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  1. #61
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I dont think that tracks bc they intentionally made her look like she's in her 20s bc they knew she was too old to have a child. if mutant biology was a valid excuse, they'd have left her looking old as she originally was. And that right there is a big retcon/inconsistency bc she should not have looked that young
    I agree. I think they should have made her an old hag when she gave birth. It would have been funnier.
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  2. #62
    Mighty Member Captain Nash's Avatar
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    This was alright as a retcon, more similar to what I think CC wanted to do originally....but I'm happy with this retcon simply because it nullifies the most crucial parts of the God awful Draco storyline. Sure Azazel is still involved, but not as closely intertwined to Nightcrawler as he was written nearly 20 years ago.

  3. #63
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Just read it myself. In terms of Mystique and Destiny being the biological parents, I remember first reading about it here on these message boards decades ago. I remember some posters then (as I'm sure with many readers now) both in agreement and disagreement with that. Me....it'll take time. But I think it works.

    However, the most notably part of this issue was Kurt. That last page, the talk about forgiveness, the light in the darkness, the earlier parts about his sword of hope, while I could see his pain this issue, I could also see him going through that pain. And willing to go through with it with Mystique.

    As a Catholic, I see that as a show of Kurt's faith (though it's been a while. Is Kurt still Catholic?). As someone looking at him through a secular lens, I see that as a show of Kurt's immense compassion for others. In any case, the issue made me a bigger fan of Nightcrawler.
    I was just saying something similar to some friends, that this made me love Kurt even more. What Destiny said about him, how in every future his is the glowing thread that drives back the night, made this scene from his Immortal issue, #7, that much more special to me.



    It's one of my single favorite issues of this era and even a little more now.
    Last edited by JB; 11-29-2023 at 05:40 PM.
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  4. #64
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    I am intrigued by the fact that Irene according to this genuinely does not remember that Kurt is her son. I'm not saying that gives her a free pass for how she's treated him over the years - you could easily argue that her asking Xavier to change her memories to fit the narrative that Kurt was Azazel and Raven's son was a cop-out on her part, trying to relieve herself of the guilt of offering up her own son as a sacrificial lamb for the sake of who he'd become at the expense of having a loving childhood safe with his parents. BUT it does create context for her always referring to Kurt as Raven's boy, like in Immortal X-Men - at the moment, she genuinely takes for granted that he's one of the kids Raven had with someone else in their various off periods, rather than her own child that she carried.

    So I'm very interested in what kind of relationship Kurt & Irene might have moving forward, once that's revealed to her or her own memories are restored. Will she continue to rebuff Kurt as she doubles down and insists no I was right to do what I did, will we see any indication she feels guilt and is overcompensating for it, etc.

  5. #65

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    I've never really been a fan of Spurrier's work, and this issue did not change that sentiment. What a sloppy story. I mean, I'm glad the whole Azazel thing was undone essentially, but they should have just let Lord Claremont tell this story if they were going to do it. And have Irene at least look like a 50 year old, even if she was much older, to kinda align with her elderly appearance in the 1980's books. Kurt turned 21 in that era, so it's not a big gap. For her to go from fresh faced 20-something to 70+ wrinkled granny in about 20 years doesn't really make sense.

    Also, Professor mindwiping them while walking doesn't make sense; he was paralyzed at about age 25 or so, a little after leaving Oxford and the war, explicitly 10 years before X-Men#1. He had only met Ororo, Shadow King, Magneto, Sage, and Amelia Voght at that point, and returned to the US with Amelia, crippled. So either that scene takes place before he left for Oxford(at like, age 16), or it happens when he's back in the US with Amelia, pre-X-Men, but paralyzed. Maybe I missed some other retcons about him and Mystique's history, but the timing just doesn't work. Also, canon has been clear that Rogue was a more like a tween-young teenager when she was adopted, not a tiny child.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    The draco is dead and gone, gone forever and never coming back
    On the contrary , this ensures that the Draco never goes away

    Since the whole point now of Nightcrawler to begin with in the first place is DEFENSE VS AZAZEL (who is apparently destined to become ruler of Earth-616) which is only possible if Kurt is enough of Azazel’s biological son to counter him (which is how Azazel was still able to control him in the Draco and how he was able to defeat Azazel in Jason Aaron’s story)

    And he is still half-brothers with Abyss and Kiwi Black because Mystique used Azazel’s genetic information (apparently fused with Baron Wagner’s genetic information) along with her own , in order to create working sperm viable enough to impregnate Destiny
    Last edited by EldonMaguan; 11-30-2023 at 07:33 AM.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    Yep, which is why Claremont gave up on it, because he couldn't make it work. Which is being ignored in favor of the false-but-sexier 'Marvel wouldn't let him!'

