Things to keep in mind when concocting behind-the-scenes conspiracy theories...

[wleakr]

I feel like there remains a fundamental problem here, and a fundamental misunderstanding between leadership here and what fans really want.

I never really liked this approach that Pro-Marriage Fans are equivalent to "Flat Earth Society". Comic fans in GENERAL are prone to speculation (it drives the whole industry), but a "Flat Earth Society" is fundamentally built around a logical fallacy that was scientifically disproven by facts and data.

You really took that "Flat Earth" comment and spun it into a web that was no way implied by Mr. Slott.

Also, IMHO, a fundamental problem are fans that speak in absolutes. All fans don't feel this way about the character or the current books. Some fans just want to be entertained.

[Kevinroc]

I think that's addressed by showing Mayday and adding context to why Mephisto did OMD to begin with.

Given what Dan said, we now know that there was never any approval to undo OMD. So that means in a scenario where Nick Spencer was writing the book with the intent to undo OMD as so many people claim is clear as day, it was knowing that editorial was not on board. I guess it's possible, maybe in this scenario there could have been a feeling that fan sentiment changed the minds of the shot callers and continued to seed teases of OMD that went unnoticed by editorial (despite there being endless online speculation on every issue). But it seems unprofessional and comes with the risk of burning one of the largest comics and entertainment employers around.

Or the other option: what we got was the agreed upon story Spencer and Marvel intended to do when they decided to work together to make a Spider-Man book.

I don't like OMD. I think undoing it would be probably the biggest thing Marvel could do period. And from my POV it would create a massive amount of goodwill and go a long way in repairing trust that I feel was betrayed by erasing a relationship that was part of the comic since I began reading it. It wouls imo be as big an impact from Marvel as DC rebirth was for DC. I would have immense respect for Marvel and it would remove the bleh feeling I have whenever I check out a Spider-Man book that "well this sucks, it sucks to support a concept like OMD." That I feel even reading a book I like. even getting excited for Ultimate Spider-Man I still feel annoyed supporting a Spider-Man book under the cloud of OMD.

But saying all that, when I read the Spencer run I didn't walk away thinking "They were absolutely building up to undo one more day and something happened at the last minute that changed the situation".

I felt like I have said I have, that they teased on doing one more day because it's a successful marketing tactic. That Kindred talking about Sins and then undoing"sins" past was Nick Spencer loudly winking at the audience.

I understand that Marvel Editorial would not have approved a story that would undo OMD.

My point was that Strange confronted Mephisto and asked about Peter's soul. In a later issue, Strange is suddenly talking about Harry's soul with no prior build-up to this moment. We have never gotten an explanation for exactly what happened either in the story or by anyone involved in the story for this. I walked away from this story wondering what had happened behind the scenes.

I don't particularly have time this weekend to get into this debate either. Just noting that this is all fuel for conspiracy theories.

[Garlador]

You really took that "Flat Earth" comment and spun it into a web that was no way implied by Mr. Slott.

Also, IMHO, a fundamental problem are fans that speak in absolutes. All fans don't feel this way about the character or the current books. Some fans just want to be entertained.

I tend to speak in "generalities" and have often made it clear that's the case. I mention this multiple times in my comments with statements like "in general" and "many fans". I'm hardly an absolutist.

Much in the same way I will almost always refrain from ad hominem attacks. It's only appropriate to attack a story itself rather than fruitlessly attack the character of the writer for the story. The story strengths and weaknesses speak for themselves without concocting additional imagined intent from the author, unless that intent is on record.

[Spider-Tiger]

I think that's addressed by showing Mayday and adding context to why Mephisto did OMD to begin with.

Given what Dan said, we now know that there was never any approval to undo OMD. So that means in a scenario where Nick Spencer was writing the book with the intent to undo OMD as so many people claim is clear as day, it was knowing that editorial was not on board. I guess it's possible, maybe in this scenario there could have been a feeling that fan sentiment changed the minds of the shot callers and continued to seed teases of OMD that went unnoticed by editorial (despite there being endless online speculation on every issue). But it seems unprofessional and comes with the risk of burning one of the largest comics and entertainment employers around.

