What if there was a Rival Bond film series?

[Catlady in training]

Maybe it's because I'm not understanding the nature of this thread, but I'm very surprised no one has mentioned Jason Bourne yet.

I was gonna ask, why are people still so fascinated with Bond? Why don't we have more series with other spy characters and fewer movies instead, like the above mentioned Bourne? That would also add diversity in a natural way, instead of those suggestions to have black Bond, or female Bond. I usually understand the appeal of long franchises, but I don't understand what people see in that sexist, arrogant character to justify more than 20 movies.

[Scott Taylor]

That whole opening sequence they did was among the best ever. Just a really fun show, even today. Robert Conrad, (Jim West), died in 2020 IIRC.

One thing that differentiates it from Bond is having Artemis Gordon there as well. Kind of like a Felix Leiter character but way more involved. Not a sidekick either. I've always felt that the better Bond movies are the ones where Bond interacts a lot with other agents in the field. That may not be more true to how actual spying happens, but its more entertaining.

[ChrisIII]

I was gonna ask, why are people still so fascinated with Bond? Why don't we have more series with other spy characters and fewer movies instead, like the above mentioned Bourne? That would also add diversity in a natural way, instead of those suggestions to have black Bond, or female Bond. I usually understand the appeal of long franchises, but I don't understand what people see in that sexist, arrogant character to justify more than 20 movies.

I'm not sure it's necessarily the spy stuff/geopolitics that's the appeal of Bond to many (especially since a number of films Bond uses gadgets more than traditional spying stuff-even the more grounded The Living Daylights uses a car with lasers/missiles/rockets although it's destroyed fairly early), more like the action, locations , music, stunts (several that were groundbreaking practical stuff like the ski jump) and admittedly, perhaps some more 'shallow' reasons (The whole male wish fulfillment angle of Bond's lifestyle).

[achilles]

I'm not sure it's necessarily the spy stuff/geopolitics that's the appeal of Bond to many (especially since a number of films Bond uses gadgets more than traditional spying stuff-even the more grounded The Living Daylights uses a car with lasers/missiles/rockets although it's destroyed fairly early), more like the action, locations , music, stunts (several that were groundbreaking practical stuff like the ski jump) and admittedly, perhaps some more 'shallow' reasons (The whole male wish fulfillment angle of Bond's lifestyle).

For me the love of the Bond movies was a love of fun. Just good, well made with appealing actors in the main parts, and incredible stunt sequences. There's nothing deep about it. Fun, that's the ticket.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Two competing Bonds might lean into the whole Bond is a codename theory.

[ChrisIII]

For me the love of the Bond movies was a love of fun. Just good, well made with appealing actors in the main parts, and incredible stunt sequences. There's nothing deep about it. Fun, that's the ticket.

That as well.

Although I kind of like the more serious takes on Bond as well (Dalton and Craig) although TLD is largely still a Moore-style Bond in many ways (Also the film was meant to be Brosnan's first, and certainly his Bonds have a sort of "Moore 2.0" feel to them) and Craig's Bond sort of lightened up a bit here and there after QUANTUM OF SOLACE went entirely in the other direction with Bond kind of moody for most of the film.

The John Rhys Davies character was actually intended to be Gogol who had been in Moore's films since SPY WHO LOVED ME but the actor's health wasn't too good so a replacement character was created and Gogol makes a more light hearted cameo at the end.

[Scott Taylor]

I was gonna ask, why are people still so fascinated with Bond? Why don't we have more series with other spy characters and fewer movies instead, like the above mentioned Bourne? That would also add diversity in a natural way, instead of those suggestions to have black Bond, or female Bond. I usually understand the appeal of long franchises, but I don't understand what people see in that sexist, arrogant character to justify more than 20 movies.

Well lets say, for a second, that we had a society where men have to all behave themselves and not be sexist and arrogant. And the men, by and large, were doing a good job towing that line. But in their hearts, they long to rule!

In a society like that, there might be a certain appeal in an unrealistic fantasy of a character who didn't have to be that way. But also people in general who enjoy a good action film set in the gray area of being a covert agent for justice.

Think of it in the same way people like awful torture horror movies like Saw. Its not because they secretly all want torture dungeons. I can only speculate about their exact appeal but I would think its the same type of deal as with Bond. Fantasy appeal.

[DrNewGod]

I was gonna ask, why are people still so fascinated with Bond? Why don't we have more series with other spy characters and fewer movies instead, like the above mentioned Bourne? That would also add diversity in a natural way, instead of those suggestions to have black Bond, or female Bond. I usually understand the appeal of long franchises, but I don't understand what people see in that sexist, arrogant character to justify more than 20 movies.

I'm not sure it's necessarily the spy stuff/geopolitics that's the appeal of Bond to many (especially since a number of films Bond uses gadgets more than traditional spying stuff-even the more grounded The Living Daylights uses a car with lasers/missiles/rockets although it's destroyed fairly early), more like the action, locations , music, stunts (several that were groundbreaking practical stuff like the ski jump) and admittedly, perhaps some more 'shallow' reasons (The whole male wish fulfillment angle of Bond's lifestyle).

Most good espionage stories aren't fun or action packed. They're filled with treachery, exploitation, coercion, and enabling self-destructive appetites (which is what developing human intelligence sources really entails). You can find a some, (Spy Game, The Tailor of Panama, No Way Out, and several on streaming). Generally, though, espionage stories don't lend themselves to long series because it's tough to make an intelligence officer a character that we could stomach watching over the long haul, and the plots tend to be slow burn.

