The "new republic collapsed in 2 days" really ruined ST setting

[Slowpokeking]

The Republic functioned, but it was still divided...VERY divided and when you remove a head, it creates a vacuum that creates more issues. With different species and planets it's a lot different than a country. Animosity is still there even if fighting for the same goal. Once that goal is met, it's not like everything is forgotten and we are all best buds. When the Emperor lost, all it created was a vacuum and cynicism which takes many, many years to overcome...Or a new enemy...And like here on earth, people begin to follow the charismatic ones, even if they are full of s###...So yeah, I see a fractured republic and factions in that republic and a lot of animosity between planets.

Same with the old republic, how long and how much effort did Palpatine spend to take control?

[Jokerz79]

Been away a few days and I still don't get how some don't understand even historically how some nations didn't fall like the USSR in WW2 because they never lost their government because we're not just talking about a place falling but all the loss of the people who run the government as in all of them. & that why some nations did fall because they did lose everything by the end not just a place but the people who ran and protected it.

Look at the U.S. and if a Star Killer Base style attack happened. The equivalent of a Star Killer Base Attack would be a land based (So there'd be no warning) nuclear assault on DC and the surrounding area that happens on a day when the President is meeting with the VP and the Cabinet. Both Houses of Congress are in session as is the Supreme Court and the Heads of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and Homeland Security are in their offices. Oh, let's not forget all the government offices and Pentagon in DC. All these people are dead meaning we have no President and no clear line of succession anymore. Because the VP is dead, The Speaker of the House is Dead, the Senate Pro Temp is Dead, the Secretary of State is dead, as is the next 14 people in line down to the Head of Homeland Security who would have been in their office. Once you get past 18 there is no clear line because no one ever envisions all of them being dead in one attack. Meaning there is no Federal Government there's a reason we have bunkers for these people and after the Star Killer Base Attack just like this hypothetical attack there was essentially no New Republic because everyone who ran it was gone.

Back to America after this hypothetical attack the Commander is Chief AKA President, Joint Chief of Staff, Secretary of Defense and anyone in the Pentagon are dead but the chain of command would continue on, and they'd go to Defcon-1 and prepare a counterattack if they know the target if not just protect the U.S. would be the order of the day. Now let's just hope a Coup d'etat doesn't happen with that leadership vacuum though and also let's just be happy old Mike Flynn is retired and wasn't popular.

On a State Level Governors would likely declare Marshall Law and arm the National Guards. To fill the federal level, the Governors could appoint new Senators and Congress People until a National Election can be held. Once filled the New Congress can select a speaker who will automatically be elevated to the office of President until again a national election can be held.
& That's if we get that far because we have no Supreme Court to decide what's legal and you might have some politicians who will want to downplay the need for a new Federal Government or at least weaken it you know the ones mostly from the Jesus Land part of America. But they'll learn the need of the Federal Government when Grandma and Grandpa aren't getting their Social Security Checks because the Federal Office that handles that is gone this will also affect anyone on SSI, SSDI, and basically who gets money from the Fed including the states. Plus, God knows how long mail will last once the Postal Workers quit getting paid same for all Federal Jobs in cities given people usually tend to not to like to work for free.

So, yeah this would be a shitshow and we would be lucky if a civil war, or breaking up of the country into multiple smaller countries or military takeover doesn't happen.

Now Remember that not only would this fallout be true for the New Republic but in all honesty, they weren't like the U.S. they're more like the EU meaning a government that has no real military and is more an alliance of independent nations vs a united country. Also, none of these worlds have strong militaries hence why they relied on the Republic to solve issues like the Trade Federation. So, we now have hundreds if not thousands of Independent Worlds with their own agendas and needs and with no strong militaries and no Federal Government to unite them vs the 1st Order which is a United Government (AKA Dictatorship) with an armada of war ships and a massive army of trained soldiers, and you want them to fight this army.

[Slowpokeking]

Been away a few days and I still don't get how some don't understand even historically how some nations didn't fall like the USSR in WW2 because they never lost their government because we're not just talking about a place falling but all the loss of the people who run the government as in all of them. & that why some nations did fall because they did lose everything by the end not just a place but the people who ran and protected it.

Look at the U.S. and if a Star Killer Base style attack happened. The equivalent of a Star Killer Base Attack would be a land based (So there'd be no warning) nuclear assault on DC and the surrounding area that happens on a day when the President is meeting with the VP and the Cabinet. Both Houses of Congress are in session as is the Supreme Court and the Heads of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and Homeland Security are in their offices. Oh, let's not forget all the government offices and Pentagon in DC. All these people are dead meaning we have no President and no clear line of succession anymore. Because the VP is dead, The Speaker of the House is Dead, the Senate Pro Temp is Dead, the Secretary of State is dead, as is the next 14 people in line down to the Head of Homeland Security who would have been in their office. Once you get past 18 there is no clear line because no one ever envisions all of them being dead in one attack. Meaning there is no Federal Government there's a reason we have bunkers for these people and after the Star Killer Base Attack just like this hypothetical attack there was essentially no New Republic because everyone who ran it was gone.