Or the other option: what we got was the agreed upon story Spencer and Marvel intended to do when they decided to work together to make a Spider-Man book.

I don't like OMD. I think undoing it would be probably the biggest thing Marvel could do period. And from my POV it would create a massive amount of goodwill and go a long way in repairing trust that I feel was betrayed by erasing a relationship that was part of the comic since I began reading it. It wouls imo be as big an impact from Marvel as DC rebirth was for DC. I would have immense respect for Marvel and it would remove the bleh feeling I have whenever I check out a Spider-Man book that "well this sucks, it sucks to support a concept like OMD." That I feel even reading a book I like. even getting excited for Ultimate Spider-Man I still feel annoyed supporting a Spider-Man book under the cloud of OMD.

But saying all that, when I read the Spencer run I didn't walk away thinking "They were absolutely building up to undo one more day and something happened at the last minute that changed the situation".

I felt like I have said I have, that they teased on doing one more day because it's a successful marketing tactic. That Kindred talking about Sins and then undoing"sins" past was Nick Spencer loudly winking at the audience.

Wonder if the initial plan was to not necessarily "undo" OMD, but to give Peter and MJ awareness of the deal and a "win" over Mephisto that suggested a future marriage and child. Even if the marriage itself was not brought back in the present.That seems like a reasonable middle ground and outcome for Spencer's run, but perhaps editorial was afraid of going there in the end. (Don't mean to fuel any "conspiracy theories", but it did seem odd that Spencer would even go there if he was flat out told no from the start.)

[bob.schoonover]

I understand that Marvel Editorial would not have approved a story that would undo OMD.

My point was that Strange confronted Mephisto and asked about Peter's soul. In a later issue, Strange is suddenly talking about Harry's soul with no prior build-up to this moment. We have never gotten an explanation for exactly what happened either in the story or by anyone involved in the story for this. I walked away from this story wondering what had happened behind the scenes.

I don't particularly have time this weekend to get into this debate either. Just noting that this is all fuel for conspiracy theories.

I think (and I hope I'm not seen as debating here - I think I'm mostly on your side on this) that everyone can be kind of right on this. Spencer was definitely alluding to OMD, but that doesn't mean he was alluding to overturning it. It certainly seems like the story changed midstream at least somewhat (the Dr Strange confrontation goes nowhere, for example, but there are other weird plot points that go nowhere or are non sequiturs that don't seem consistent with Spencer's talent), but I think the main gist was always meant to justify/re-contextualize OMD. That is, I think it was always intended to imply that Mephisto got involved in Peter's life (and Norman's, and Ben's, and Miles's, and Otto's)* because of premonitions of Mayday (or other progeny) being his ultimate downfall, I think it was never intended that OMD would be undone, BUT where I think the changes occurred (that, to be clear, I think happened, but do not know happened), were with Peter's cognizance of The Deal.

ETA: Looks like Spider Tiger and I were thinking along the same lines

*Whatever qualms one has with the Spider Office, one can note that the books come out on time and there are never unintentional repetitions of plots EXCEPT when, in relatively short order, Miles (March 2019), Ben (Oct 2018), and Otto (December 2019) all made deals with Mephisto before Last Rites (October 2020, and delayed by COVID, probably would have come out in July w/o the pandemic)

[boots]

No, what I'm saying is that all that build up with the clear forshadowing of the undoing of OMD.

I can say with confidence as someone who has worked in a related industry that some of the interpretations that the audience become certain of ... are never what the creative team intended.

And from an outside perspective, I can see how they've arrived at those conclusions but those conclusions can also be heavily informed by their own bias and wish-listing (not a criticism, that's a natural part of story engagement).

This outside perspective then catches fire online, becoming amplified and validated by other outside opinions until it evolves into some sort of ironclad internet truth even though it's based on limited insight.