    I long for the day when works of bad fanfic go back to being the works of fans, and not the stuff being published every month.
    Claremont wasn’t allowed to do the Destiny and Mystique parental lineage story because the Comics Code Authority rules at that time forbade the explicit portrayal of LGBT characters. Not to mention Jim Shooter’s editorial mandate that gay characters weren’t allowed to be portrayed on the page. I thought this was common knowledge.
    Emma Frost, Rogue, Felicia Hardy, Helena Bertinelli, Allison Blaire, Barbara Gordon, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, Illyana Rasputin, Ororo Munroe, Harleen Quinzel, Lorna Dane, Irene Adler, Kate Kane, Rachel Grey Summers, Jean Grey, Diana Prince, Barbara Ann Minerva, Donna Troy, Jennifer Walters, Gwen Stacy, Wanda Maximoff = PERFECTION!

  8. #68

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    I have a problem with Raven's powers working like that. So she's basically a skrull now? Imitating not just appearances but full genetic codes? How does she access this information? Just from looking at someone?

    Beyond that. I'm leaving it alone. Carry on, Kurt. Still my favorite X-Man.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member Mutant X's Avatar
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    A retcon works when it explains some past actions not contradicting it, or show a different perspective adding new info that makes sense, or remove bad plot. In short, it improves an already told story.
    This one shot doesn't do any of it.

    We have a well established relationship between Kurt and Raven where she dumped him because of his appearance. What makes Mystique much more interesting character then this loving mother/father that had lost her son.

    Xavier's erasing Destiny and Mystique memories is as lame as Bendis' story where Raven and Xavier were married.

    And last, it didn't remove the terrible Draco story. It's integrated to this new version, and made worse with Kurt's and Azazel's exactly same visual and powers being just a coincidence and a lord of Hell not be able to recognize his own offspring.

    Terrible retcon in all aspects.

    Besides, it's an example of how x-office is willing to destroy what Hickman proposed. They are creating new Omega mutants from nowhere.

  10. #70
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    Spurrier made an explicit point to say that Mystique was NOT omega, how are you literally going to raise that as a complaint lol. Was potential maybe seeded for some future writer to make the leap and have her do something that would according to what Nemesis outlined here, make her such? Yes, sure, but this story very explicitly did NOT claim her to be an omega, so....what was destroyed?

    You can't blame a story for doing something that the story didn't actually even attempt to do.
    Last edited by BobbysWorld; 11-29-2023 at 06:47 PM.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member Mutant X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    Spurrier made an explicit point to say that Mystique was NOT omega, how are you literally going to raise that as a complaint lol. Was potential maybe seeded for some future writer to make the leap and have her do something that would according to what Nemesis outlined here, make her such? Yes, sure, but this story very explicitly did NOT claim her to be an omega, so....what was destroyed?

    You can't blame a story for doing something that the story didn't actually even attempt to do.
    Nemesis didn't know she replicated Azazel's mutant gene and passed it to Kurt.
    Basically confirming her as a Omega.

  12. #72
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I was just saying something similar to some friends, that this made me love Kurt even more. What Destiny said about him, how in every future his is the glowing thread that drives back the night, made this scene from his Immortal issue, #7, that much more special to me.



    It's one of my single favorite issues of this era and even a little more now.
    That's a cool scene. Encapsulates what I mentioned before about Kurt. Thanks!
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Ablaze View Post
    I give this Book 4/10

    This Retconned was just unnecessary. It does nothing for Nightcrawler as character as whole. I understand what they were going for, but at the same time WHY. I'm glad Kurt finally, got the closure he needed....I guess? I mean Uncanny Spider-Man #4 alludes to something different, but whatever.

    This Retconned was NOT good. Makes things more confusing. But, that's just my Opinion.
    I guessed it by trying to make up the most out there possibility... the one they wouldn't go for cause it was to convoluted... and I got it.
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

  14. #74
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    I have a problem with Raven's powers working like that. So she's basically a skrull now? Imitating not just appearances but full genetic codes? How does she access this information? Just from looking at someone?

    Beyond that. I'm leaving it alone. Carry on, Kurt. Still my favorite X-Man.
    At this point she might as well be the Pokémon Ditto. Really with how they’ve written this, what’s stopping a future writer from essentially saying that she can copy someone else’s powers by mimicking their genetic code? This is basically opening Pandora’s Box with her.

  15. #75
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I was just saying something similar to some friends, that this made me love Kurt even more. What Destiny said about him, how in every future his is the glowing thread that drives back the night, made this scene from his Immortal issue, #7, that much more special to me.



    It's one of my single favorite issues of this era and even a little more now.
    A part of me preferred her as the bitter and cold step-mom. Just becuase that moment in Axe was also funny.

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