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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    The Phasma novel pretty much still has Hux's father in control but Hux, using a lifeform from the freshly recruited Phasma's homeworld, uses it to kill him and pretty much give more power to the newer generation of FO.

    Although we still do see Canady in TLJ, Terrex and Pryde in the sequels who are all supposed to be from the OT era period. Pryde I think is actually supposed to be a mole/scout for Palpatine's group although I think this is made clearer in the novels.
    There's definitely some veteran members throughout the First Order, but its still notable how much younger on average they were portrayed as being around TFA, and then it subtly shot up a bit in TLJ and stayed that way for TROS.

    Still, the biggest sign of the change in the First Order's portrayal was in the retconning of Hux and the transfer of his TFA personality onto the doomed Canady, leading to Pryde being introduced in TROS to make up for the loss of a decent Tarkin/Piett-parallel. TFA!Hux, Cannady, and Pryde are all basically send-ups to the more professional and straight-forward military villains of the OT, and their dialogue is largely interchangeable, as is their attitude and how they contrast with Kylo.

    ...It's just that TLJ screwed up Hux's portrayal and then killed its own new version in Cannady for whatever shallow as hell reason Johnson had, probably with the lame excuse that he thought Hux during his speech in TFA was all there was to the character and must be a hammy diva - which, yes, ignores how that was a speech given before murdering billions of people, and how the entire rest of Hux's screentime is simple, competent and restrained villainy... but Johnson didn't get anyone else's character right either, still seems completely ignorant of that, and mostly wrote a dumb Saturday Morning Cartoon with a dumb "gotcha!" element to it anyways.

    Pryde's a solid substitute in TROS, since Richard Grant can add the right layer of "cold ham" to give the archetype distinct energy... but there wouldn't be a need for Pryde, or a need to waste Cannady's actor, or replace Hux if they just kept Hux's portrayal from TFA - much like how they didn't need to make the Galaxy apathetic about themselves or completely waste the new Republic if they just realized a more chaotic quantity (New Republic) vs quality (First Order) fight would have been a great contrast to both the PT and OT.
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  2. #32
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Battle of France May 10th to June 25th 1940.
    Fall of Belgium known as the 18 Day Campaign May 10th to June 25th 1940.
    Luxembourg was invaded May 10th and taken in 1 day.
    Netherlands May 10th till they surrendered on the 14th of May.
    Poland invaded September 1st ended on October 6th Russian helped with that one.
    Norway April 9th 1940 to June 10th of 1940.
    Invasion of Yugoslavia April 6th to April 18th.
    to name some.
    Once invaded it never took longer than a few weeks for an official surrender to happen and occupation and annexation to begin.

    Again, yes Carthage fought and defended their city for years but once it fell it was over their empire was gone.

    Even the Old Republic put up no fight they transitioned into the Empire with "Thunderous Applause".

    The best Sci-Fi comparison to what happened to the New Republic is BSG and the Fall of the Twelve Colonies which resulted in the Galactica and Civilian Fleet running to find a new home. They weren't the hunters after that they were the hunted.

    After the attack of Starkiller Base the New Republic for all purposes was gone. The Captial Gone, The Senate Gone, The Senators Gone (As in DEAD), the Chancellor Gone, the Military Gone. It was all destroyed in one fell swoop there was no New Republic counterattack because there was no New Republic anymore it was gone. All that was left was Independent Worlds that lost their central government, and these Worlds had no major independent Armies or Navys.
    Nearly all of them got very little space against Germany's tactic, unlike USSR. Still it took months. How long did the Germany spend on the war VS USSR and UK? Can you answer?

    No, you got it entirely wrong, the empire fell because the Carthage army, territory and resources were all lost after bloody wars, that's why they lost their city. Not because they lost their city so it's over. It actually proved my point.

    No fight? Palpatine had to spend decades to use the Clone Wars to weaken both sides, power his own army. And after it he still had to build up the Death Star. He still had worry about the senate UNTIL it's done. Even after that, the rebels were able to take the Empire down.