I've even seen creatives share the story notes written at the beginning of an arc to prove a point about intentions, and fans will still try and debunk those as false or heavily extrapolate a different meaning from them.

Sometimes it's worth setting aside our personal belief for a second and genuinely considering the other options. If they really don't make sense of their own merits, then let them fail on those.

All that being said, I have no idea what the truth is in this particular situation...just floating another take.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I think (and I hope I'm not seen as debating here - I think I'm mostly on your side on this) that everyone can be kind of right on this. Spencer was definitely alluding to OMD, but that doesn't mean he was alluding to overturning it.

Didn't mean to quote you specifically, but since I've seen many comments to the same effect in the thread, I don't think we should classify Spencer as wanting to undo OMD as a "conspiracy" anymore. Cebulksi has already flat out admitted changes happened, and then Dan, who works with the same people we are debating, said Nick did want to undo OMD. Of course, we're going into more theorizing, but I don't think we then enter "conspiracy" territory so much as making logical assumptions that are grounded in the same fact Slott gave us.

We did have DeFalco literally seeding baby May's return for all of his post-Clone Saga run, but Harras had made it clear he would have no resolution to that; he just wanted to keep the readers engaged. Spencer might just be similar, or same case - he'd hoped by the finish line the powers that be would have come around or some such.

(At least, that's my take.)

[boots]

We did have DeFalco literally seeding baby May's return for all of his post-Clone Saga run, but Harras had made it clear he would have no resolution to that; he just wanted to keep the readers engaged. Spencer might just be similar, or same case - he'd hoped by the finish line the powers that be would have come around or some such.

(At least, that's my take.)

What I've noticed in shared universes is that authors/writers will sometimes put in an "offer" into the story for the IP or future creatives to take or leave. Often the offer is just a plot hook with no real masterplan behind it at the time of writing.

[Xix25]

All in all, I'm not too impressed by how this is a bigger topic than any actual main comic issue, which doesn't speak highly of the creative effort going on at the moment. Don't think this thread helps either when little of substance is being offered to try to shut down the conspiracy mongering.

[Kurus]

All in all, I'm not too impressed by how this is a bigger topic than any actual main comic issue, which doesn't speak highly of the creative effort going on at the moment. Don't think this thread helps either when little of substance is being offered to try to shut down the conspiracy mongering.

If anything, Dan’s comments have only inflamed speculation, not simmered it down.

[bob.schoonover]

Didn't mean to quote you specifically, but since I've seen many comments to the same effect in the thread, I don't think we should classify Spencer as wanting to undo OMD as a "conspiracy" anymore. Cebulksi has already flat out admitted changes happened, and then Dan, who works with the same people we are debating, said Nick did want to undo OMD. Of course, we're going into more theorizing, but I don't think we then enter "conspiracy" territory so much as making logical assumptions that are grounded in the same fact Slott gave us.

We did have DeFalco literally seeding baby May's return for all of his post-Clone Saga run, but Harras had made it clear he would have no resolution to that; he just wanted to keep the readers engaged. Spencer might just be similar, or same case - he'd hoped by the finish line the powers that be would have come around or some such.

(At least, that's my take.)

I guess I'm distinguishing between "Nick Spencer's personal preference" and "Nick Spencer's professional ability" - that Nick wanted to write MJ and Peter married doesn't mean he wasn't capable of writing a story that ended w/o changing the status quo. Cebulski said they changed something (a few things?) and downplayed their seriousness - it's not like he'd ever say out loud "Oh, we changed ALL SORTS OF THINGS" so I'm not taking that as gospel - but, again, the changes could have been to things like Nick wanting Peter to know about the deal, OG Harry being resurrected, the "Mayday is the downfall of Mephisto" story being more fleshed out, etc. The story is enough of a mess at the end that there are MANY options for where editorial took a heavy hand.