Back to America after this hypothetical attack the Commander is Chief AKA President, Joint Chief of Staff, Secretary of Defense and anyone in the Pentagon are dead but the chain of command would continue on, and they'd go to Defcon-1 and prepare a counterattack if they know the target if not just protect the U.S. would be the order of the day. Now let's just hope a Coup d'etat doesn't happen with that leadership vacuum though and also let's just be happy old Mike Flynn is retired and wasn't popular.

On a State Level Governors would likely declare Marshall Law and arm the National Guards. To fill the federal level, the Governors could appoint new Senators and Congress People until a National Election can be held. Once filled the New Congress can select a speaker who will automatically be elevated to the office of President until again a national election can be held.
& That's if we get that far because we have no Supreme Court to decide what's legal and you might have some politicians who will want to downplay the need for a new Federal Government or at least weaken it you know the ones mostly from the Jesus Land part of America. But they'll learn the need of the Federal Government when Grandma and Grandpa aren't getting their Social Security Checks because the Federal Office that handles that is gone this will also affect anyone on SSI, SSDI, and basically who gets money from the Fed including the states. Plus, God knows how long mail will last once the Postal Workers quit getting paid same for all Federal Jobs in cities given people usually tend to not to like to work for free.

So, yeah this would be a shitshow and we would be lucky if a civil war, or breaking up of the country into multiple smaller countries or military takeover doesn't happen.

Now Remember that not only would this fallout be true for the New Republic but in all honesty, they weren't like the U.S. they're more like the EU meaning a government that has no real military and is more an alliance of independent nations vs a united country. Also, none of these worlds have strong militaries hence why they relied on the Republic to solve issues like the Trade Federation. So, we now have hundreds if not thousands of Independent Worlds with their own agendas and needs and with no strong militaries and no Federal Government to unite them vs the 1st Order which is a United Government (AKA Dictatorship) with an armada of war ships and a massive army of trained soldiers, and you want them to fight this army.

Because you don't get it.

There is no such thing as government lost with capital, government is all over the territory. Modern nations like the US will quickly reform a new government.

And you obviously don't understand how it works in war time. Even ancient empires will very quickly let a new emperor get throne if one is captured/killed.

The US don't make national election in such situation as well. They will directly let the electors or the new central government bring up a temporary leader to command and elect/rebuild after the war. Especially under such war pressure to SURVIVE, nobody would object that.

Other nations like the UK also got backup plan.

You obviously don't know how such thing works, even ancient government has been through this, they were able to rebuild. Central government is only a small part, people, resource, territory, troops is what matters. Any functional government doesn't fall simply when the capital was beheaded.

We also saw in EP3 and CW that even when General Grievous attacked Coruscant, armies were keep coming to counterattack. Same with the TOR war, the Empire took Coruscant in hostage, but it could only use it gain advantage of the war, not let the republic surrender.

[Jokerz79]

Because you don't get it.

There is no such thing as government lost with capital, government is all over the territory. Modern nations like the US will quickly reform a new government.

And you obviously don't understand how it works in war time. Even ancient empires will very quickly let a new emperor get throne if one is captured/killed.

The US don't make national election in such situation as well. They will directly let the electors or the new central government bring up a temporary leader to command and elect/rebuild after the war. Especially under such war pressure to SURVIVE, nobody would object that.

Other nations like the UK also got backup plan.

You obviously don't know how such thing works, even ancient government has been through this, they were able to rebuild. Central government is only a small part, people, resource, territory, troops is what matters. Any functional government doesn't fall simply when the capital was beheaded.

We also saw in EP3 and CW that even when General Grievous attacked Coruscant, armies were keep coming to counterattack. Same with the TOR war, the Empire took Coruscant in hostage, but it could only use it gain advantage of the war, not let the republic surrender.

No, you don't get it.

1: I did mention Governor's replacing Senators and Congress Members. But even that takes time and we'd be in the middle of the greatest attack the country ever had seen until they were selected.

2: On a Federal Level everyone who makes the decisions is DEAD. There's no backup plan when there's no one there to enact it. That's why if we know an attack is coming or it's a 9/11 level attack, we immediately place our leaders in shelters, bunkers, or protective custody. That is so we have a continuity of government even if a majority dies to enact those backup plans. Star Killer Base attack happened with no warning and killed everyone in the federal government of the New Republic.

As for the events in SW that you point to again the Government NEVER fell because a siege isn't the same as annihilation and they had a strong military at those times due them being at war at those times. Both in SW and Real Life you keep pointing to events where there was still a government and military where after the Star Killer Base attack there was neither.