    The capital, the senate, the chancellor doesn't mean the whole republic is gone, again even the new republic got senate members spread all over the galaxy, the empire got moffs to oversee the star systems. The military had no reason to stick in one place. It's like saying if we blow Coruscant there would be no old republic. Even ancient Empires could still hold or even fight back after capital and leaders were lost in real life history.

    Any functional government would not collapse in one day simply because the capital is lost.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 12-02-2023 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Think the Poe Dameron comics also had First Order sleeper cells or something like that to weaken some of the other Republic worlds as well from within.

    Funny thing is I think the TFA reference books mentions there is a separate remnant or remnants around that still controls part of the galaxy but is not interested in the core worlds, expanding their borders or joining the First Order, just to stick to their own sector of space and rule it "Imperial style" I guess and their citizens are fine with that (maybe?).

    Basically kind of like the Palleon one during the NJO I guess, still has a lot of the old Authoritarian/Totalatarian Imperial system but not interested in any dark side or wars.
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  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Nearly all of them got very little space against Germany's tactic, unlike USSR. Still it took months. How long did the Germany spend on the war VS USSR and UK? Can you answer?

    No, you got it entirely wrong, the empire fell because the Carthage army, territory and resources were all lost after bloody wars, that's why they lost their city. Not because they lost their city so it's over. It actually proved my point.

    No fight? Palpatine had to spend decades to use the Clone Wars to weaken both sides, power his own army. And after it he still had to build up the Death Star. He still had worry about the senate UNTIL it's done. Even after that, the rebels were able to take the Empire down.

    The capital, the senate, the chancellor doesn't mean the whole republic is gone, again even the new republic got senate members spread all over the galaxy, the empire got moffs to oversee the star systems. The military had no reason to stick in one place. It's like saying if we blow Coruscant there would be no old republic. Even ancient Empires could still hold or even fight back after capital and leaders were lost in real life history.

    Any functional government would not collapse in one day simply because the capital is lost.
    Actually, the USSR almost did fall but got lucky thank to the Russian winter. See when Operation Barbarossa started Hitler chose the wrong time of the year to start because given the size of the USSR by the time the Germans got close to Moscow the Russian winter was upon them and them and their equipment started freezing. Big reason the 1st few months of Barbarossa being successful was Stalin's own ineptness when he got warnings from Churchill and his own men in Germany that the German's were planning an invasion of the USSR, he refused to believe it. He thought Hitler would never be stupid enough to fight a war on two fronts. Life lesson never assume another man's stupidity. Thus, he assumed it was lies by the west to get him to start a fight with Germany. It also didn't help that during his purges in the 30's one of the groups he killed was his own Generals seeing them as rivals so when Barbarossa happened most of the USSR's best Generals were already dead by Stalin's hand. This led to him to having a nervous breakdown completely shutting down when Barbarossa happened matter of fact when his cabinet came to see him for orders, he at 1st assumed they were there to kill him and replace him with a new leader. But the reason the USSR and the UK could hold out was they never lost their leadership their seat of government was intact to lead counter assaults. Unlike the New Republic.

    Why do you think the city of Carthage was endgame for the Romans? Because once they took out the leadership there'd be no one to lead. Take out the centralized government and you'll end up with Feudal States which can't stand alone against a large Empire/Force.

    That's what you're not seeming to grasp when Hosnian Prime was destroyed it wasn't just a planet like Alderran this was the seat of the government. All the leadership was there all the Senators, the Chancellors, the heads of the Military, & they also lost their Fleet in the pursuing attacks. There was no leadership to organize a counter offensive and no fleet for it even if there were. Also, TFA and TLJ happened roughly in the span of a week or so. Now by the time of TRIS which was a year later we see a civilian fleet has formed which is a reasonable time for them to organize and rebuild. The Rebellion didn't form overnight like you seem to think it took years after the Rise of the Empire before they resembled anything like we saw in ANH.