I think there are 3 somewhat obvious ways to take what we know and turn them into a reasonable guess at what happened behind the scenes:

1. Spencer and Lowe originally had an agreement that Spencer could undo OMD, and this got scuttled the second the higher ups found out about it

2. Spencer and Lowe had an agreement that Spencer could reference OMD explicitly (but not overturn it), and this got scuttled during the pandemic

3. The story on the page is more or less what Spencer intended, but sped up a bit because of his departure.

These are not entirely discrete - they're more of a continuum. It's hard to imagine "Nick Spencer thought he could undo OMD w/o anyone noticing", so I omitted that one, but I'm happy to hear arguments for it, and if you want, we can call that the 0 argument.

I am not inclined to believe it's close to 3 for a number of reasons (I think Spencer is a better writer and plotter than what we got is a big one, but I can expand), and I think 1 (and 0!) seem pretty unlikely, too, because neither Nick seems like the "go completely rogue" type (and if Lowe had done so, he'd have been quietly pushed out, I'd imagine). I'm somewhere in the 2-2.4 range. I think the story we got differs from the original plan, but the substance of the differences are more along the lines of "Harry was going to explain to Peter exactly how OMD was the genesis of the whole Kindred story" than "Kindred was the means to get the triumphant Peter/MJ showdown with Mephisto that some fans so desire"

ETA: I should add that I think, if I'm correct, that the reason editorial scuttled Harry telling Peter about OMD is that it's hard to imagine Peter just letting that information sit forever, so Peter finding out about the deal would inevitably lead to it having to be overturned

[boots]

If anything, Dan’s comments have only inflamed speculation, not simmered it down.

It's pretty typical when someone attempts to debunk or balance out conspiracy theory/urban legend. Believers tend to double down

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I guess I'm distinguishing between "Nick Spencer's personal preference" and "Nick Spencer's professional ability" - that Nick wanted to write MJ and Peter married doesn't mean he wasn't capable of writing a story that ended w/o changing the status quo. Cebulski said they changed something (a few things?) and downplayed their seriousness - it's not like he'd ever say out loud "Oh, we changed ALL SORTS OF THINGS" so I'm not taking that as gospel - but, again, the changes could have been to things like Nick wanting Peter to know about the deal, OG Harry being resurrected, the "Mayday is the downfall of Mephisto" story being more fleshed out, etc. The story is enough of a mess at the end that there are MANY options for where editorial took a heavy hand.

I think there are 3 somewhat obvious ways to take what we know and turn them into a reasonable guess at what happened behind the scenes:

1. Spencer and Lowe originally had an agreement that Spencer could undo OMD, and this got scuttled the second the higher ups found out about it

2. Spencer and Lowe had an agreement that Spencer could reference OMD explicitly (but not overturn it), and this got scuttled during the pandemic

3. The story on the page is more or less what Spencer intended, but sped up a bit because of his departure.

These are not entirely discrete - they're more of a continuum. It's hard to imagine "Nick Spencer thought he could undo OMD w/o anyone noticing", so I omitted that one, but I'm happy to hear arguments for it, and if you want, we can call that the 0 argument.

I am not inclined to believe it's close to 3 for a number of reasons (I think Spencer is a better writer and plotter than what we got is a big one, but I can expand), and I think 1 (and 0!) seem pretty unlikely, too, because neither Nick seems like the "go completely rogue" type (and if Lowe had done so, he'd have been quietly pushed out, I'd imagine). I'm somewhere in the 2-2.4 range. I think the story we got differs from the original plan, but the substance of the differences are more along the lines of "Harry was going to explain to Peter exactly how OMD was the genesis of the whole Kindred story" than "Kindred was the means to get the triumphant Peter/MJ showdown with Mephisto that some fans so desire"

ETA: I should add that I think, if I'm correct, that the reason editorial scuttled Harry telling Peter about OMD is that it's hard to imagine Peter just letting that information sit forever, so Peter finding out about the deal would inevitably lead to it having to be overturned

Yeah, I'm in agreement with most of what you said there. We know Nick wanted to undo it, that's one thing. I have no reason to doubt what Slott said, that editorial made it clear every step of the way it wouldn't happen; that's why I mentioned DeFalco, as he knew his own story wouldn't happen, either, but he pushed on with the baby May stuff.

