What should be next for Duke Thomas?

[Aahz]

Let's break it down a bit... Duke is:
- the only Gotham hero that operates during the day
- the only Gotham hero with metahuman powers
- a college student balancing hero life with civilian life
- has a large supporting cast of both civilians and heroes
- the son of an evil immortal who wants to Luke/Vader him
- an ex-member of a gang of teenage vigilantes
- a staple member of a well known superhero team.

For me that is more few Ideas they tried but that either didn't or they never really comitted to.

The daylight thing is imo kind of dumb, from an inuiverse perspective.

His powers aren't that developed, and sofar not really srong enough to do anything the others couldn't do with tech.

His civilain life and support cast is pretty underdeveloped, and you could do that with most of the others to.

Fot the evil immortal there is also Damian with Ras, and Ras is just a way better developed character than Gnomeon.

And I wouldn't really call him a staple member of the Outsiders (he was on that team for what? 20 issues or so?), and the Outsiders are anyway more a B or C list team, not on the level of Titans or Young Justice.

[lemonpeace]

Putting Duke in a book with Tim, the Batgirls, Oracle, ect. And then have him be the lead, ya I’m not sure there would be a faster way to get Bat family readers to turn on him lol.

If we're talking about projects that are meant to be developing Duke Thomas, then it makes sense for the project to be Duke-centric. looking at it from that perspective, it's the more logical approach than the inverse. because the other characters are much more established, creative teams are going to be less likely to sideline them and more inclined to treat them as deuteragonist if they're in a book with Duke as the lead perspective. the inverse, as we all know, is not likely to be true. plus since characters like Tim, Cass, etc are more likely to be getting utilize elsewhere where they can be more centrally focused, it takes nothing from them to be deployed to support Duke from time to time; is that not the point of Batfamily network of characters? and I feel like the majority of the bat fandoms are mature enough to understand that. but I digress...

this is why I'm such a big proponent of DC transitioning Duke and The Outsiders over to the Black Lightning camp and just make a concerted campaign developing that corner of the DC landscape. people claim characters like Duke, Black Lightning, The Outsiders can't maintain a book, they don't have the fan base, etc. etc and that's why they have to be attached to Batman in one way or another. so it makes sense to consolidate their best elements and allow them to develop as their own entity.

[Aahz]

people claim characters like Duke, Black Lightning, The Outsiders can't maintain a book,

The longest running Black lighting Solo book lastet for 13 issues. So in market situation were even bigger name chracters often struggle with sales, chances for Black Lighting to carry a book are pretty low, let alone that attaching a another character to Black Lighting would give that character any significant boost in sales.

And it would really matter if you would attach him to some one other than Black Lighting, appart from Batman and Superman, non of the other DC charcacters is really big enough to give a "family member" really much place for exposure and development, and most families are allready way to big.

When it comes to Team books, just look at the last years, hardly any team books last for even two years (or at least not with changing out the majority of the team members half way through the book) and the team book that last longer are usually the old established teams, with casts that are close to the iconic version of the team.

[Godlike13]

If we're talking about projects that are meant to be developing Duke Thomas, then it makes sense for the project to be Duke-centric. looking at it from that perspective, it's the more logical approach than the inverse. because the other characters are much more established, creative teams are going to be less likely to sideline them and more inclined to treat them as deuteragonist if they're in a book with Duke as the lead perspective. the inverse, as we all know, is not likely to be true. plus since characters like Tim, Cass, etc are more likely to be getting utilize elsewhere where they can be more centrally focused, it takes nothing from them to be deployed to support Duke from time to time; is that not the point of Batfamily network of characters? and I feel like the majority of the bat fandoms are mature enough to understand that. but I digress...

this is why I'm such a big proponent of DC transitioning Duke and The Outsiders over to the Black Lightning camp and just make a concerted campaign developing that corner of the DC landscape. people claim characters like Duke, Black Lightning, The Outsiders can't maintain a book, they don't have the fan base, etc. etc and that's why they have to be attached to Batman in one way or another. so it makes sense to consolidate their best elements and allow them to develop as their own entity.

If they stick characters like Tim, the Batgirls, and Oracle in a book to attract readers, and then focus on the least popular character. That will backfire and do more harm to Duke than good. They can't develop him at the expense of others, and you can't trick readers into buying books about him. At least not for for long. Reader won't like it and they'll take it out on Duke. We saw that with Harper. If they can't figure out how to develop him with other characters around then they need to reevaluate why Duke is around in the first place. Because The Batfamily doesn't exist to sell Duke.

[Ascended]

Voted for "Join Black Lightning in Freeland" (isn't Jeff's daughter Lightning around Duke's age? Possible love interest?) but I really just came here to say that I'm down with the idea lemonpeace dropped in the "any D-listers you wanna update?" thread on the general DC forum. That was a damned fine pitch that worked all of Duke's history into a viable direction. I'd read the hell out of that!