    As for the Governors and Moffs they were in place to control and run the worlds that made up the Empire and so things like the Senate wouldn't be needed. So yes, you're right the Empire wouldn't fall if Coruscant was destroyed because outside of Palpatine there was no seat of Government there anymore by the time of ANH because the Empire had over the decades slowly transitioned from Imperial democracy to full military dictatorship. The New Republic would never have that kind of system in place and in fact would have done all they could to guarantee it couldn't exit. An even with that system once the head was decapitated AKA Palpatine they were in disarray after the Battle of Endor.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Actually, the USSR almost did fall but got lucky thank to the Russian winter. See when Operation Barbarossa started Hitler chose the wrong time of the year to start because given the size of the USSR by the time the Germans got close to Moscow the Russian winter was upon them and them and their equipment started freezing. Big reason the 1st few months of Barbarossa being successful was Stalin's own ineptness when he got warnings from Churchill and his own men in Germany that the German's were planning an invasion of the USSR, he refused to believe it. He thought Hitler would never be stupid enough to fight a war on two fronts. Life lesson never assume another man's stupidity. Thus, he assumed it was lies by the west to get him to start a fight with Germany. It also didn't help that during his purges in the 30's one of the groups he killed was his own Generals seeing them as rivals so when Barbarossa happened most of the USSR's best Generals were already dead by Stalin's hand. This led to him to having a nervous breakdown completely shutting down when Barbarossa happened matter of fact when his cabinet came to see him for orders, he at 1st assumed they were there to kill him and replace him with a new leader. But the reason the USSR and the UK could hold out was they never lost their leadership their seat of government was intact to lead counter assaults. Unlike the New Republic.

    Why do you think the city of Carthage was endgame for the Romans? Because once they took out the leadership there'd be no one to lead. Take out the centralized government and you'll end up with Feudal States which can't stand alone against a large Empire/Force.

    That's what you're not seeming to grasp when Hosnian Prime was destroyed it wasn't just a planet like Alderran this was the seat of the government. All the leadership was there all the Senators, the Chancellors, the heads of the Military, & they also lost their Fleet in the pursuing attacks. There was no leadership to organize a counter offensive and no fleet for it even if there were. Also, TFA and TLJ happened roughly in the span of a week or so. Now by the time of TRIS which was a year later we see a civilian fleet has formed which is a reasonable time for them to organize and rebuild. The Rebellion didn't form overnight like you seem to think it took years after the Rise of the Empire before they resembled anything like we saw in ANH.

    As for the Governors and Moffs they were in place to control and run the worlds that made up the Empire and so things like the Senate wouldn't be needed. So yes, you're right the Empire wouldn't fall if Coruscant was destroyed because outside of Palpatine there was no seat of Government there anymore by the time of ANH because the Empire had over the decades slowly transitioned from Imperial democracy to full military dictatorship. The New Republic would never have that kind of system in place and in fact would have done all they could to guarantee it couldn't exit. An even with that system once the head was decapitated AKA Palpatine they were in disarray after the Battle of Endor.
    USSR didn't fall. Hitler chose the right time otherwise USSR would be even stronger after they recover from great purge. Winter applies to both sides. USSR also pushed back and occupied Berlin. History lesson here. Also USSR lost a big chunk of their lands before Moscow, which is why they can't lost Moscow.

    Because Carthage was already in brink of death, after their resource, army and territory was greatly reduced by war. So once the last stronghold fell, it fell. THIS is how most of the empires fall. You took it entirely wrong. Take out the centralized government without cripple the territory and military, would easily cause the generals, the governors to form a new government in short time.

    No, any functional government would form a new leadership because the resource and territory is still there, you still got a large chunk of the government officials around your territory unless there are serious power struggle going on.

    Governors are already there during the old republic, the senate represent them, and they don't always stay in the capital. If the senate is gone then the governors will take control. Just like the US and most of the nations, and any functional government works. You got it wrong.

    What are you talking about? The Empire didn't fell simply because of Palpatine, but because ppl never liked it, the war was going on for years to decimate the Imperial forces, even after Palpatine died, the war still went on for a little while.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 12-03-2023 at 08:10 AM.

