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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    I actually thought it was very easy to follow and made sense.

    I dig it.

    But I knew after reading it a lot of fans would have issues with it.
    Same. As the Good Lord Claremont intended.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    I mean, I might be behind on my marvel mystical metaphysics but if Wanda’s chaos magic could infect the brain patterns Vision put in Virginia, then odds are assuming the form of a hell-lord probably gives Azazel enough mystical purchase on Kurt that some writer will likely revisit their connection (and have less baggage to work with)

    he most unbelievable thing about this is: why is Kurt’s last name Wagner?
    Irene gave Kurt to Margali, I wonder if she passed him over saying that he was the late, unlamented Count’s bastard? But that begs the question of how she knew Margali? One of her prophecies? But that doesn’t explain how she got the baby to Margali, given she was still bedbound after the birth.
    Still willing to handwave all this away to be rid of The Draco.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Cable's history is actually not that convoluted, if you really think about.

    He's the son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey who was raised in a post-apocalyptic future and then traveled back to the present-day. See, I did it in a line!

    For adaptations, its even easy to ignore the 'clone of Jean Grey' part and just make him Cyclops and Jean's son from the future. That's what the TAS did after all.
    Indeed.

    Most of the fundamental building blocks of Cable's history involve elements which are common knowledge to even casual X-men fans (Cyclops, Jean Grey and by extension Mister Sinister and Apocalypse) and his time travel plot isn't all that different from what can be found in many science fiction stories including parodies like Futurama.

    It's telling that X-men TAS had no problem using the character.

    Funny enough even the "son of a Jean Grey clone" element can arguably still be a valid element for adaption since it adds an imperfection to his heritage and would make a familiar bond with the real Jean more impactfull. They are just free to streamline or leave it out.

    Meanwhile how would one explain someone like Rasputin and the reason for her existing and being in the 616 universe?

    Would "Artifical mutant created by Mister Sinister 1000 years in a distant dystopian future, who's X-gene combines the powers of 5 different mutants, plus she has Magik's Soulsword and was send back in time via a data stream." be enough?
    Or would one need to also explain the entire retcon involving Moira X, her powers to reboot the univese, Mister Sinister using her powers to create a machine that he used to reboot the universe and send information back to himself, how he created said dystopian future by turning the leadership of the nation of Krakoa amoral, what the nation of Krakoa is, who his 3 fellow Sinister Clones are, how he created Rasputin, why she was send back via the data and that she allready existed in an alternate dystopian future, but which has nothing to do with the dystopian future the current Rasputin is from?

    So yeah. Cable is rather tame by comparison, regardless of how many messy elements writers added to his history over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Su_Whisterfield View Post
    Irene gave Kurt to Margali, I wonder if she passed him over saying that he was the late, unlamented Count’s bastard? But that begs the question of how she knew Margali? One of her prophecies? But that doesn’t explain how she got the baby to Margali, given she was still bedbound after the birth.
    Still willing to handwave all this away to be rid of The Draco.
    Considering the sense of humor Destiny has displayed in the past, like when she gave Mystique precise instructions on where to put her ashes, maybe she wrote "please take care of Kurt" on the back of a sheet from Richard Wagner's "The Fairies" (Die Feen). So that when Margali considered what name to give him, she just picked Wagner as surname.
    Last edited by Grunty; 11-29-2023 at 11:39 AM.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member RAWRlrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Marvel seems to have this weird thing lately of “fixing” things that honestly never needed fixing long after it would even be relevant to fix (and in this case make it even more convoluted as they do mental gymnastics to make it fit). I just find it amazing how this was a priority to be fixed yet Spider-Man making a deal with the devil to sell his marriage is a-ok.
    I wonder how much is marvel vs how much is editorial. Plus it seems like they feel strongly about the marriage and him being too adult, whereas I doubt too many cared about the draco.

  5. #35
    House of Frost NewMutant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Same. As the Good Lord Claremont intended.
    Amen. The Mystique and Destiny has been one of the best parts of the Krakoan era and all originates from Lord Claremont. What a deliciously dangerous duo.
    I was trying to do too much and not doing any of it as well as I could. But I've had a change of mind... though not everyone shall enjoy it. I will.

    #midnightermonday #uglystepchildren #lolgbtcomedyshow

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Marvel seems to have this weird thing lately of “fixing” things that honestly never needed fixing long after it would even be relevant to fix (and in this case make it even more convoluted as they do mental gymnastics to make it fit). I just find it amazing how this was a priority to be fixed yet Spider-Man making a deal with the devil to sell his marriage is a-ok.
    Doesn’t need fixing? Something that adds diversity and was intended from the beginning? Sounds like your real issue is w Spider-Man editors. X-stories shouldn’t suffer just because Peter is being written badly.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member ermac's Avatar
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    This was one of my favorite Krakoa Era issues.

    I almost cried thinking about how Kurt must be feeling now.

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member Icefanatic's Avatar
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    A few points:

    Despite many people saying it, this was NOT Chris Claremont's original intention. As it is fairly well known, CC wanted the demonic Nightmare character appearing in Doctor Strange to be Nightcrawler's father, and also that the sulfuric dimension that Kurt teleported through to be Nightmare's realm. Doctor Strange's writer Roger Stern blocked it for multiple reasons.

