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  1. #46
    Fantastic Member Icefanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    This has got to be one of the dumbest retcons in X-men history. It simply doesnt work and it is inconsistent with long established lore. Destiny was resurrected in a younger body but she has been OLD for majority of her history. Any eggs she would have had would have been dust by the time Kurt was concieved. She was drawn young here but that doesnt track a all.

    The other thing was Rogue being in this book. According to it, they found her 5 years after Kurt was born. Rogue was around 13 or so when they originally found her but she was drawn very young looking here. She is supposed to be younger than Kurt by a few years but they deaged her to look around 5ish. So this 5 year old just ran away from him and they kidnapped her? There are so many holes in this plot once you start to break it down
    Yep, which is why Claremont gave up on it, because he couldn't make it work. Which is being ignored in favor of the false-but-sexier 'Marvel wouldn't let him!'

    I long for the day when works of bad fanfic go back to being the works of fans, and not the stuff being published every month.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    A few points:

    Despite many people saying it, this was NOT Chris Claremont's original intention. As it is fairly well known, CC wanted the demonic Nightmare character appearing in Doctor Strange to be Nightcrawler's father, and also that the sulfuric dimension that Kurt teleported through to be Nightmare's realm. Doctor Strange's writer Roger Stern blocked it for multiple reasons.

    So CC went back to the drawing board trying various ideas and eventually settled on the idea that Mystique and Destiny were lovers, that Mystique transformed into a man and impregnated Destiny and she gave birth to Nightcrawler. He took a few passes at it but couldn't make the story work for a few reasons; not least of all, Irene would have to be de-aged for the story and then re-aged after it to fit the continuity, which was something writers and editors genuinely cared about back then.

    The much-maligned 'Draco' arc was an attempt to restore 'Lord' Claremont's ACTUAL original intentions, with Azazel as a substitute for Nightmare.

    This story is the stuff of bad fanfic, and as with bad fanfic, it will find an audience who loves it. We've seen a lot of bad fanfic made 'cannon' in recent years, but this is an era where Kitty Pryde remembers being Shadowkat, not Shadowcat, and this story is no more 'real' than that is and will eventually be washed away with the Age of Krakoa, as with the Age of Apocalypse before it...
    It is interesting how this retcon is even reconning real life, because you are correct Nightmare was always his intended father and Mystique as the father was plan B. But I guess that story isn't going to sell this comic as well.

    Unfortunately I think your read on the story as bad fanfic is also true. Seems like they jumped through a million hoops to try and please everyone, which for some will no doubt work but for me in no way makes for an interesting read.

  3. #48
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Stupid. Makes no sense, makes a joke of a a villain with potential, and was likely just another attempt to pander. Which some people will still eat up.

    People pretend that it's honoring Claremont's vision but that ignores the fact that Nightmare was his first choice and you should likewise honor his wishes to make Kitty the black cosmic daughter Storm and T'Challa or whatever and have endgame be Scott with Maddie and Jean with Logan.
    Last edited by KurtW95; 11-29-2023 at 04:32 PM.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  4. #49
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    …so Destiny is the worst. And gambit was right.

    Rogue did look like 4 or 5 here, that’s an interesting choice…

  5. #50
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    LOL so far my bingo card is nailing every last person I knew was going to gnash teeth about this retcon. Move over Irene Adler, there's a new precog in town.

  6. #51
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    This was one of my favorite Krakoa Era issues.

    I almost cried thinking about how Kurt must be feeling now.
    Just read it myself. In terms of Mystique and Destiny being the biological parents, I remember first reading about it here on these message boards decades ago. I remember some posters then (as I'm sure with many readers now) both in agreement and disagreement with that. Me....it'll take time. But I think it works.

    However, the most notably part of this issue was Kurt. That last page, the talk about forgiveness, the light in the darkness, the earlier parts about his sword of hope, while I could see his pain this issue, I could also see him going through that pain. And willing to go through with it with Mystique.

    As a Catholic, I see that as a show of Kurt's faith (though it's been a while. Is Kurt still Catholic?). As someone looking at him through a secular lens, I see that as a show of Kurt's immense compassion for others. In any case, the issue made me a bigger fan of Nightcrawler.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  7. #52
    Fantastic Member Ilargi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    …so Destiny is the worst. And gambit was right.

    Rogue did look like 4 or 5 here, that’s an interesting choice…

    Gambit is always right.

    Yeah, A 4yo Rogue spending a month on the street alone doesn't make much sense. but I'm not going to complain about that in this comic precisely. Lol

  8. #53
    Fantastic Member Icefanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    LOL so far my bingo card is nailing every last person I knew was going to gnash teeth about this retcon. Move over Irene Adler, there's a new precog in town.
    Just as it was obvious those who would eat it up with a spoon. Don't need to be a precog for that...

