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  1. #1
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    Default Composite UFC Fighter vs Tifa Lockhart

    1. Round 1: stacked composite UFC Fighter vs Pre-remake Tifa
    2. Round 2: stacked Composite UFC Fighter vs remake!Tifa

    the fights are h2h only and no Materias allowed for Tifa herself here
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  2. #2
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    You do know that Tifa beats big robots down with her fists and fights 80 foot tall Godzilla-types, right?

  3. #3

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    Even lowballing Tifa would leave her as presented in Advent Children.

  4. #4
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Stacked Composite UFC guy is hypersonic in speed and can lift in excess of forty tons, just to note.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  5. #5
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    That should be right around Tifa's *stats* (I mark it as between mach 5 and 6 based on some dodgy googling of active UFC fighters and just multiplying average human running speed, which I think is fairly reasonable) without me being terribly committed to analyzing her speed outside of trivial bullet dodging. But Tifa's skills match Tifa's stats and lifestyle. Composite UFC fighter is just really really good at fighting in the octagon, but that should be kind of useless here. Things like ground fighting and a whole class of grappling are not really going to do anything once you're strong enough to break everything around you or lift a lot of weight without any leverage.

    The numbers can be manipulated a lot of different ways here because this is all fantasy math, but for my money this is what it's about: Someone with the skills of a UFC fighter and equal stats to or slightly better stats than Tifa is going to lose to Tifa before even bringing materia, gear, and limit breaks into the equation. Tifa is the one who is prepared for this situation and in fact, regularly fights all manner of weird esoteric things that are stronger than she is. UFC fighters fight other UFC fighters. They're only winning with a considerable stat advantage.

    Edit: Just to expand on why I don't care about being too rigorous with the numbers here: I have no idea what to do with reflex speed and durability here. Those things are really complicated for real people and I don't know what's fair to assume, so I'm just going with this as a really really good UFC fighter in the same ballpark of stats as Tifa because anything else is just a question of how much different of stats she can overcome
    Last edited by BitVyper; 12-01-2023 at 10:39 AM.
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  6. #6
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Call me when Rhonda Rousey makes Godzilla tap out to her armbar or something.
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  7. #7
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Stats are pretty easy to figure. And had not trying to figure them out is basically ignoring the OP, and running a completely different fight than the thread asks for.

    Speed? Average human running sprinting speed is somewhere around 13 mph (and I’m lowballing, as UGC fighters, while not sprinters, are not ‘average’). 13x465 = ~ Mach 9.

    This blows bullet-timing out of the water, well-into the genuine super speed territory. Anyone have equivalent speed feats for Tifa? If not, she’s getting blitzed.

    …also, even Advent Children Tifa wasn’t a bullet timer.

    Strength? Assuming they’re at least strong enough to lift 100lbs (this is ridiculously lowballing), that puts stacked composite at lifting 21 tons. I think we can give them better - would be stunned if, on average, they could lift 200 lbs, which is where I got my 40+ tons from.

    Either way, this means Tifa is getting blitzed by someone who casually throws around large trucks, and she isn’t fast enough to dish out hits in return.


    And again, this is me lowballing. And I’m using running speed rather than reaction time because this is something we used to judge superspeed around here all the time. If someone can run at that speed, they must be able to react to things at that speed, otherwise they’re gonna have really hard time running through areas that aren’t perfectly flat with no changes in the ground or obstacles, or anything of the sort.

    I see people talking about materia. Which is great, and I would be the first to say that with materia Tifa still wins this. But she doesn’t get it here.

    I also see to people talking about UFC skill versus magic fantasy martial arts skill. UFC still teaches people to hit hard. And this guy is blitzing the hell out of Tifa. He doesn’t need pressure points. He doesn’t need magic Mystic martial arts. He just needs to know how to hit with his super strength while blitzing the **** out of her, hitting her dozens of times in the blink of an eye.

    What Tifa needs to win this is proof that - without materia - she can withstand the massive blitz from a guy with this level of super strength until he wears himself out, because unless she’s got speed feats equal to this, she is never touching him until he gases out.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 12-02-2023 at 07:45 PM.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  8. #8
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    I mean, theees at least some room for argument that non-advent, original Tifa can tank a lot of damage.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  9. #9
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Average running speed is 13 kph not mph everywhere that I've checked. That makes a big difference. Incidentally, the source I checked had a different number for active UFC fighters, so my number is a bit higher than it would be otherwise (mine said 590, but I didn't check closely)

    I've seen sprinting speed quoted as high as 20mph with Olympic runners, but I'd argue they definitely don't have the reflexes to back that. Even if there's hurdles involved, well those are specifically trained for and seen well in advance. People don't really react to changes in elevation the same way they react to other things; the body is just *really really* good at doing bipedalism and makes all those adjustments. Immediate and significant changes will consistently trip people up, so not really an argument for reflex speed there. Maybe you'd say that's more a question of agility than reflexes though, since a person can hit a much faster baseball, and yeah that's sort of where we start running into problems here. If we really want to composite hundreds of real people, the differences get more and more pronounced until you've got someone with reflexes and movement speed drastically beyond their agility, so they may recognize that they're about to run into a wall, but they can't do anything about it. Or maybe they can because their mass is presumably still one guy and they're way stronger, but what does that say about how they shift their centre of gravity? It's not like making estimates with a comic character who can already make 90 degree turns while running faster than light.