[thwhtGuardian]

Because you don't get it.

There is no such thing as government lost with capital, government is all over the territory. Modern nations like the US will quickly reform a new government.

And you obviously don't understand how it works in war time. Even ancient empires will very quickly let a new emperor get throne if one is captured/killed.

The US don't make national election in such situation as well. They will directly let the electors or the new central government bring up a temporary leader to command and elect/rebuild after the war. Especially under such war pressure to SURVIVE, nobody would object that.

Other nations like the UK also got backup plan.

You obviously don't know how such thing works, even ancient government has been through this, they were able to rebuild. Central government is only a small part, people, resource, territory, troops is what matters. Any functional government doesn't fall simply when the capital was beheaded.

We also saw in EP3 and CW that even when General Grievous attacked Coruscant, armies were keep coming to counterattack. Same with the TOR war, the Empire took Coruscant in hostage, but it could only use it gain advantage of the war, not let the republic surrender.

They will not quickly reform a new government, especially not in this fractured day and age. We're nearly four years on at this point and there are still people who think Joe Biden is an illegitimate President, and not all of them are nobodies like Cleetus down the street, there are many in local and state political offices. You think those kind of people are going to accept it if an ad hoc election elects a Liberal and there's no government body to stop them?

If the capital were nuked and the heads of states died in the blast it's over, plain and simple. There are states that don't like to cooperate now, with out a federal government forcing them to be a union there won't be a union.

[Jokerz79]

They will not quickly reform a new government, especially not in this fractured day and age. We're nearly four years on at this point and there are still people who think Joe Biden is an illegitimate President, and not all of them are nobodies like Cleetus down the street, there are many in local and state political offices. You think those kind of people are going to accept it if an ad hoc election elects a Liberal and there's no government body to stop them?

If the capital were nuked and the heads of states died in the blast it's over, plain and simple. There are states that don't like to cooperate now, with out a federal government forcing them to be a union there won't be a union.

Exactly. & the New Republic like the Old Republic wasn't some united body it was independent worlds agreeing to work under a large Federal Alliance. If Brussels was attacked tomorrow, I'd doubt a quarter of the countries in it would be eager to unite under a new EU given some have recently elected nationalist leaders.

[Slowpokeking]

No, you don't get it.

1: I did mention Governor's replacing Senators and Congress Members. But even that takes time and we'd be in the middle of the greatest attack the country ever had seen until they were selected.

2: On a Federal Level everyone who makes the decisions is DEAD. There's no backup plan when there's no one there to enact it. That's why if we know an attack is coming or it's a 9/11 level attack, we immediately place our leaders in shelters, bunkers, or protective custody. That is so we have a continuity of government even if a majority dies to enact those backup plans. Star Killer Base attack happened with no warning and killed everyone in the federal government of the New Republic.

As for the events in SW that you point to again the Government NEVER fell because a siege isn't the same as annihilation and they had a strong military at those times due them being at war at those times. Both in SW and Real Life you keep pointing to events where there was still a government and military where after the Star Killer Base attack there was neither.

That will do quickly, even ancient empire had formed a new government quickly.

We got governors all around the states to easily form a plan. Again you failed to get it. They will make contact and select a new leader first, not to form a new senator and congress. You don't even know how does it work in war time.

You failed to understand one thing: Government is formed by people to manage the resource and territory, as long as they are there, it's not a problem. Not to say only the central government is lost.


Seriously, there are tons of examples in history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_of_Yongjia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingkang_incident

The whole central government was down, cities were took down, tons of resources were lost. Yet new government was still formed to hold a chunk of territory.

You didn't even play TOR right? The Empire had the WHOLE Coruscant under control as hostages, if they want they could kill them all, but obviously it won't let them win the galaxy.

[Slowpokeking]

They will not quickly reform a new government, especially not in this fractured day and age. We're nearly four years on at this point and there are still people who think Joe Biden is an illegitimate President, and not all of them are nobodies like Cleetus down the street, there are many in local and state political offices. You think those kind of people are going to accept it if an ad hoc election elects a Liberal and there's no government body to stop them?

If the capital were nuked and the heads of states died in the blast it's over, plain and simple. There are states that don't like to cooperate now, with out a federal government forcing them to be a union there won't be a union.

They will, when a savage enemy is at doorstep, and when countless American lives were lost, which means if you don't work together, you will be next or become enslaved. Nobody wants to die or become slaves of First Order.

Countless examples in history and SW said no. I really think you need to know how it works.

[thwhtGuardian]

They will, when a savage enemy is at doorstep, and when countless American lives were lost, which means if you don't work together, you will be next or become enslaved. Nobody wants to die or become slaves of First Order.