IMO, calling Bond's genre spy adventure has always been a misnomer. Both in books and film, Bond wasn't an intelligence officer, he was an enforcer. He and his fellow Double-0s were deployed when obstacles needed removal, or British Intelligence expected an inquiry to provoke unpleasant response.

[Gaastra]

Don't forget james bond jr. Bonds nephew who the some of the owners were not happy was made.

You may never see him again.

[ChrisIII]

Bond's somewhat outdated attitudes/behavior have also, at times, been put to task or deconstructed in the films themselves, as early as the Moore era but also more obvious during the 90's.

Dench's M for example in GOLDENEYE. It was even used in the film's trailer!

Also a bit of Yeoh's character in TND, although she does fall for Bond at the end of the movie.

[ChrisIII]

Most good espionage stories aren't fun or action packed. They're filled with treachery, exploitation, coercion, and enabling self-destructive appetites (which is what developing human intelligence sources really entails). You can find a some, (Spy Game, The Tailor of Panama, No Way Out, and several on streaming). Generally, though, espionage stories don't lend themselves to long series because it's tough to make an intelligence officer a character that we could stomach watching over the long haul, and the plots tend to be slow burn.

IMO, calling Bond's genre spy adventure has always been a misnomer. Both in books and film, Bond wasn't an intelligence officer, he was an enforcer. He and his fellow Double-0s were deployed when obstacles needed removal, or British Intelligence expected an inquiry to provoke unpleasant response.

A "Blunt instrument" is one of Fleming's descriptions for him, a line that was also used by M in the Casino Royale film.

[godisawesome]

That as well.

Although I kind of like the more serious takes on Bond as well (Dalton and Craig) although TLD is largely still a Moore-style Bond in many ways (Also the film was meant to be Brosnan's first, and certainly his Bonds have a sort of "Moore 2.0" feel to them) and Craig's Bond sort of lightened up a bit here and there after QUANTUM OF SOLACE went entirely in the other direction with Bond kind of moody for most of the film.

The John Rhys Davies character was actually intended to be Gogol who had been in Moore's films since SPY WHO LOVED ME but the actor's health wasn't too good so a replacement character was created and Gogol makes a more light hearted cameo at the end.

Moore's "FOR YOUR EYES ONLY" is my favorite of his films, and comes off very much like a Dalton or Craig film that somehow got made with the guy we're supposed to consider the goofy one... and Moore actually does excellently in the film.

...I might also have a soft spot for the Bond films that have Bond Girls who are serious and dangerous action girls. I'm still shallow enough to like that they're hot, but it makes it more fun to have a deuteragonist who's fun to follow around, and... eh maybe I've just got a thing for cool women.

Bond's somewhat outdated attitudes/behavior have also, at times, been put to task or deconstructed in the films themselves, as early as the Moore era but also more obvious during the 90's.

Dench's M for example in GOLDENEYE. It was even used in the film's trailer!

Also a bit of Yeoh's character in TND, although she does fall for Bond at the end of the movie.

I think Bond's also quietly but pretty conclusively transformed across the films to be less of a dinosaur in his attitudes, even if he still remains a male fantasy archetype with some problematic aspects. Even Craig's "back to basics" Bond doesn't really have Fleming's misogyny, classism, and nationalism anymore - they sort of switched out those things for just general misanthorpy, hedonism and cynicism concealing a good judge of character and a righteous temper.

[ChrisIII]

It's kind of a bit annoying that every time there's an action Bond girl there's sort of marketing that she's "the first" when the trope pretty much goes back to even Connery. Even Honey is kind of badass when we meet her although she doesn't really get to demonstrate it on Dr.No's minions.

Tracy's pretty awesome in the second half of OHMSS, rescuing Bond and the car chase with Blofeld's henchman.Even in her "damsel in distress" mode Tracy takes down Blofeld's main heavy with broken glass and that spiked wall decoration?.

Funny thing is Anya is kind of played like this a bit but doesn't really get much to show it (She does badly against Jaws several times and spends the last half hour of the film as Stormberg's captive). Also she's written a bit inconsistently, she goes from being surprised by the Lotus's underwater ability to actually saying he knew about the blueprints for example. Think Holly, despite the goofy name, actually was written as a component agent a lot better.

[K7P5V]

Moore's "FOR YOUR EYES ONLY" is my favorite of his films, and comes off very much like a Dalton or Craig film that somehow got made with the guy we're supposed to consider the goofy one... and Moore actually does excellently in the film.

I know, right?! The theme song is still an All-Time Favorite (XD)

[ChrisIII]

Think it's a bit like CASINO ROYALE and DIE ANOTHER DAY, with EON realizing they went a bit too far last time (Although Moonraker was a big box office hit, although not a critical one) and decided to do a 'back to basics' Bond which largely uses the Fleming literature as it's main source, specifically the original story (The daughter getting revenge on Gonzalez and the people who hired him) and RISICO (The Kristatos/Columbo story) although ATAK and the KGB are added.

The Mediteranan setting does seem a bit like Colonel Sun though, although I think SPWLM has some similarities with Bond teaming with a communist agent (and also partly set in the Mediterranean), and at one point she has two of her men attack Bond at a historical site (Although in this case it's the Agropolis instead of a tomb near the Pyramids).

Like LICENSE TO KILL it also borrows a major sequence from THE LIVE AND LET DIE novel with Bond being dragged over a reef with sharks (The actual LALD movie just kind of had them tied up over sharks).

Kind of interesting with Sheena's music, this was back in her "Morning train" era before she sort of tried to adopt Madonna, Jackson and Princes's styles in the mid 80s.