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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Cyclone_Ablaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythicalChicken View Post
    I've always thought history repeats itself in 20-year cycles; I remember this pretty much being the reaction to the Draco in the first place, so we're right on schedule I reckon.
    Right on time and right on schedule. lol
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  2. #17
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    The draco is dead and gone, gone forever and never coming back

  3. #18
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    The draco is dead and gone, gone forever and never coming back
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
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  4. #19
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    To be fair, despite it's infamy and memetic status among american super hero comic readership (as small as it has become) and the X-men fanbase in particular, is Cable's backstory at this point really that messy and convoluted compared to that of many characters and retcons introduced over the past 20+ years?

    It feels like people still like to point at the 90's and it's characters to laugh and call out how silly everything was back then, but taking a step back it could be argued that 00's and 10's have actualy produced a lot more messy things.

    Compared to someone like Rasputin, Cable's history seems pretty straightforward.
    That… was kind of my point. Wolverine’s backstory with everything that’s been layered onto it, Psylocke’s, Jean Grey’s history with the Phoenix, now Nightcrawler’s origin… they don’t make Cable’s look so daunting anymore.
    “Not as good as I once was… but I’m as good, once, as I ever was.”

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Im confused why is someone saying that Kurt and Greydon arent related anymore?

    They both have genes from Mystique so they are related, right?

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Im confused why is someone saying that Kurt and Greydon arent related anymore?

    They both have genes from Mystique so they are related, right?
    Yes, they should still be related, Mystique specifically says that there were other children.
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    Last edited by Su_Whisterfield; 11-29-2023 at 09:22 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Su_Whisterfield View Post
    The doc and nurse and villagers decide that there is demonic goings on in the castle and grab the flaming torches and pitchforks (do you know how hard it is to get a flaming torch and pitchfork in late 20th C Germany?).
    Burning torches are rather easy to improvise, though electric torches and portable lamps would be more likely to be used, but the question should rather be how there could still be enough pitchforks to go around, seeing how distant most modern farms would be from the towns existing near still preserved and inhabitated german castles. Or why an angry mob in late 20th century germany would rely on those rather than household garden tools, improvised weapons, sporting equipment or rifles and shotguns from the local "schutzenverein"?

    Did they at least had plastic fuel cannisters from their cars at hand to start the fire?

    Likewise why a castle being stormed and burned down by an angry mob wouldn't be quickly be caught and reported by local or country wide news media and causing a shocked reaction by the nations population, seeing how castles are important historic landmarks and hotspots for tourism in late 20th century.

    The yellow press would have been all over it: "Child of the devil??? - Local mob burns down historic castle over alleged demon child. BKA forced to investigate. Mayor calls event a disgrace and resigns. Green party accuses conservative district government of having turned a blind eye to radical mob mentality for too long. Family of count mourns."

    So that might indeed be a rabbit hole, the readers shouldn't go down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    That… was kind of my point. Wolverine’s backstory with everything that’s been layered onto it, Psylocke’s, Jean Grey’s history with the Phoenix, now Nightcrawler’s origin… they don’t make Cable’s look so daunting anymore.
    Cable's just happend to be the joke everyone liked to tell it seems.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Burning torches are rather easy to improvise, though electric torches and portable lamps would be more likely to be used, but the question should rather be how there could still be enough pitchforks to go around, seeing how distant most modern farms would be from the towns existing near still preserved and inhabitated german castles. Or why an angry mob in late 20th century germany would rely on those rather than household garden tools, improvised weapons, sporting equipment or rifles and shotguns from the local "schutzenverein"?

    Did they at least had plastic fuel cannisters from their cars at hand to start the fire?

    Likewise why a castle being stormed and burned down by an angry mob wouldn't be quickly be caught and reported by local or country wide news media and causing a shocked reaction by the nations population, seeing how castles are important historic landmarks and hotspots for tourism in late 20th century.

    The yellow press would have been all over it: "Child of the devil??? - Local mob burns down historic castle over alleged demon child. BKA forced to investigate. Mayor calls event a disgrace and resigns. Green party accuses conservative district government of having turned a blind eye to radical mob mentality for too long. Family of count mourns."

    So that might indeed be a rabbit hole, the readers shouldn't go down.



    Cable's just happend to be the joke everyone liked to tell it seems.
    I suspect Germany is similar to the UK; if someone set fire to one of our castles, there would be press all over it, and they would love the demon baby angle!

