Do you think we'll ever see Tim and Stephanie as a pairing again

[Noodle]

Aside from Neil Gaiman?

Here is what Tumblr really does....

It can make something look bigger than it really is because you have folks take what little is out there and put it there.

For a LOT of folks that website is their promotion. Which is why you see a lot of fitness, photographers and models on there.

So if you take Bernard-it will have all his appearances on there with some fanart and so on. So IF and I do mean IF someone gets interested and seeks stuff with him.

Guess what you got some slim pickings in material.

And remember a lot of this goes back to marketing the right combination.

We saw this in the 90s with the original Charlotte Hornets being tops in NBA sales. It had little to do with Larry Johnson or Alonzo Mourning. The teams colors like the Raiders, Bulls and Cowboys helped in selling clothes and you had folks who couldn't tell you the names of the players outside of a few or even watched sports.

You severely overestimate the popularity of Tumblr so you can use it as a scapegoat of what you view are issues with the comics industry. 5-10 years ago maybe. But in 2023? Barely anyone uses Tumblr, much less anyone under 30.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

"But Olicity..." isn't a good argument, and is kind of a different situation. That was an element of a singular adaptation vs. something from the source material that's been used a few times across modern media. Back when the X-Men: Evolution animated series was running, the unrequited love story between Rogue and Cyclops (albeit apparently not so unrequited in the series' epilogue) was pretty popular (still seems to be among people who watch and rewatch it), it never bled back into the comics. However, that's irrelevant to what the comics writers want to do with Cyclops' love life.

Tim/Bernard is a source material element. Love it or hate it, Tim/Bernard was not only adapted into the shows/movies/whatever before Tim/Steph, Tim/Steph has never explicitly appeared outside the comics, and Steph's first trans-comic romance was with Harper Row (which, seeing as Harper was created to be as Cassandra Cain stand-in, could mean that, from a certain point of view, the non-canon Steph/Cass ship got adapted before Tim/Steph, too).

As a Spider-Man fan, I can assure you that if the editors of a comic want to do something, it's success or lack thereof outside of the comics themselves is irrelevant to the agenda (the comic writers hate Peter/MJ, but they're still the official couple of the franchise as a whole). So, if the writers and editors want Tim/Bernard to be an official couple and erase Steph as his one true love (or whatever), I don't think the adaptations of it not flying will matter that much.

At the end of the day, we don't know what the future plans are for the characters or what future creators will want to do with them, but I think we can safely say that Tim/Steph isn't set in stone the way Spider-Man/Mary Jane or Superman/Lois Lane is (or even Flash II/Linda Park, if you want an example of a pairing that DC has worked hard to erase and survived) and that Bernard going away isn't a given.

They adopted Olicity in the comics (thereby becoming source material and tried to push it.....but it still didn't take off and hasn't been seen since.

Recently in Bunker's holiday christmas special there was a party for LGBTQ+ DC heroes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...enjoy_bunkers/

and Tim/Bernard was absent. Even obscure characters were there.

[CPSparkles]

They adopted Olicity in the comics (thereby becoming source material and tried to push it.....but it still didn't take off and hasn't been seen since.

Recently in Bunker's holiday christmas special there was a party for LGBTQ+ DC heroes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...enjoy_bunkers/

and Tim/Bernard was absent. Even obscure characters were there.

You really want your Fav ship back together I get it but at some point you have to realise that Tim isn't going to be dating steph or any girl for a long while.

Bernard is boring, Tim's solo bombed, they weren't at some party, whatever.
All true but that doesn't change anything.

The point is Tim Drake's purpose is LGBTQ+ rep. He doesn't sell so he might as well bring in some progressive points by ticking a diversity box.

If not Bernard then it's going to be some other boy.

It sucks your fav couple is no longer a thing but constantly searching for news about Tim/Bern and repeated postings of Tim/Steph on reddit isn't the best way to deal.

The fact is that till Tim dating a dude is normalised he's only going to be dating dudes.
There really is no incentive to have Tim date a girl and it's going to be a while before Tim gets an ongoing so there's no place to explore it.

Stay away from what you dislike.

[WebLurker]

Considering the "Tim gets kidnapped" has had more references than Bernard in Wayne Family Adventures, with NO mention of Bernard in any capacity, I'd say it may be pretty well done going forward.