  6. #36
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    It’s more a question of whether the “body politic” could (or in the case of fiction, “should”) be so easily subjugated, even if the government is killed; in real life, the only times a “decapitation strike” successfully subjugates an entire nation is if the body politic has more reason to like the decapitater and not the decapitated - or because the body politic and the government are effectively the same, such as in a city state.

    The Galaxy is too large to be subjugated immediately - the body politic would survive a decapitation. The Galaxy also has too much history with the Empire to allow the First Order to really replace it.

    It’s just lazy writing that varies from tolerably nuanced to aggravatingly shallow and non-functional.
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  7. #37
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    It’s more a question of whether the “body politic” could (or in the case of fiction, “should”) be so easily subjugated, even if the government is killed; in real life, the only times a “decapitation strike” successfully subjugates an entire nation is if the body politic has more reason to like the decapitater and not the decapitated - or because the body politic and the government are effectively the same, such as in a city state.

    The Galaxy is too large to be subjugated immediately - the body politic would survive a decapitation. The Galaxy also has too much history with the Empire to allow the First Order to really replace it.

    It’s just lazy writing that varies from tolerably nuanced to aggravatingly shallow and non-functional.
    Yeah, other than city state, any functional government doesn't die even if the capital was destroyed. It would always have all the resources, governors, army officials split around the territory to manage and defend the nation. Central government doesn't equal the whole thing.

    It's not like Coruscant wasn't attacked before, both in SWTOR and the beginning of RotS, reinforcement came quickly from other other worlds. Even the Sith Empire could only use the hostage to get more advantage. Even if they kill everyone, the war would not be over.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    It’s more a question of whether the “body politic” could (or in the case of fiction, “should”) be so easily subjugated, even if the government is killed; in real life, the only times a “decapitation strike” successfully subjugates an entire nation is if the body politic has more reason to like the decapitater and not the decapitated - or because the body politic and the government are effectively the same, such as in a city state.

    The Galaxy is too large to be subjugated immediately - the body politic would survive a decapitation. The Galaxy also has too much history with the Empire to allow the First Order to really replace it.

    It’s just lazy writing that varies from tolerably nuanced to aggravatingly shallow and non-functional.
    I don't know, I kind of got the feeling that a good portion of the Galaxy thought the Empire was A-Okay, which plays into how the New Republic fell apart.
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Or it didn't matter as much-Tatooine in the OT is pretty much the same as it is during the prequels, although with an added stormtrooper presence. Even Luke doesn't really consider the Empire that big a deal and wants to join the starfighter academy; it isn't until the Lars are killed that he really starts to hate them more directly.

    The Biggs deleted scenes do hint that the Empire might be moving to nationalize a lot of commerce which would also cause problem for Owen and Beru, though even if they hadn't bought the droids.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 12-03-2023 at 04:05 PM.
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  10. #40
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I don't know, I kind of got the feeling that a good portion of the Galaxy thought the Empire was A-Okay, which plays into how the New Republic fell apart.
    Because the Empire was turned from the old republic, Palpatine had been changing and building up his power house. He just disbanded the senate after Death Star, then the civil war started.

    He didn't have time to change everything yet. That doesn't mean the empire is nice.

    A big chunk of the galaxy obviously dislike the Empire due to its tyranny.

    Still, both the old republic and the empire wouldn't just die due to the capital being blown away, while a large chunk of the galaxy doesn't care them. So it's not an excuse for such lazy writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Or it didn't matter as much-Tatooine in the OT is pretty much the same as it is during the prequels, although with an added stormtrooper presence. Even Luke doesn't really consider the Empire that big a deal and wants to join the starfighter academy; it isn't until the Lars are killed that he really starts to hate them more directly.

    The Biggs deleted scenes do hint that the Empire might be moving to nationalize a lot of commerce which would also cause problem for Owen and Beru, though even if they hadn't bought the droids.
    If there was no civil war, Palpatine was able to continue to focus his effort, outer worlds would also fall into strict empire control.

