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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurus View Post
    I really don’t see the point of getting bent out of shape over what random people on the internet are saying. Seems like a waste of time too me.
    No one falls into comics. Fans work hard to get INTO comics. Comics are edited by people who are fans first, they're written by fans, drawn by fans, colored, by fans, and lettered by fans. And they do care what fans think. People who work on comics are also, like everyone else, people who go online. And, like everybody else, they like spending time on social media. And when you mix all that together, it can get a bit scary.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    No one falls into comics. Fans work hard to get INTO comics. Comics are edited by people who are fans first, they're written by fans, drawn by fans, colored, by fans, and lettered by fans. And they do care what fans think. People who work on comics are also, like everyone else, people who go online. And, like everybody else, they like spending time on social media. And when you mix all that together, it can get a bit scary.
    Separating the art from the artist, the story from the storyteller, isn't just something fans should keep in mind. Creatives should also not lose themselves in the reception of their creations.

    Social media is a bottomless hole of diverse opinions. If one goes looking for conflict, they will find it without fail. Even the most angry criticism exists because people CARE about what is happening, and that's an important takeaway. As always, keep feedback in mind and take it seriously, even negative responses. But no one - fan or creator alike - should get to a point where it starts to eat into their wellbeing.

    Life is best lived OFF the printed page... and the internet.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    ...so I did an experiment with the most objective source I could find - a soulless AI algorithm - and asked ChatGPT what the biggest problem fans have with Spider-Man as a comic is currently.
    That's not an objective source though. AI combs the internet. AI reflects back what the internet puts in. And the internet is not real life.
    The internet can be a receptacle for the worst of us-- or, more accurately, the noisiest, and the most vitriolic.

    See articles like this: "Twitter taught Microsoft’s AI chatbot to be a racist ******* in less than a day"
    https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/1...chatbot-racist

    Remember the story of the 24/7 Seinfeld Twitch stream and why it had to go offline?
    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/twitch-...arks-rcna69389

    I can 100% guarantee you that the concerns of the noisiest and most vitriolic online Spider-Man fans do NOT line up with the fans who show up each and every month at the register. All the online soothsayers who are CONVINCED that Nick Lowe should be fired or that Zeb Wells is cratering on ASM and that his departure is imminent... their heads would explode if they saw the actual sales figures for ASM. Those figures unveil a reality that is 180 degrees different the dark fantasy people like to fabricate online.
    ASM sales are NOT a sure thing. I watched for close to 8 years where Avengers ruled the roost for books that sold the most-- and books that took the top spots in Marvel's yearly sales figures. ASM right now-- this past year-- this run that everyone online has been Chicken-Little-ing about? It's an unstoppable juggernaut that is dominating the charts. Both Lowe and Wells are locks. I kinda wish all of the comics were under one distributor again so people could just click on sites like Comichron and there wouldn't be any debate. The reality does not match up with the fantasy a lot of people are hoping is true-- mainly because they've found dozens-- or even hundreds-- of people who agree with them online.

  4. #34
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    People online also like to pit creators against each other. Which is beyond weird. Because we are all incredibly supportive of each other in the real world.
    As a Spider-Man fan I loved reading stories by Chip. I think PETER PARKER: THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #6, #310, and SPIDER-MAN: LIFE STORY are three of the best damn Spider-Man stories of all-time! As a fan, I'm always hoping to read MORE Chip Zdarsky Spidey stories in the future.

  5. #35
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    People online also like to pit creators against each other. Which is beyond weird. Because we are all incredibly supportive of each other in the real world.
    As a Spider-Man fan I loved reading stories by Chip. I think PETER PARKER: THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN #6, #310, and SPIDER-MAN: LIFE STORY are three of the best damn Spider-Man stories of all-time! As a fan, I'm always hoping to read MORE Chip Zdarsky Spidey stories in the future.
    I see the internet is very excited for Hickman and Checchetto's upcoming Ultimate Spider-Man. How excited are you for that book?

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    That's not an objective source though. AI combs the internet. AI reflects back what the internet puts in. And the internet is not real life.
    The internet can be a receptacle for the worst of us-- or, more accurately, the noisiest, and the most vitriolic.

    See articles like this: "Twitter taught Microsoft’s AI chatbot to be a racist ******* in less than a day"
    https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/1...chatbot-racist

    Remember the story of the 24/7 Seinfeld Twitch stream and why it had to go offline?
    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/twitch-...arks-rcna69389

    I can 100% guarantee you that the concerns of the noisiest and most vitriolic online Spider-Man fans do NOT line up with the fans who show up each and every month at the register. All the online soothsayers who are CONVINCED that Nick Lowe should be fired or that Zeb Wells is cratering on ASM and that his departure is imminent... their heads would explode if they saw the actual sales figures for ASM. Those figures unveil a reality that is 180 degrees different the dark fantasy people like to fabricate online.
    ASM sales are NOT a sure thing. I watched for close to 8 years where Avengers ruled the roost for books that sold the most-- and books that took the top spots in Marvel's yearly sales figures. ASM right now-- this past year-- this run that everyone online has been Chicken-Little-ing about? It's an unstoppable juggernaut that is dominating the charts. Both Lowe and Wells are locks. I kinda wish all of the comics were under one distributor again so people could just click on sites like Comichron and there wouldn't be any debate. The reality does not match up with the fantasy a lot of people are hoping is true-- mainly because they've found dozens-- or even hundreds-- of people who agree with them online.
    This is evading the actual point of criticism - and it is independent of SALES. The AI response I see mirrors what I certainly see everywhere online - here, Twitter, Discord, Reddit, Facebook, etc., so its answer doesn't surprise me. You focus a lot on sales - and as a business that certainly speaks loudest - but narrative criticism and quality is divorced from sales. Some of the most acclaimed works of media outright flop and some of the most intellectually empty stories are huge sales successes.

