Do you think we'll ever see Tim and Stephanie as a pairing again

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That's more of a problem with the writing rather than the idea itself. If DC wants to commit to this, putting more effort into making Bernard a more fleshed out character, that's an easier fix. (Also, not sure if saying that because the one series flopped means that Bernard is a failed idea. No one is taking the series' lackluster performance as evidence that Tim is a character no one cares about any more and no longer has a place in DC.)



It might not last, but saying "but Olicity" won't make it happen. It's wait and see right now.



Dunno how to break this to you, but Tim/Steph are not an iconic comic book couple. Not even close (remember how many adaptations have used it in the decades since it became a thing?). Jessica Jones and Luke Cage have a better claim to being iconic. Not saying they won't come back ever, but, if DC wanted to end them as a couple for all time, it would be a seamless transition. Heck, if anything, becoming more than Tim's girlfriend really let Steph come into her own (maybe even exceed Tim's role as the "normal" Bat-Family member).

The difference is Tim's solo was heavily premised on Bernard and not to mention the attempts to push Bernard via including him. Seems like a good indicator that he flopped.

They aren't iconic but they still are beloved by many and bringing it back twice despite death and universal erasure which they did for other couples is a testament it has staying power.

Batgirl 2009 was good and does support your view but Stephanie became popular and beloved during her time with Tim and was a well rounded character then.

Right now Stephanie doesn't have anything and is either used as the other Batgirl compared to Cass and Babs or a closet for Tim to avoid/prop for his new status quo. Breaking her and Tim up didn't magically fix the issues which plagued her.

[Godlike13]

Its also a good indicator that Tim flopped.

[Jackalope89]

Its also a good indicator that Tim flopped.

Belly-flopped, even. From the high dive.

[WebLurker]

The difference is Tim's solo was heavily premised on Bernard and not to mention the attempts to push Bernard via including him. Seems like a good indicator that he flopped.

From what I gathered, the problems with the series went deeper than Bernard. Heck, Bernard seemed to be one thing people like about modern Tim (or at least not mind), from what I can gather. Frankly, I still think that if the series flopping was a judgement on anything, it was more of a judgement on Tim (it's no secret that DC has been unable to find a good place for him after Damien Wayne became the main Robin and kinda seems like Tim has lost a good deal of his '90s popularity).

They aren't iconic but they still are beloved by many and bringing it back twice despite death and universal erasure which they did for other couples is a testament it has staying power.

Enough staying power that DC broke them up offscreen and has stayed the course for a few years now (up to and including rewriting things to have Tim essentially say that he realized that they were wrong for each other and unfairly thinking that she only wanted to be with him because he was a superhero)?

Batgirl 2009 was good and does support your view but Stephanie became popular and beloved during her time with Tim and was a well rounded character then.

Guess it's a question of what would suite her character best now.

Right now Stephanie doesn't have anything and is either used as the other Batgirl compared to Cass and Babs or a closet for Tim to avoid/prop for his new status quo. Breaking her and Tim up didn't magically fix the issues which plagued her.

Wasn't breaking them up to service Tim's story? (Ironic, IMHO, given how him dumping and ghosting her made him look bad, to the point that, unless future writers find a magic fix, it's sure going to look like Steph went crawling back to a jerk who didn't deserve her if they have them become a couple again.)

Also, what issues? Steph as a character can stand on her own two feet without being the love interest and the way the breakup was written had her coming out without any damage. She was a lead character in her own series until recently (liked that one; wish it was still in production) and being an extended cast member without a series is pretty common in these large franchises. Not sure what you're getting at here.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

From what I gathered, the problems with the series went deeper than Bernard. Heck, Bernard seemed to be one thing people like about modern Tim (or at least not mind), from what I can gather. Frankly, I still think that if the series flopping was a judgement on anything, it was more of a judgement on Tim (it's no secret that DC has been unable to find a good place for him after Damien Wayne became the main Robin and kinda seems like Tim has lost a good deal of his '90s popularity).



Enough staying power that DC broke them up offscreen and has stayed the course for a few years now (up to and including rewriting things to have Tim essentially say that he realized that they were wrong for each other and unfairly thinking that she only wanted to be with him because he was a superhero)?



Guess it's a question of what would suite her character best now.



Wasn't breaking them up to service Tim's story? (Ironic, IMHO, given how him dumping and ghosting her made him look bad, to the point that, unless future writers find a magic fix, it's sure going to look like Steph went crawling back to a jerk who didn't deserve her if they have them become a couple again.)

Also, what issues? Steph as a character can stand on her own two feet without being the love interest and the way the breakup was written had her coming out without any damage. She was a lead character in her own series until recently (liked that one; wish it was still in production) and being an extended cast member without a series is pretty common in these large franchises. Not sure what you're getting at here.

What are you talking about? A common consensus is that Bernard is boring and widely disliked. Many critics of the Tim's solo pointed it out how a big problem was Bernard and his lack of character. He's widely disliked and only "liked" by shippers who are like "ooooooooh pretty boys" and didn't even buy the books. I'd say the series flopping is more of an indicator of what the writer doing and writing of him wasn't what his fans wanted or appealed to a sustainable audience.

Peter and MJ were also broken up offscreen and still are and have MJ saying stuff like how she was more responsible with Paul than with Peter. Not to mention Batcat is still broken up after hyping up the wedding and so is Bruce and Talia.

Yeah he treated her super shitty that but again Selina left Bruce at the alter and look at the stuff between Peter and MJ.