    So CC went back to the drawing board trying various ideas and eventually settled on the idea that Mystique and Destiny were lovers, that Mystique transformed into a man and impregnated Destiny and she gave birth to Nightcrawler. He took a few passes at it but couldn't make the story work for a few reasons; not least of all, Irene would have to be de-aged for the story and then re-aged after it to fit the continuity, which was something writers and editors genuinely cared about back then.

    The much-maligned 'Draco' arc was an attempt to restore 'Lord' Claremont's ACTUAL original intentions, with Azazel as a substitute for Nightmare.

    This story is the stuff of bad fanfic, and as with bad fanfic, it will find an audience who loves it. We've seen a lot of bad fanfic made 'cannon' in recent years, but this is an era where Kitty Pryde remembers being Shadowkat, not Shadowcat, and this story is no more 'real' than that is and will eventually be washed away with the Age of Krakoa, as with the Age of Apocalypse before it...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Su_Whisterfield View Post
    Blue origins

    This is a linear narrative, in some ways a simple ret-con, but I’m sure it will be talked about for years.

    We start with the snarky little white ghost bamf, seen in Uncanny Spiderman (and probably Legion?) narrating the story so far; Mystique being mind-assaulted by Xavier at the Gala, falling from a hight, surviving, obviously and stealing an Orchis boat to make her escape from the island. She is not in a very stable state of mind.

    We then catch up with her in Central Park, having that conversation with Kurt, started in Uncanny Spiderman 4. Kurt narrates the pages we saw in the preview; the current canon of Azazal and Mystique, Count Wagner and sex and death in suspiciously rural Bavaria. Raven mentions that, while pursued by the torch wearing mob*, she had to go back to the Count’s for her wife.

    *tm Marvel

    The Wife is news to Kurt and derails his narration, this wasn’t part of any version of his life story he’s had up until now. Mystique is still clearly unstable after the Gala affair, Kurt uses his Hope Sword (no, not explaining that now, go read the books) to cut her gun apart. He gives Raven his sword and her mind shatters.

    We get a (partial) potted history of Raven and Irene’s relationship, they seem to have spent the 20th Century embezzling their way around Europe, sleeping with guys, milking them for their money and power, Count Wagner being one of their marks. Azazel is one of Wagner’s business associates, Raven beds him, he reveals his demonic nature, she is not at all impressed. “All I ever wanted was longevity, liberty, and luxury. What could he offer that I couldn’t take for myself.” Irene encouraged the affair.

    Bed scene between our protaganists. Irene wants a baby with Raven. So that’s what Raven gives her.

    “I have lived for years as sapiens males. Years more as females. Do you know what I have observed? They’re all as awful as each other. The only true binary division is not between genders, sexes or sexualities. It lies between those who are allowed to be who they wish and those denied that right. I am Raven Darkholme. Whatever else I am – or I am not – or I am not, whether it be for a lifetime or a single night, it is for nobody but me to say.”


    Kurt is listening to this and his head must be so screwed up by the infodump, his whole history is being rewritten before him.

    Raven goes into detail about how good her metamorphic abilities really are, how they are much more than skin deep. It sounds as though (rather like her foster daughter) she takes something from the forms she creates, from Count Wagner, from Azazel.

    Irene persuades her to impregnate her, and they are hoping for a girl.

    Information page from our old friend, Dr Nemesis, detailing some of Raven’s metamorphic potential.

    Back to her story, Raven grows a bump at the same rate as Irene, to fool her husband Count Wagner, but tongues still wag. She gives Azazel the boot. Wagner finds her and Irene in bed (Strumpets! Sapphist perverts!) and Raven kills him. She takes his face and his role, dismisses the staff. She also keeps the baby bump to match Irene’s, they are very close, very happy. “We both carried him.”

    Irene gives birth in Wagner’s castle, with a doctor and nurse in attendance, her precog abilities tell her it won’t be easy. There is a single panel with the worst art in the issue, unless Irene is a horse (it’s not the giving birth on your knees, which is an, ahem, unusual choice, it’s the distance between her and the doctor which is amusing me greatly). The doctor says that the baby is blue and deformed… he sure is, but not in the way the doctor thinks… Raven wants her beloved baby to see her real face so she takes her true form, in front of the doctor and nurse.

    The doc and nurse and villagers decide that there is demonic goings on in the castle and grab the flaming torches and pitchforks (do you know how hard it is to get a flaming torch and pitchfork in late 20th C Germany?). Raven runs with the baby, Irene sends her. The villagers torch the castle, where Irene is still bedbound after the difficult birth. Raven leaves Kurt in the wood, like a fairy child, and goes back for her wife. Irene is gone and when she gets back to the wood, so is her baby.

    Kurt takes off his mask and reveals who he is to her, but, of course, she knows, she may be mad but she’s not daft. Or blind.