    But it's never binary, and I wish fans and creators alike would stop treating it as such. I can pay for something and still be critical of it. Often, buying and experiencing it is the only way to be fully objective with your criticisms. I have given money to films and comics and games I hated, but had to experience them first before formulating an educated critique based on those experiences. I'm certainly not alone in buying into a sunken cost fallacy of supporting something I truly loved once far longer than I should have in the vain hope that it will inevitably turn a corner and get back on track.

    One of my former instructors recently mentioned a difficult choice was made with a video game they had developed, one that alienated a majority of their fanbase. But the ones that remained were loyal no matter how bad things got and, more importantly, were willing to pay substantially more for microtransactions and other additional-fee content. They lost over 80% of their players, but the 20% that remained outspent the 80% that left, so the game simply pivoted to catering to those customers that didn't care about the quality and only wanted to keep paying for new cosmetics and weapon skins. The other 80% were never wrong in their criticisms - the game substantially got worse in execution - but if sales are the only metric that matters then it was just business to ignore the majority who demanded better and just appease the vast minority that outspent them each month.

    That's a different medium, but my point remains that criticisms of content are not equitable to sales. As already mentioned, great things often fail while substandard dreck can roll in the cash.

    Edit: to clarify, I'm not targeting any specific books as "substandard". Opinions vary. Some of my favorite titles have been cancelled prematurely, and some stuff simply chugged along. Many of the targets of derision lately have written some excellent titles.
    Last edited by Garlador; 11-18-2023 at 02:52 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I see the internet is very excited for Hickman and Checchetto's upcoming Ultimate Spider-Man. How excited are you for that book?
    Very much so! Checchetto's artwork is incredible and Jonathan is one of the best writers in comics! I'm looking forward to this-- and the same goes for Cody & Justin's SPIDER-PUNK series, and Greg & Humberto on SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MEN!

  8. #38
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    I don't think there's much to worry about unless you let it affect you.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    This is evading the actual point of criticism - and it is independent of SALES. You focus a lot on sales - and as a business that certainly speaks loudest - but narrative criticism and quality is divorced from sales. Some of the most acclaimed works of media outright flop and some of the most intellectually empty stories are huge sales successes.
    I think there's a huge way that monthly comics are different. We're Scheherazade. People don't just vote for us at the register once, they keep voting for us at the register. We spin a tale once a month. We live or die by our "To Be Continued" moments and cliffhangers. Will you come back?

    Criticism on any issue can be radically different for radically different critics and/or readers. For some the porridge will be too hot, for others it will be too cold, and, yeah, for some it will be just right. But the big question is: Will you come back for another bowl. And that's sales. Books live and die by their sales. That's the big/final metric. That's the yes-or-no vote.

  10. #40
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    That seems awfully close to excusing bad writing because it 'sells' in a way 'some people' like...

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xix25 View Post
    That seems awfully close to excusing bad writing because it 'sells' in a way 'some people' like...
    That sounds like a way of saying a lot of people who choose to follow a book they like are wrong because they don't like what you specifically like.

  12. #42
    Fantastic Member Kurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    That sounds like a way of saying a lot of people who choose to follow a book they like are wrong because they don't like what you specifically like.
    Because people have never made anything shitty a massive success before. If we’re just going to say that everything that sells is automatically good then we might as well shut this place down. What’s the point about arguing the merits of certain pieces of art if the only metric we use is sales. Just accept that anything that sells is good. How boring would that be?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    That sounds like a way of saying a lot of people who choose to follow a book they like are wrong because they don't like what you specifically like.
    Apart from misrepresenting my post, is the sentiment really impossible to comprehend? Or is this just denial?

    My original point on not caring too much still stands though.

  14. #44
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    Let's put it another way:
    Marvel is a business. End of the day, they follow the sales.
    Marvel chooses to look at how fans vote at the register as their metric to whether keep books going, whether to cancel them, whether to spin them out into more boooks.
    They use that metric to decide who to hire and who to put under contract.

    Those sales can be used both in ways to produce more of what's popular.
    Those sales can also be used to keep a cult hit going-- because even though the sales may be low, the sales are consistent and unwavering.

    The sales of a video game or movie might be used as an indicator for why Marvel might take a risk on developing a new title.

    Marvel follows the money, because Marvel is a business.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xix25 View Post
    Apart from misrepresenting my post...
    Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    If I "misrepresented" your post, then it was in an exact equal measure for how you were choosing to interpret my earlier post. Fair?

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