I liked Duke as the 'day time' hero and I liked him being the only Bat with powers. The stuff with the immortal Houses sounded interesting, though I didn't read Immortal Men during the New Age stuff. Duke has a lot going for him, a lot that could be folded into a compelling mythos, he just needs someone to give enough of a **** at DC to pull it all together. But mostly I'd accept almost any direction as long as he gets used right and DC does interesting things with him.

But I don't know about putting him on a team with the other Bats. Tim, the Batgirls, and Babs can't carry books right now and I doubt they could as a group, I don't see this benefitting Duke beyond giving him a place to show up for six-twelve issues before cancellation hits, and if he were the lead over the older, more established characters that could generate blowback he doesn't need, even if the thing wouldn't last long anyway.

Setting aside the pitches and just looking at what, realistically, 'could' be done with him, I feel like staying with the Outsiders or getting a regular gig in one of Batman's books is probably his best shot. I'd rather not see him playing sidekick for Bruce, he wouldn't get the page time he needs to grow and develop, much less the plot focus, but it's better than limbo.

And I suppose I wouldn't argue against a return of We Are Robin, since that was a fantastic update to the concept, but there'd have to be some kind of changes because the characters aren't in the same place they were then. This doesn't feel like a good way to develop and grow Duke's character but it might put him in a position/role where he gets more use, which is better than nothing....but not a direction I'd be happy to see.

[Pohzee]

I totally understand what Snyder was going for by trying to give Duke a distinct place in Gotham and therefore steered clear of associating him with the other teenaged characters, but in the long term I wonder if it has harmed his ability to integrate into "Batfamily" so to speak. Without established organic connections to the other characters his age he feels somewhat disconnected compared to the relationships between Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain and I wonder if fans of those characters came to view Duke Thomas as competition rather than a potential ally and friend to their favorite characters in the same way that all of the other characters have established friendships. I don't know if now is too late for that or if keeping him somewhat independent is the best course at this point.

[skyvolt2000]

I totally understand what Snyder was going for by trying to give Duke a distinct place in Gotham and therefore steered clear of associating him with the other teenaged characters, but in the long term I wonder if it has harmed his ability to integrate into "Batfamily" so to speak. Without established organic connections to the other characters his age he feels somewhat disconnected compared to the relationships between Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain and I wonder if fans of those characters came to view Duke Thomas as competition rather than a potential ally and friend to their favorite characters in the same way that all of the other characters have established friendships. I don't know if now is too late for that or if keeping him somewhat independent is the best course at this point.

Well if any of them did-you could understand why.

Two of those were deemed toxic by the former head of DC and were kept out of books.

You couldn't get mad at them because that was above EVERYONE'S head.
And we still don't know who else was kept off the board because of editorial.


I mean if you needed a black kid with some links to Bat family-Kevin Hudman from Tim Drake's book. A revived and revamped Black Spider's son. Crispus Allen has at least one son still around. If we must bend the rules Black Lighting has a nephew too.

But in most cases editorial gets in the way.

And I suppose I wouldn't argue against a return of We Are Robin, since that was a fantastic update to the concept, but there'd have to be some kind of changes because the characters aren't in the same place they were then. This doesn't feel like a good way to develop and grow Duke's character but it might put him in a position/role where he gets more use, which is better than nothing....but not a direction I'd be happy to see.

You can still do it but have it be a network where the others get the intel and Duke does the hero action.

Sort of like Newsboy Legion and the Guardian.

[Ascended]

You can still do it but have it be a network where the others get the intel and Duke does the hero action.

Sort of like Newsboy Legion and the Guardian.

Yeah something like that could work. I'll admit, I didn't read WAR (I didn't start to care for Duke until the powers and daytime hero stuff) but I've read about it, and lemonpeace recently sold me on grabbing the collection. But a proper update to the concept that takes Duke's growth and new story elements into account could do quite well for itself.

[Aahz]

I mean if you needed a black kid with some links to Bat family-Kevin Hudman from Tim Drake's book. A revived and revamped Black Spider's son. Crispus Allen has at least one son still around. If we must bend the rules Black Lighting has a nephew too.

There is also a Black Boy (of roughly the same age as Tim) Huntress adopted in her first series, that the later writers completely forgot about, and who's name I cant remember.

[Aahz]

But I don't know about putting him on a team with the other Bats. Tim, the Batgirls, and Babs can't carry books right now and I doubt they could as a group, I don't see this benefitting Duke beyond giving him a place to show up for six-twelve issues before cancellation hits, and if he were the lead over the older, more established characters that could generate blowback he doesn't need, even if the thing wouldn't last long anyway.

I think with a ecent writer and art that is more inline with the typical art in DC comics, I think a book like that would have at least a chance of success, opposed to the last books that seemed to want to appeal to the YA market which is imo not something that really works on the direct market.

[Ascended]

I think with a ecent writer and art that is more inline with the typical art in DC comics, I think a book like that would have at least a chance of success, opposed to the last books that seemed to want to appeal to the YA market which is imo not something that really works on the direct market.