Granted, the webcomic isn't really for serialized storytelling or have much room for characters outside of the central ones, so I'm not how much a canary it is for Bernard's coal mine. (Heck, I'm a little surprised that Batman and Catwoman being in a committed relationship has been a constant through the episodes). That said, have noticed, for as much as the writers love references and deep cuts in the comic, the idea of Tim and Steph dating or having had dated has never come up (even in the one where he's telling her she's being too hard on herself). Kinda interesting.

They adopted Olicity in the comics (thereby becoming source material and tried to push it.....but it still didn't take off and hasn't been seen since.

As stated before, "but Olicity" isn't a good argument. Can we move on?

Recently in Bunker's holiday christmas special there was a party for LGBTQ+ DC heroes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...enjoy_bunkers/

and Tim/Bernard was absent. Even obscure characters were there.

I respect that you really don't like Tim/Bernard and really want Tim/Steph back. As a Spider-Man who liked Peter/Mary Jane, I can get how frustrating the situation can be. That said, there's nothing conclusive to show that DC is going to change course or that Tim/Steph is the inevitable endgame (if anything, I think a case could be made that the characters have proven stronger separately, but I do like Steph more than Tim, so that's my bias). Dunno what else to tell you.

[skyvolt2000]

The point is Tim Drake's purpose is LGBTQ+ rep. He doesn't sell so he might as well bring in some progressive points by ticking a diversity box.
.

I don't need Tim to check any boxes for diversity.

I need this company to prove they can put decent to quality writing to a LGBTQA+ person outside of those Pride books.

[Rac7d*]

I don't need Tim to check any boxes for diversity.

I need this company to prove they can put decent to quality writing to a LGBTQA+ person outside of those Pride books.

That’s poison Ivy
And possibly dreamer if they keep up the good work with her

[witchboy]

That’s poison Ivy
And possibly dreamer if they keep up the good work with her

It has historically been an issue at DC that they've done much better with queer female representation than queer male representation. There was a time when it seemed like the majority of female characters in the Bat books were queer while all the male characters were straight.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Granted, the webcomic isn't really for serialized storytelling or have much room for characters outside of the central ones, so I'm not how much a canary it is for Bernard's coal mine. (Heck, I'm a little surprised that Batman and Catwoman being in a committed relationship has been a constant through the episodes). That said, have noticed, for as much as the writers love references and deep cuts in the comic, the idea of Tim and Steph dating or having had dated has never come up (even in the one where he's telling her she's being too hard on herself). Kinda interesting.



As stated before, "but Olicity" isn't a good argument. Can we move on?



I respect that you really don't like Tim/Bernard and really want Tim/Steph back. As a Spider-Man who liked Peter/Mary Jane, I can get how frustrating the situation can be. That said, there's nothing conclusive to show that DC is going to change course or that Tim/Steph is the inevitable endgame (if anything, I think a case could be made that the characters have proven stronger separately, but I do like Steph more than Tim, so that's my bias). Dunno what else to tell you.

WFA doesn't reference Dick and Babs dating (or Dick and Kory) as well or Jason and Artemis.

The Olicity argument is relevant as Olicity was something that was shown to be more mainstream via the Arrow adaption and got more exposure than Dinah and Ollie and was adapted into the comics and became source material. And yet despite this and the push it fizzled out.

[WebLurker]

WFA doesn't reference Dick and Babs dating (or Dick and Kory) as well or Jason and Artemis.

So, not counting Duke's girlfriend of the week, Tim/Bernard is one of the only couples we see, alongside a past romance between Batman and Talia al Guhl (admittedly needed to explain Damien), a current Batman/Catwoman, and Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy? Kinda funny, if you think about it; Tim/Bernard, for allegedly being something without staying power, was one of the only ones to get in.

The Olicity argument is relevant as Olicity was something that was shown to be more mainstream via the Arrow adaption and got more exposure than Dinah and Ollie and was adapted into the comics and became source material. And yet despite this and the push it fizzled out.

Once again, Tim/Bernard is not "Recursive Canon," but canon that's been adapted extensively as of late. Also, Tim/Steph are not an "in stone" pairing like Green Arrow/Black Canary. Maybe Tim/Bernard won't last, but saying "but Olicity" doesn't prove anything.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

So, not counting Duke's girlfriend of the week, Tim/Bernard is one of the only couples we see, alongside a past romance between Batman and Talia al Guhl (admittedly needed to explain Damien), a current Batman/Catwoman, and Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy? Kinda funny, if you think about it; Tim/Bernard, for allegedly being something without staying power, was one of the only ones to get in.