The biggest issue was how opaquely the subject was dealt with, with mostly silence from all parties (except Cebulski's comment, that, as you very well put it, is vague enough to just allow even more questions into the mix). I, myself, also never believed OMD was going to be removed or fixed by the end of his run, so much as I thought the characters would just be made aware of it - or, something to the same song and tune of "to be continued" we got with Peter and MJ's daughter bringing down Mephisto, only with less contradictions for the story thus far.

We also had Gage being brought on in the very last issue as a writer - we can't really affirm for sure what his role was, but when this happens, it's not unheard of that the writer basically wanted to tell one story, and the compromise was basically letting another person also have a stab at it if it diverged (as it happened in OMD itself, of all things; JMS said Quesada wrote much of the ending pages in that arc). Obviously, this isn't a gotcha or anything - Spencer could have just run out of time or some such (of course, the twins vastly differ from the previous issue in what they are, being more the entities in control than merely Harry's vessel, so there is also that. Either way, it's only more hypothesis as far as that's concerned.

If we are to be charitable, the closest we've heard that would allow us to discern how things went down would basically be a push for "3" in the list you've made; but it's from Bleeding Cool of all places, that, well, industry pros usually tell to stay away from unless you want gossip and not so much "good info". In that article, Johnston claimed Spencer's run had to be shortened as he hastened his departure, and that if he hadn't left early, the off-point plot beats would basically have aligned. If that's the case, though, "some stuff was changed, but we didn't shove it down anyone's throats" would be a very curious way for Cebulski to word things, opposite "Nick had to leave early; so the story was shortened". And, even still, he ended that very same article by saying "so, even if Spencer wanted to undo OMD, he wouldn't be able to" (which would circle around to Dan's explanation, honestly; but then it kind of becomes a 'damned if you, damned if you don't' - the article seemed to claim Spencer was always going with Sins Past; but then, there would be no reason to remark "if he did want it, he couldn't" - you'd just have to say that it was a big story telling gotcha all along, instead of hypothesizing he couldn't be able to play the subversion straight otherwise).

[HypnoHustler]

I'm no mind reader. I can't tell you how or why (or by how much) each book is promoted the way it is. But I can tell you this much: Marvel is a company. Marvel always wants the answer that will make them the most money. And Marvel *hates* to waste money. They would never do anything to willfully sabotage a comic that they were spending good money on. They never want ANY book to perform poorly. They would never hire a writer, penciler, inker, or colorist for a book they somehow "wanted to fail". They would never want to damage their relationships with those creators. They would never want to waste that editorial office's time on such a counterproductive endeavor.

Except that one time the notorious Vice President Bill Jemas decided he was a better writer than Peter David and started a sales competition called U-Decide pitting his hilariously bad Marville comic against PAD’s Captain Marvel, and the winning book would survive. And of course, Jemas convincingly lost his own silly bet and left the company soon after. His book is now remembered as one of the worst comics of all time.

So yeah, there was that one time. And this also serves as a good example for why readers sometimes feel like Marvel has its head up its a**. Although granted this was 20 years ago and the guy is long gone.

[Aura Blaize]

Wonder if the initial plan was to not necessarily "undo" OMD, but to give Peter and MJ awareness of the deal and a "win" over Mephisto that suggested a future marriage and child. Even if the marriage itself was not brought back in the present.That seems like a reasonable middle ground and outcome for Spencer's run, but perhaps editorial was afraid of going there in the end. (Don't mean to fuel any "conspiracy theories", but it did seem odd that Spencer would even go there if he was flat out told no from the start.)

This is what I thought. Not that it would be undone (which would really do as much damage at this point as the initial erasure), but that it would be...I dunno..replaced? That despite Mephisto's machinations, their love was stronger than anything and it overcame it. It wasn't some magic "undo" button but organic growth. And many fans seemed to be fine with that.

But for being a business, they sure as hell are adamant about not giving the fans what they want at this point. It's pretty ridiculous all things told.