    And I want to point out that I'm only saying this now because I've been accused of going against the premise of the thread by ballparking when I was just trying to convey that I don't know how to make this estimate with real people because it raises a lot of messy questions.

    My saying that they're playing in the same general ballpark as Tifa is based on a lower assessment of speed. If you think they're significantly beyond where I estimated, that's fair enough, but compounding reflex speeds of hundreds of real people is, I feel, grounds for just arguing impossibilities forever because any number of totally contradictory initial assumptions are basically fair.

    Anyway, I literally gave an assumption based on my interpretation of where this would put their speed based on my best guess at stacking real human reflexes, so I was engaging with the premise of the thread just fine. All I said is that I don't know what it's fair to assume, so based on *my* assumption of the composite UFC fighter's speed, which is about half what yours is, I felt that they're close enough that I'm comfortable saying they're in the same ballpark. That's why I said I think it's about a UFC fighter who is around the same stats as Tifa. If you think the stats are actually significantly different, then it's a different story.
    Last edited by BitVyper; 12-03-2023 at 01:16 AM.
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  10. #10
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Fair enough re: going against thread premise. I see your reasoning, now. I wrote that post last night sitting in an airport, jetlagged all to hell, waiting for my luggage that did not properly follow me back from Japan while the plane it was supposed to be on kept getting delayed delayed delayed. I was not at my best, and I apologize for any crankiness.

    Here's where I get my info from, and they do a great job of breaking it down.

    https://marathonhandbook.com/average...-sprint-speed/

    I then lowballed it down to 13 mph - should have mentioned that - and there you go.

    So, I'm pretty happy with mach 9.

    But maybe you take issue with this because it doesn't measure for couch potatoes and so forth. That's perfectly fair, though I would say that athletes are going to be faster than ‘dead average’ anyway, and we ARE talking about athletes here. However, even if it's Mach 5, that's far and away faster than a bullet timer. Like, hugely. They react to bullets zipping around in straight lines at mach 1, 2, 3, they don't run around at mach 5 and they tend to get the tar beaten out of them by people who do that.

    As for 'assuming some generalized level of speed' that's how we've pretty much always done things like that in 'stacked composite' threads because there really isn't any other way of doing it without it quickly becoming overly complicated. You, yourself, have noted the difficulty of going into an indepth analysis of each and every human on the planet. Obviously this would be ridiculous, so if we're going to do a stacked composite involving such, there's going to need to be some kind of way around it, and simply multiplying it out - as we do with strength - is a decent method. At least we get something to work with, rather than just assuming equivalent speed.

    If we want to get into reaction time, again, using running speed is actually lowballing it. People hit stuff moving much faster than they run, people avoid stuff moving much faster than they run (punches move a whole lot faster than people run), people react to stuff moving a whole lot faster than they can run. People can, and do, react to stuff like sudden changes in terrain while running as well - sometimes it trips them up, but if it always did, evolution would sort of have got us running slower. And running speed, again, is lowballing it, and as such makes a great way of estimating speed without overdoing it. I mean...average human reaction time being 0.25 seconds or so, we use that instead and we end up with a reaction time in the area of 0.0005 seconds (using the idea of multiplying/dividing), and we get someone who can watch a mach 1 pistol bullet crawl along at what would be, for a normal human...

    0.6 feet per second, or roughly 7 inches every second - subjectively speaking.

    We're getting rather further into hypersonic speed right there, when a pistol bullet is crawling and very fast rifle bullets are basically leisurely wandering towards the person from their perspective. And that's using 'average human reaction speed' - a UFC fighter is going to have reflexes trained towards fighting and dealing with striking and such, and I would be stunned if their reaction time with such isn't a whole lot better than 0.25 seconds, given how we know that training towards specific tasks increases human reaction time towards those tasks.

    So, by using running we're somewhat going low, and at least by lowballing it we can say 'so I'm pretty comfortable saying they have reflexes at least in this range'.

    TL;DR: Running speed is a pretty good way of working this sort of thing out. It gives a good idea of someone's reaction speed, if low-balled (especially lowballed here because we’re using ‘average humans’ and these are athletes). It's also how we've always worked out how fast speedsters move and react, because it's mostly what we have for them. Thus, it has always been pretty much how we do things in stacked composite threads on Rumbles. Yes, we could go into deep dives on this kind of thing, but you yourself have noted that's problematic.

    So why not use it, and get a better estimation of speed than just assuming the two characters have equivalent speed without using anything?

    Either way, mach 5 or mach 9 or going higher, it's far and away faster than a standard 'reacts to bullets' bullet-timer, and Tifa - unless she has feats in her new game, I don't know, maybe she does - doesn't even have that kind of thing. She's clearly faster than humanly possible, that's evident, but there's no indication of her being a bullet-timer in Advent Children, extended version or not. Cloud? Sure, and better. And Vincent has feats easily putting him at bullet-time level from Dirge of Cerberus (much faster) and Advent Children as I recall. But Tifa (and the others)? Not that I recall.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 12-05-2023 at 02:09 AM.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

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