Once again, Tim/Bernard is not "Recursive Canon," but canon that's been adapted extensively as of late. Also, Tim/Steph are not an "in stone" pairing like Green Arrow/Black Canary. Maybe Tim/Bernard won't last, but saying "but Olicity" doesn't prove anything.

And yet as people pointe out they haven't done anything with it and he hasn't been since. Plus Bernard was only put there cuz he was a dude and to try and hype it up. Look at how they made it as generic as possible and didn't give Bernard the slightest bit of personality (as if he had one anyway).

My point with Olicity is that it was something that was heavily pushed at the time, especially in the comics and the popular tv show. Like timber it was also something you saw people on twitter/tumblr fawn over. And yet is isn't here because of poor sales. Also those Bernard adaptions barely use him and don't have a noticeable impact as people have brought uo.

DC also tried to push Superman/WW and adapted it a lot and look at where it is.


You say that but remember how Dinah/Ollie were not ony divorced and erased. It seemed for a time they wouldn't be set in stone but look where we are. Not to mention how Tim/Steph was broken up due to death and erasure and was still brought back. It has shown it has staying power.

[Godlike13]

You have to understand Tim/Steph are in an unprecedented situation. We never really seen the male partner come out as queer before. You can’t just compare them to other pairing as reference, because this is different. What’s more, again Tim is not Superman. Tim and Steph is not Superman and Loise. Tim and Benard isn’t competing with probably the most iconic pairing in all of comics like Superman and Wonder Woman was. You have to look and see what Tim and Steph are actually generating, and what circling back to it is worth. It’s like making him Robin again. That is the trap Tim is currently in, and they just got burnt pretty bad by it.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Constantine is bi and still ends up with Zatanna frequently.

[Godlike13]

Constantine is bi and still ends up with Zatanna frequently.

Constantine is also a tragic figure and so ultimately ends up alone. Pairings isn’t really a thing with him.

[sunofdarkchild]

By their nature, romance has always been a weaker element of comics. Those romances that really work at the best of times are few and far between, which is a big part of why Lois/Clark and Peter/MJ are so beloved. With the general decline in the quality of the writing in comics overall this century, romances, already problematic, have become atrocious. It's not just Tim/Bernard. There's MJ's current romantic interest, the whole revival of the Kitty Pryde/Colossus romance in the mid-2010s in X-Men Gold that was so bad it made both of them into worse characters. It's gotten to the point where I dread seeing any form of romance in a comic book, with Tim/Bernard being the final straw that convinced me romance must be avoided at all costs in this medium. It can still work with a relationship established before things got so bad like Lois and Clark, which is why I have some hope that Tim/Steph can still salvage something from the void that is Tim's character if it comes back, but the Kitty/Colossus fiasco proves even old romances with plenty of history are not safe from the terrible writing standards of the current comic industry.

[WebLurker]

And yet as people pointe out they haven't done anything with it and he hasn't been since. Plus Bernard was only put there cuz he was a dude and to try and hype it up. Look at how they made it as generic as possible and didn't give Bernard the slightest bit of personality (as if he had one anyway).

That's more of a problem with the writing rather than the idea itself. If DC wants to commit to this, putting more effort into making Bernard a more fleshed out character, that's an easier fix. (Also, not sure if saying that because the one series flopped means that Bernard is a failed idea. No one is taking the series' lackluster performance as evidence that Tim is a character no one cares about any more and no longer has a place in DC.)

My point with Olicity is that it was something that was heavily pushed at the time, especially in the comics and the popular tv show. Like timber it was also something you saw people on twitter/tumblr fawn over. And yet is isn't here because of poor sales. Also those Bernard adaptions barely use him and don't have a noticeable impact as people have brought uo.

DC also tried to push Superman/WW and adapted it a lot and look at where it is.

It might not last, but saying "but Olicity" won't make it happen. It's wait and see right now.

You say that but remember how Dinah/Ollie were not ony divorced and erased. It seemed for a time they wouldn't be set in stone but look where we are. Not to mention how Tim/Steph was broken up due to death and erasure and was still brought back. It has shown it has staying power.

Dunno how to break this to you, but Tim/Steph are not an iconic comic book couple. Not even close (remember how many adaptations have used it in the decades since it became a thing?). Jessica Jones and Luke Cage have a better claim to being iconic. Not saying they won't come back ever, but, if DC wanted to end them as a couple for all time, it would be a seamless transition. Heck, if anything, becoming more than Tim's girlfriend really let Steph come into her own (maybe even exceed Tim's role as the "normal" Bat-Family member).