    Kurt wants to talk, Raven wants to push on with her recovering memories. Irene hides herself from Raven for years, while Mystique goes around being her murderous self, she allows herself to be found when Rogue comes into the picture, Irene knows what will happen to little Anna-Marie if she and Raven don’t adopt her. Once the Murder Wives are reunited in her upbringing, Irene confesses that she set up the situation with Azazel. It was, as usual, all about a precog vision. Azazel was going to become all powerful, powerful enough to destroy them, so Irene wanted to distract him with the bait of an heir. But it was a double bind, Azazel’s phoney heir would thwart all his plans and lead to his downfall. Raven and Irene’s son would be a ‘glowing thread which drives back the night’ across every future she can see (so no pressure there, Kurt, me lad). She arranged Margali Szardos to collect him from the woods.

    Irene has a plan to erase the pain of losing their boy. Enter one C.Xavier Esq, shady mental deals his speciality. The Murder Wives ask him to edit their memories (though Raven won’t lose the knowledge that Kurt is hers) and he even erases his own memory of doing it. Which is why Raven breaks down at the Gala; Chuck destroyed the block in her mind. She is not amused.

    “I let him seal my love for you, ohh, I let him steal the life we should have had… my baby… what have I done to my baby?”

    Raven and Kurt hug.

    Fin.



    The fall out is going to be epic.

    Yes, it’s flawed, particularly the Azazel motivation stuff but I’ll put up with that for the Murder Wives getting their son back and Kurt getting three mad mothers rather than just two. Logan needs three mad Mothers-In-Law…

    I think I would have Azazel use a spell to wipe their memories, not Chuck, and to de-age Irene too (he could have effected Kurt’s appearance while doing so, as a sort of nasty Easter Egg).

    It gives both Irene and Raven more depth, nuance, motivation and some lovely tender moments. Si’s analysis of their relationship feels very canny; they don’t always like each other, have different motivations and goals, but they love each other and will do almost anything for each other.

    There is plenty of material for new stories, new vendettas. It’s completely in character for Chuck to edit their memories, it’s the least of the dodgy stuff he’s done over the years. He’s been meddling in Kurt’s life for longer than Kurt was aware. Kurt’s feelings about this are mostly not addressed, which is fine for now, this really was Raven’s story, but it’s going to have to be addressed at some point.


    I find it hilarious that the retcon is basically doing what claremont had intended decades ago., but was forbidden to do.

  10. #40

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    Marvel: we need someone to take the Draco retcon and make it worse.

    Spurrier: hold my beer, fam.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    The real retcon is that Rogue had a name when she was a child, forgot that she had a name, and then later happened to pick that exact same name as a pseudonym for herself. Very convenient.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    I was really looking forward to reading how Spurrier would tackle this - I think we all expected the end result of Raven and Irene being Kurt's biological parents so it was more of a matter of how to get there. And I think Spurrier crafted a beautiful story here, with great insights into Mystique's mind and her relationship with Destiny, and a tale that moves fairly well around existing continuity, weaving in and explaning things that had already been established and adding a new layer onto them.

    I also really loved what Destiny's visions told her about Kurt and I found it a nice twist that Charles was involved in making the mothers forget and that his attack on Raven's mind at the Gala broke his own mindwipe on her. And now I simply cannot wait to see Irene reunited with her boy.

  13. #43
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    Eh, nothing earth-shattering here. As these sort of retcons for X-characters go, it's fine. I don't feel like it erased anything at least, just added more onto what was here before.

    Granted, it is a more convoluted origin overall, but that's almost become a fun game in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    So Abyss is not Kurt’s half brother. Too bad.

    But now Nightcrawler is not half brothers to Graydon Creed, but Irene’s daughter Justine.

    Also, Graydon Creed is older than Nightcrawler, right?
    So Mystique had already given birth and abandoned Graydon before these events?
    I'm getting the impression that Azazel -- and thus Abyss -- is still genetically related to Kurt here because of Azazel's relations with Mystique. It's said her powers can take more than just the appearance of the person whose form she assumes, right? And since she actually *ahem* received Azazel's DNA, it's probable that her powers configured that into the form of him she took, and then included it in the fertilization of Destiny's egg.

    It may even be that Mystique's power required the seed in order to simulate it.

  14. #44
    Spectacular Member KylunFan's Avatar
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    This issue was more interested in threading continuity together and retconning old stories than it was in actually telling an interesting story itself.

    Don't get me wrong I enjoyed it to some extent and I much prefer Mystique/Destiny as Kurt's parents to Azazel. I wish it had more of an actual story to it, rather than being a comic that exists just to talk about old comics that people didn't like so much.

    Oh well it's still a better origin than the Draco!

  15. #45
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    This has got to be one of the dumbest retcons in X-men history. It simply doesnt work and it is inconsistent with long established lore. Destiny was resurrected in a younger body but she has been OLD for majority of her history. Any eggs she would have had would have been dust by the time Kurt was concieved. She was drawn young here but that doesnt track a all.

    The other thing was Rogue being in this book. According to it, they found her 5 years after Kurt was born. Rogue was around 13 or so when they originally found her but she was drawn very young looking here. She is supposed to be younger than Kurt by a few years but they deaged her to look around 5ish. So this 5 year old just ran away from him and they kidnapped her? There are so many holes in this plot once you start to break it down

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