  9. #54
    Fantastic Member Til's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican View Post
    I'm getting the impression that Azazel -- and thus Abyss -- is still genetically related to Kurt here because of Azazel's relations with Mystique. It's said her powers can take more than just the appearance of the person whose form she assumes, right? And since she actually *ahem* received Azazel's DNA, it's probable that her powers configured that into the form of him she took, and then included it in the fertilization of Destiny's egg.

    It may even be that Mystique's power required the seed in order to simulate it.
    I definitely got the impression that Kurt still has some genetic ties to Azazel. There's a panel where Mystique talks about how the DNA of people she's been with are like shades of paint for her to use. This is how Spurrier explains Kurt having some of Azazel's traits. Mystique shifted some of her donor DNA to be Azazel's. So he's no longer Kurt's father, but Kurt does carry his genetic code, in addition to Mystique and Destiny's. This also keeps the mechanics of how parts of The Draco worked intact.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    Just as it was obvious those who would eat it up with a spoon. Don't need to be a precog for that...
    LOL, only if you take for granted that anyone who isn't gnashing their teeth at it is actually eating it up with a spoon, versus just...not bothered, whether or some of us feel a particular stake in it one way or another.

  11. #56
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    Tbh I'm willing to overlook Destiny being too old to have kids. She's a mutant; her biology doesn't have to work like a normal human's. The fact that she's practically Methuselah already shows her body isn't bound to some of our basic human limitations. Even Mystique defied biology here. So her being able to bear children doesn't seem to out of the ordinary. Plus her supposed grandson, Trevor Chase, was a little kid. Unless Destiny's kid was old as balls when they had him, Destiny would have had to have her kid a little later in life.

    As for the retcon, yeah there are holes. They should have just had Hellion go back in time and father Nightcrawler, thus explaining his black hair and ability to pick up women. Hellion's creators said they pictured him being of German descent, so there's another link.
    Last edited by Rift; 11-29-2023 at 05:12 PM.
    2023: The Year of Hellion

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    Tbh I'm willing to overlook Destiny being too old to have kids. She's a mutant; her biology doesn't have to work like a normal human's. The fact that she's practically Methuselah already shows her body isn't bound to some of our basic human limitations. Even Mystique defied biology here. So her being able to bear children doesn't seem to out of the ordinary. Plus her supposed grandson, Trevor Chase, was a little kid. Unless Destiny's kid was old as balls when they had him, Destiny would have had to have her kid a little later in life.

    As for the retcon, yeah there are holes. They should have just had Hellion go back in time and father Nightcrawler, thus explaining his black hair and ability to pick up women.
    That part didn't bother me much because its also worth noting that Irene was a long time associate of Nathaniel Essex, and also worked on the Black Womb project. Its easy for me to buy that she was ahead of the curve in some respects, in regards to her own genetic savviness...at least enough to have her eggs frozen when she was younger, even if it wasn't commonplace yet, and some handwavey Marvel science letting her have a viable pregnancy much later in life using her eggs & Black Womb know-how.

  13. #58
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    I'm here for this retcon!
    My only issues...
    >While I can see Destiny being a sexy septuagenarian, wouldn't she have been well into her 90s or more by the time she got pregnant with Kurt? Did her visions lead her to a fountain of youth that suddenly gave out once she gave birth, causing her to suddenly age worse than Movie Magneto in the 90s (Fassbender => McKellen)?
    >I dislike the ongoing thrust to turn Mystique into a more sympathetic character while making Destiny into the cold/heartless one (whose cold/heartless actions all get blamed on her visions). Just let the villainess be villainous. Let Mystique ditch her love and her baby to save her own blue skin... but feel horrible about it. At least she was still portrayed as horrible to her other numerous spawn.
    >Shouldn't someone able to manipulate their form (and now their own genetic code) be able to not get pregnant when it would be inconvenient?
    >...and Xavier's involved in yet another questionable mind wipe scenario, once again also involving auto-amnesia.
    Last edited by nx01a; 11-29-2023 at 05:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  14. #59

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    Cheap fanservice. Yawn.

  15. #60
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    Tbh I'm willing to overlook Destiny being too old to have kids. She's a mutant; her biology doesn't have to work like a normal human's. The fact that she's practically Methuselah already shows her body isn't bound to some of our basic human limitations. Even Mystique defied biology here. So her being able to bear children doesn't seem to out of the ordinary. Plus her supposed grandson, Trevor Chase, was a little kid. Unless Destiny's kid was old as balls when they had him, Destiny would have had to have her kid a little later in life.

    As for the retcon, yeah there are holes. They should have just had Hellion go back in time and father Nightcrawler, thus explaining his black hair and ability to pick up women. Hellion's creators said they pictured him being of German descent, so there's another link.
    I dont think that tracks bc they intentionally made her look like she's in her 20s bc they knew she was too old to have a child. if mutant biology was a valid excuse, they'd have left her looking old as she originally was. And that right there is a big retcon/inconsistency bc she should not have looked that young

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