Countless examples in history and SW said no. I really think you need to know how it works.

The thing is they wouldn't be slaves under the First Order, just like nothing really drastically changed under the Empire. It's like the Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." If things were drastically different under the Empire or the First Order than the rebels wouldn't have been a tiny rag tag group, they would have had wide populist support. That they did not tells you that for as much as they were played out as the absolute worst of the worst by the heroes to the average joe it was just another tuesday.

And if you think things would change here in the US if we were nuked and the maga idiots would follow a liberal president elected in the aftermath, you're just being silly. We're not uniting after that, it's going to be a fractured state if any states emerge at all.

[Slowpokeking]

The thing is they wouldn't be slaves under the First Order, just like nothing really drastically changed under the Empire. It's like the Who said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." If things were drastically different under the Empire or the First Order than the rebels wouldn't have been a tiny rag tag group, they would have had wide populist support. That they did not tells you that for as much as they were played out as the absolute worst of the worst by the heroes to the average joe it was just another tuesday.

And if you think things would change here in the US if we were nuked and the maga idiots would follow a liberal president elected in the aftermath, you're just being silly. We're not uniting after that, it's going to be a fractured state if any states emerge at all.

Did you even read old or new EU materials?

The Empire enslaved countless ppl and rebels has been all over the dark era. Even the imperials themselves have many coups. Even in movies like RO, we saw the Empire blow up a whole city , who did nothing to them to test the Death Star. They did have wide support, especially when the Emperor is dead, even the core worlds were celebrating. Did you even watch the movies?

Some places were ok only because Palpatine had not done with his work yet.

Yes, when nuke and countless lives were lost, many many ppl's friends or family could be in it, it's going to create a huge wave to unite the nation together. It has happened many many times in history. Even Stalin, who was such a tyrant, got a lot of support when the Nazi were at doorstep. Even China, who was in civil war at that time, the 2 groups had to stop it and against the invader. There would no such thing as "liberal" or "maga" in such situation, only "defend US". Even Stalin wasn't that stubborn during the war.

[thwhtGuardian]

Did you even read old or new EU materials?

The Empire enslaved countless ppl and rebels has been all over the dark era. Even the imperials themselves have many coups. Even in movies like RO, we saw the Empire blow up a whole city , who did nothing to them to test the Death Star. They did have wide support, especially when the Emperor is dead, even the core worlds were celebrating. Did you even watch the movies?

Some places were ok only because Palpatine had not done with his work yet.

Yes, when nuke and countless lives were lost, many many ppl's friends or family could be in it, it's going to create a huge wave to unite the nation together. It has happened many many times in history. Even Stalin, who was such a tyrant, got a lot of support when the Nazi were at doorstep. Even China, who was in civil war at that time, the 2 groups had to stop it and against the invader. There would no such thing as "liberal" or "maga" in such situation, only "defend US". Even Stalin wasn't that stubborn during the war.

I've read both, and it's always a tiny group with no wide spread support.

[Slowpokeking]

I've read both, and it's always a tiny group with no wide spread support.

What are you talking about?

The rebels could form a fleet to meet head on with the Empire's main fleet and won the war in the battle of Endor. After that even the core worlds started to celebrate.

[ChrisIII]

Think the First Order largely built their fleet in secret.

Although it's kind of weird that nobody noticed Illum/Starkiller, a planet which not only was used to power lightsabers but also the Death Stars, had a new big laser in it.

Then again according to some reference books Starkiller was mobile like the Death Star so I guess it could've moved out of it's system.

--------------------------------

The final order fleet also was around in the OT on Exegol according to the Vader comics but not ready yet until Palpatine's "address" I guess.

[thwhtGuardian]

What are you talking about?

The rebels could form a fleet to meet head on with the Empire's main fleet and won the war in the battle of Endor. After that even the core worlds started to celebrate.

The fleet was barely a diversion so they could sneak fighters in to destroy the second Death Star. You'd have thought the Empire would have seen that coming but hey, it's a piece of fiction.

At the end of the day the concept that your basic person in the galaxy wouldn't know the difference between one leader to the next is built into the genre. At its core Star Wars is a Medieval Fantasy, all knights and lords and wizards...the thing is, the majority of the people in those worlds are just serfs being abused for their labor. And it didn't matter if it was a benevolent king like say King Arthur, at the end of the day the serfs were still serfs.

And it's the same with Star Wars

[ChrisIII]

Yeah the fleet was still kind of small compared to the Empire's armada, it's kind of clear that they were not expecting that many Destroyers ("It's a trap!") probably just Executor and the three or so normal Destroyers Han and co. saw (The rest of the fleet were hiding behind on the far side of the moon per Palpatine's orders).

Ackbar even says that the fleet won't last long directly engaging the destroyers, although they do manage to destroy a few.