  9. #24
    Incredible Member Proxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I very much enjoyed it too and I found it believable in a comic book way. It adds a lot of nuance to Mystique and Destiny, and further explains why they never seemed to care all that much about Nightcrawler - Xavier erased the true events at their request. I liked how Destiny saw that Kurt needed to have the life he's had so he could be the hero that he is. That was my favorite part of it for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    [/B]

    I think I liked this bit the most as well, because of how it ties in with the main series. Kurt has been wondering why his life has contained so much suffering and how to still be a hero for his people in spite of it.

    This was favorite part too. Kurt literally being born as the shining light against the deepest darkness.

    But overall I thought the book was……..okay.
    I didn’t really like the beginning much, especially the ghost Bamf narration but if we have to ret-con Nightcrawler’s history again then I find this was a pretty comprehensive attempt.
    Kurt has learnt he was indeed wanted which is bound to have an effect on him and how he views himself but they’re never going to play happy families. Kurt, Destiny and Mystique are just too different in morals, actions and personality.His moms are still both awful people. I’m expecting drama when Destiny remembers her involvement.

    I do think this ret-con opens things up for some new and interesting stories.

    I’m very happy the Draco is ret-conned. Azazel’s involvement could have been handled better but it was……acceptable.

    My major nitpick is the wobbly timeline: Destiny was much older in this era but there’s no explanation of how she obtained her youth (no resurrection protocols available) and I think Rogues age is a bit off as well.

  10. #25
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Not really a fan of this retcon. It just feels like such an unnecessary retcon. Was the parentage messy given who his parents were and that he wasn’t conceived out of love? Sure. But what does retconning it to adhere to an intention that isn’t even relevant now actually change for the present? If anything, all it does is make both Mystique and Destiny look like even shittier parents for abandoning a child they conceived out of love and proceeding to not give a **** about him all the way up until the present day.

  11. #26
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    The retcon gives me the same feelings as some of nick spencers retcons during his spider man run. Sure you “fixed” something that no one liked, but you've just created something more convoluted. The stories still exist and you've jumped through hoops to make it make sense, when you should have just left it forgotten and moved on.

  12. #27
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I understand trying to take Azazel out of the equation as much as possible while honoring Claremont's original vision...but this feels like a really convoluted attempt at doing so and way too late to really matter at this point.

    And all the hoop jumping to try and make Mystique and Destiny come off like they weren't intentionally bad moms just feels pointless, especially in an era that's doubled down on how awful and selfish they both are. That's suddenly not going to change and I don't see Kurt suddenly getting chummy with his other mom. He barely wants anything to do with Mystique as it is.

  13. #28
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    I mean, I might be behind on my marvel mystical metaphysics but if Wanda’s chaos magic could infect the brain patterns Vision put in Virginia, then odds are assuming the form of a hell-lord probably gives Azazel enough mystical purchase on Kurt that some writer will likely revisit their connection (and have less baggage to work with)

    The most unbelievable thing about this is: why is Kurt’s last name Wagner?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    To be fair, despite it's infamy and memetic status among american super hero comic readership (as small as it has become) and the X-men fanbase in particular, is Cable's backstory at this point really that messy and convoluted compared to that of many characters and retcons introduced over the past 20+ years?

    It feels like people still like to point at the 90's and it's characters to laugh and call out how silly everything was back then, but taking a step back it could be argued that 00's and 10's have actualy produced a lot more messy things.

    Compared to someone like Rasputin, Cable's history seems pretty straightforward.
    Cable's history is actually not that convoluted, if you really think about.

    He's the son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey who was raised in a post-apocalyptic future and then traveled back to the present-day. See, I did it in a line!

    For adaptations, its even easy to ignore the 'clone of Jean Grey' part and just make him Cyclops and Jean's son from the future. That's what the TAS did after all.

  15. #30
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I understand trying to take Azazel out of the equation as much as possible while honoring Claremont's original vision...but this feels like a really convoluted attempt at doing so and way too late to really matter at this point.

    And all the hoop jumping to try and make Mystique and Destiny come off like they weren't intentionally bad moms just feels pointless, especially in an era that's doubled down on how awful and selfish they both are. That's suddenly not going to change and I don't see Kurt suddenly getting chummy with his other mom. He barely wants anything to do with Mystique as it is.
    Marvel seems to have this weird thing lately of “fixing” things that honestly never needed fixing long after it would even be relevant to fix (and in this case make it even more convoluted as they do mental gymnastics to make it fit). I just find it amazing how this was a priority to be fixed yet Spider-Man making a deal with the devil to sell his marriage is a-ok.

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