Issue was more how DC didn't magically start caring for her. The series was cancelled and she is without a place like Babs or Cass. Not to mention how people still take potshtos at Steph such as in DC YJ or DC Pride

[CPSparkles]

What are you talking about? A common consensus is that Bernard is boring and widely disliked. Many critics of the Tim's solo pointed it out how a big problem was Bernard and his lack of character. He's widely disliked and only "liked" by shippers who are like "ooooooooh pretty boys" and didn't even buy the books. I'd say the series flopping is more of an indicator of what the writer doing and writing of him wasn't what his fans wanted or appealed to a sustainable audience.

Peter and MJ were also broken up offscreen and still are and have MJ saying stuff like how she was more responsible with Paul than with Peter. Not to mention Batcat is still broken up after hyping up the wedding and so is Bruce and Talia.

Yeah he treated her super shitty that but again Selina left Bruce at the alter and look at the stuff between Peter and MJ.

Issue was more how DC didn't magically start caring for her. The series was cancelled and she is without a place like Babs or Cass. Not to mention how people still take potshtos at Steph such as in DC YJ or DC Pride

You are mistaking bernard specific discussions on threads like these for the actual reviews of the book. Reviews at times didn't like the story, Tim's direction or the art

In comic book round up, some noted the pacing/where the story was headed, the main antagonist and the world building.

Aside from the issue where they had dinner with the folks the relationship didn't have that much focus. Most of what we got on their love life was Tim's inner thoughts.


The few times bernard/the relationship came up some considered him bland, hopes that a better writer will get the chance to flesh him out or that the relationship was rushed/ was happening off panel.

I've yet to see anyone who outright dislikes him. He's barely a character so there's not enough to the character dislike. We are still wanting to get a feel for him.

I would also like to remind you that his portrayals in Urban Legends, the Pride story and in Zardarsky's Backup story were met with very positive responses.

Agreed. In the last 10 years [give/take]what DC has been doing with Tim hasn't been what his fans wanted and hasn't appealed to a sustainable audience.

[CPSparkles]

I'd rather explore Steph's dynamic with other characters and Bat fam than see her hook up with tim again.

I don't dislike the pairing, I just feel that I've read that story, seen that dynamic now I'm more interested in seeing her teaming up/ interaction with new people.

Like I'm far more interested in Steph and Jason or Steph and Kate working together.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

You are mistaking bernard specific discussions on threads like these for the actual reviews of the book. Reviews at times didn't like the story, Tim's direction or the art

In comic book round up, some noted the pacing/where the story was headed, the main antagonist and the world building.

Aside from the issue where they had dinner with the folks the relationship didn't have that much focus. Most of what we got on their love life was Tim's inner thoughts.


The few times bernard/the relationship came up some considered him bland, hopes that a better writer will get the chance to flesh him out or that the relationship was rushed/ was happening off panel.

I've yet to see anyone who outright dislikes him. He's barely a character so there's not enough to the character dislike. We are still wanting to get a feel for him.

I would also like to remind you that his portrayals in Urban Legends, the Pride story and in Zardarsky's Backup story were met with very positive responses.

Agreed. In the last 10 years [give/take]what DC has been doing with Tim hasn't been what his fans wanted and hasn't appealed to a sustainable audience.

Again a common complaint of the story and the series was the lack of Bernard having a character or the story relying on a false meta history of them being friends to seel the pairing.

And what do you mean his "portrayals were met with very positive responses" From where? i saw a lot of dislike in those too from again, his lack of utter character and in UL he was criticized for being brought back so randomly and Tim falling for him for little to no reason, and his sudden ability to fight with no explanation, in the pride story again he was criticized for just sounding like a generic bland BF who Tim talking about was hard to buy given his lack of character and again in Zdarsky Batman he didn't do anything and many people felt again he still lacks a character and the moment was unearned. I've seen plenty of Bernard dislike precislely because he has no character.

[Rac7d*]

WFA doesn't reference Dick and Babs dating (or Dick and Kory) as well or Jason and Artemis.

The Olicity argument is relevant as Olicity was something that was shown to be more mainstream via the Arrow adaption and got more exposure than Dinah and Ollie and was adapted into the comics and became source material. And yet despite this and the push it fizzled out.

I’m pretty sure we saw dick and Babs get married in the web comic

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That was the Red Hood one which isn't canon to WFA

[WebLurker]

That was the Red Hood one which isn't canon to WFA

All the webcomics have crossed over in Wayne Family Adventures at one point or another.

[Jackalope89]

All the webcomics have crossed over in Wayne Family Adventures at one point or another.

The Red Hood one was its own continuity. The writers of both series have said that they are not canonical to one another.

[Hypestyle]

Pretty self-explanatory question. Do you think we will see them together again in some shape or form?

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hopefully as a team up comic for an ongoing series.

[Jackalope89]

Oh, to answer the original question of the thread; Steph deserves better. She deserves someone that won't suddenly ghost her with no explanation and treat her as an afterthought. Before this whole Bernard thing, the two of them being together was about the one thing his last writer did right while at DC. But now, well, he's toxic (in a relationship way).

[WebLurker]

The Red Hood one was its own continuity. The writers of both series have said that they are not canonical to one another.

So, more of an Easter egg than anything else?

Oh, to answer the original question of the thread; Steph deserves better. She deserves someone that won't suddenly ghost her with no explanation and treat her as an afterthought. Before this whole Bernard thing, the two of them being together was about the one thing his last writer did right while at DC. But now, well, he's toxic (in a relationship way).

Guess it's how much you approach it in-universe vs. the meta thing (e.g. "they've treated each other badly in the stories" vs. "it was the writers' agenda to make them bad," if that makes any sense).