    We also saw the Empire use small worlds for Death Star and other experiment.

    It would be shortsighted to support the Empire for such reason.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 12-03-2023 at 04:17 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I don't know, I kind of got the feeling that a good portion of the Galaxy thought the Empire was A-Okay, which plays into how the New Republic fell apart.
    It’s true for the stuff right after the Clone Wars, and occasionally deployed after ROTJ…

    …But the comics, shows, and video games that are closer and closer to the OT inevitably make it clear that life under the Empire sucks even for those who were privileged before, and then there’s the whole Operation: Cinder thing targeting even major loyalist Imperial worlds, often as part of an explanation for how the Empire falls so quickly, much more so than the warlord in-fighting of Legends (which still gets mentioned, but barely appears.)

    This is what I meant earlier by LFL getting needlessly and frustratingly inconsistent with how the Empire’s rule is perceived. Any time they’re dealing with Alderaan around the OT, for instance, it always gets played as a “…Holy ****…” moment for everyone, and since everyone at LFL is fond of Operation: Cinder (often showing much more enthusiasm and engagement for that than for anything to do with the ST), it’s been expanded beyond its original idea to an even larger atrocity (especially since Mandalore’s Purge has been added to it.)

    It’s *only* whenever we both move further away from ROTJ *and* as writer’s get lazy and want to take shortcuts for Imperial Remnant forces that we start trying to ignore all that - and often at the cost of also making it seem like modern LFL has a sort of anti-democracy bias even compared to Lucas’s deconstruction of it in the PT.

    Like, I can get *some* dudes being okay with stuff, especially the mega-rich… but the fact of the matter is that LFL themselves keep allowing stuff to happen that would disturb even the mega-rich, kill them, or destroy much of their profits. Operation: Cinder alone is the type of thing that would turn most Space Fortune 500 companies against the Empire, since their assets and leadership would have been victims of it as well.

    And there’s nothing about TLJ’s context that makes the Space Vegas Canto Bight having no drama or impact from the Hosnian System make sense, or any real payoff for it besides wanting a shallow repeat of the OT (one done with less enthusiasm than when they do the actual OT).

    I mean, the world crapped its pants at comparatively small atrocities and destabilization in reality (9/11, War on Terror, and Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine.)

    The Hosnian System being blown up is the equivalent of someone nuking DC/Beijing/Moscow and their biggest naval ports from out of nowhere, and Operation: Cinder is the equivalent of the USSR actually launching its missiles randomly as it dies.

    It's not CTR ALT DEL.
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  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    It really felt like it's being played as if to a lot of people, not just the ultra rich, didn't really see that big a difference in how they were governed. That's the way the Empire rose with applause at the end of the PT, and even during the OT the Rebels are a small rag tag force without any real support, and in the recent Marvel comics we've heard how Storm Troopers actually liked joining up because it gave them steady a job, opportunity for advancement and a better home than they previously had. And in the Mandalorian we've seen people bemoaning the inadequacies of the New Republic and in Ahsoka we see how there is a vast number of people aiding the Imperial remnants at multiple layers of the government.

    Sure, if all you have seen is the OT than it's just Empire bad, Rebels who want to restore the Republic good but ever since the PT came out it's been more nuanced. The Republic wasn't some shining beacon it was very much a hive of scum and villainy where special interests and greed ruled the day. It's why Palpatine could hide in the Senate, it was always a place steeped in hatred, pettiness and greed so the Jedi couldn't tell that there was something more right under their noses, it just felt like business as usual.

    And it's because of that development in the PT, that the old Republic wasn't worth restoring, that it seemed obvious that the New Republic would be doomed to fail in the sequels. What they wanted was an ideal that either never existed or hadn't existed in a very long time and without realizing that flaw then they just duplicated it warts and all.

    Sure that kind of nihlism makes it feel like the OT heroes fought in vain, but that happens sometimes.
    Last edited by thwhtGuardian; 12-04-2023 at 05:06 PM.
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  13. #43
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Was the Republic post-RoTJ in Legends that bad?