Yeah, a more traditional book would probably have much better odds than something built for a YA or manga audience. DC's tried to get those folks into the LCS and it rarely works (some exceptions aside). Seems like the genres DC does best with, the most consistently, is the standard capes/spandex stuff and horror. Everything else is a struggle.

It's funny, because a lot of their characters now could flourish in other formats but can't get a fair shot in the direct market. Duke would probably do great in YA bookstore OGN's, y'know?

[skyvolt2000]

There is also a Black Boy (of roughly the same age as Tim) Huntress adopted in her first series, that the later writers completely forgot about, and who's name I cant remember.

I have those issues in question.

His name was James Cooper.

He lost his mother but he was able to make bombs.

He did appear with her in Justice League Quarterly books and was MIA when we got Huntress in the 93 Showcase series.

I think with a ecent writer and art that is more inline with the typical art in DC comics, I think a book like that would have at least a chance of success, opposed to the last books that seemed to want to appeal to the YA market which is imo not something that really works on the direct market.

Depending on the comic book store those YA books are available to be ordered by them. I want to say there is a month or two difference between when regular stores get them and comic stores can order them.

I don't see this benefitting Duke beyond giving him a place to show up for six-twelve issues before cancellation hits

Well don't do an ongoing.

Pull Rivers of London with Duke. Rivers of London is a UK Novel (since 2011) starring a black guy from one of the writers of the original era of Dr. Who. The novel has sold over millions of copies.
With Rivers of London they do minis. 9 since 2015.

I would say do 2 3-4 issue minis a year and do one trade for both. At least you will have building material. Even if you do say just 6 in 4 years. That would be fine.

That would be 3 new trades to add with All Star Batman, Batman & Signal, We Are Robin, Wayne Family Adventures, Batman Secret Files, Outsiders and toss in the Batman Urban Legends, Batman 100 Page, whatever will be in 2024 DC Power book. So we are guessing about 15-16 Duke (not just cameo) trades.

[skyvolt2000]

Yeah, a more traditional book would probably have much better odds than something built for a YA or manga audience. DC's tried to get those folks into the LCS and it rarely works (some exceptions aside). Seems like the genres DC does best with, the most consistently, is the standard capes/spandex stuff and horror. Everything else is a struggle.

It's funny, because a lot of their characters now could flourish in other formats but can't get a fair shot in the direct market. Duke would probably do great in YA bookstore OGN's, y'know?

The issue with that is most comic stores do no order the YA books. Because by the time the store can order them-places like Target has them months in advance for some reason.

My store does and other stores I go to do not have them.

Even fewer have Archie digests and those sell almost 5-7 million yearly.


I major advantage to the YA novels. SALES.

Like Target ALWAYS finds a way to have a special sale. If it's not 20% off or buy 2 get 1 free on books, dvds and music. Amazon does it too at times.

Like I have always said schools could always use more material besides Batman and Superman. Like I've said before the most checked out superheroes in my school district was Black Panther, Ms Marvel, Miles Morales, Supergirl & Batgirl (DC Super Hero Girls versions).

Covid and I guess WB reorganizing derailed a lot of the DC books we ordered. Because there is a demand for the Raven & Beast Boy line. Along with Wayne Family & Vixen Webtoon books. It's just taking forever to get them. My school won't get them until 2025.

[Ascended]

I don't think there's a ton of value to comic stores carrying bookstore OGN's anyway. At least not as a major aspect of their product line. Us Wednesday Warriors might take advantage of it, but casuals aren't gonna hunt down a LCS so they can grab a book they already saw at Barnes&Noble or Target, plus a LCS can't compete with a full sized bookstore or retailer that can run a ton of sales, as you mention, not to mention the retailer/bookstore will get their stock long before the LCS does, and the LCS will probably charge more.

No, I think the best bet there is to take the characters out of the LCS. You look at those OGN's, and the characters carrying them are doing great in that format but often can't carry a monthly title to save their lives. Raven and the other Titans do better in the YA bookstore line than they have in the LCS since the 1980's. Aqualad had a OGN that sold just fine, but Aquamen was cancelled before the first issue even came out.

If the direct market wants to do something with guys like that, awesome, if it looks good I'll grab it. But they'll likely do a lot better outside that format where they'll be able to reach an audience that won't write them off because there's 'too many Robins already' or whatever.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

If the club of heroes/Batman Inc. was still around, you can have Duke join them. They are also a global group so Duke moving out of Gotham could also be folded into it. Although I'm not sure Duke has a reason to relocate so you would have to tackle that first.

Something like Tynion's run on Detective Comics would also work. In that run, Batman formed a team with the legacies and Clayface so Duke would've been a natural fit. Between Duke and Tim, you have two capable leaders sp you could do a leadership struggle between them. Unless you wanna put Tim in the behind the scenes role as their Oracle figure (just mobile). Tim could be like the Watch Dogs protagonist while Duke leads from the front.

A White Knight spinoff about Duke's counterpart would be cool. I'm curious about that take on the character so maybe Tony Patrick could write it?