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Was the Republic post-RoTJ in Legends that bad?
    You don't really get that sense until after Revenge of the Sith that the New Republic was plagued by infighting and greed which led to the Fel Empire seeming to be a better alternative in Legacy.
    Last edited by thwhtGuardian; 12-04-2023 at 05:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It really felt like it's being played as if to a lot of people, not just the ultra rich, didn't really see that big a difference in how they were governed. That's the way the Empire rose with applause at the end of the PT, and even during the OT the Rebels are a small rag tag force without any real support, and in the recent Marvel comics we've heard how Storm Troopers actually liked joining up because it gave them steady a job, opportunity for advancement and a better home than they previously had. And in the Mandalorian we've seen people bemoaning the inadequacies of the New Republic and in Ahsoka we see how there is a vast number of people aiding the Imperial remnants at multiple layers of the government.

    Sure, if all you have seen is the OT than it's just Empire bad, Rebels who want to restore the Republic good but ever since the PT came out it's been more nuanced. The Republic wasn't some shining beacon it was very much a hive of scum and villainy where special interests and greed ruled the day. It's why Palpatine could hide in the Senate, it was always a place steeped in hatred, pettiness and greed so the Jedi couldn't tell that there was something more right under their noses, it just felt like business as usual.

    And it's because of that development in the PT, that the old Republic wasn't worth restoring, that it seemed obvious that the New Republic would be doomed to fail in the sequels. What they wanted was an ideal that either never existed or hadn't existed in a very long time and without realizing that flaw then they just duplicated it warts and all.

    Sure that kind of nihlism makes it feel like the OT heroes fought in vain, but that happens sometimes.
    But it’s not just the OT that plays up the evil of the Empire and makes that a point of clarity - it’s also literally ALL their expanded universe stuff in the Disney era.

    That nihilism doesn’t exist whenever you give one of these writers a chance to write a story with Tarkin (because old school Star Wars fans always have a hard on for Tarkin) committing atrocities on almost everyone around him, or a chance to write something with Operation: Cinder, or anything else that’s set in the OT, where they want to have Saturday Morning Cartoon levels of evil, but played seriously.

    They fundamentally go out of their way to make the Empire an inescapably more terrible government than the Republic whenever they’re writing with the real Empire. And even the most cynical depiction of the Old Republic makes it clear that it’s not the Empire - largely because that nihilism you note ceases to exist once they want to emphasize the Empire being evil.

    They only get “nihilistic” when they get lazy - and the vaguely anti-democratic messaging isn’t intentional, it’s just that laziness expressing itself right up until they bring back some imperial villain and have him start torturing puppies on screen or something.

    The fact they’re lazy about the New Republic *is the problem* - because it’s lazy and contributed to the lackluster writing that plagued much of the ST, and seems to be again being used to avoid spending more time writing smart villains on Disney+.

    Hell, when they write good villains, it ends up with stuff like Mayfeld being retraumatized by his old commanding officer and shooting him for it, because of how obviously evil the Empire was compared to everything else - and Mayfeld’s supposed to be the arch-cynic, beyond the casual Galactic citizen. Might be a sign of where that episodes writer didn’t fall back on laziness as Filoni and Favreau did in The Mandalorian Season 4 and Ahsoka.
    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    You don't really get that sense until after Revenge of the Sith that the New Republic was plagued by infighting and greed which led to the Fel Empire seeming to be a better alternative in Legacy.
    Weirdly, Legacy wound up having the Galactic Alliance Remnant become a major player and implied Victor of the war organically instead of the planned Fel Empire being the main heroic faction - the writers seemed to just find it more fun to right straight up heroes and the morally grey Fel Empire wasn’t good enough to fit the main heroic mold of the story, and thus they had the Emperor go bad.

    They defiantly seemed to become enamored with making the government the baddies after ROTS, though, so you’re right about that - and it’s a sentiment that likely survived the jump from Lucas to Disney.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 12-04-2023 at 08:22 PM.
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