Damian's Conception and Retcons Thereof

[Slimybug]

It occurred to me just now, I don't remember something. I know there was one version of Damian's conception where Bruce was drugged and raped by Talia, and another where it was consensual. I know Grant Morrison apparently forgot how it went down in Son of the Demon, and wrote his own version of it in Batman and Son. I just can't remember which was which. Furthermore, has this been retconned since then, to either alleviate the idea of Batman being raped, or to double down on it?

[James Cameron]

Bruce was never raped, that was speculation by fans because of Batman saying he was drugged. He was drugged - not date rape drugged. In all versions, Damian Wayne's conception is consensual

Grant Morrison from last year:

For those who have wondered over the years and it seems many have, the conception of Damian, son of Batman was, in my mind an entirely consensual event! We've taken pains, my artistic collaborators and I, to show that Batman is clearly a willing participant in flashbacks to the event! The running joke is that he denies it, whether to or to hide from responsibility and convince himself that his youthful passion was some result of trickery.

I will admit, however, that Talia in those stories dosed the Caped Crusader with something from her arsenal resembling some combination of MDMA and Viagra and doubtless some ingredients of her own devising. She can't help being the Devil's Daughter, after all! Nevertheless, they were genuinely crazy about one another… but it would take a lot to melt the glacier walls of experience that separates them now.

[CPSparkles]

Not sure where the rumour or idea that or wasn't consensual ever came from. Even the version where Bruce was given performance enhancers. It's clear that it's consensual. Both parties are very willing and egaer.

Was it the animated movies that made it seem non consensual?

[CPSparkles]

double post

[Chubistian]

In Batman Inc #2 (N52), Bruce wonders what Talia put in his drink (all indicates that it was some kind of aphrodisiac). But, in the original interpretation by Morrison, before the New 52, in Batman #656, Bruce doesn't recall what happened that night and he says that he was "drugged senseless".


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[witchboy]

I question if Bruce was able to give informed consent if he was drugged with MDMA. Viagra and/or aphrodisiacs are one thing, but MDMA does compromise decision making, doesn't it? I can't image this being dismissed so casually if a man had dosed a woman.

[Rac7d*]

Not sure where the rumour or idea that or wasn't consensual ever came from. Even the version where Bruce was given performance enhancers. It's clear that it's consensual. Both parties are very willing and egaer.

Was it the animated movies that made it seem non consensual?

It’s not clear and Morrison Note won’t help. That animation of Bruce saying your mother drugged me to conceive you or it made me do what you wanted implied he did not give consent and that what most are gonna take away from an initial watch. It’s pretty much immortalized now

[Frontier]

I like to think it was consensual.

[godisawesome]

I always thought it was Morrison getting sidetracked from some of the human elements of the story by their other ideas; since Morrison wanted Talia to be a purely evil villain, they wanted to not have Bruce look like he slept with her willingly, and also probably discarded the idea of any real heartache for Bruce towards her from some genuine last relationship… but that resulted in a story that was much more problematic than intended. The way to address it would probably be to tell a more emotional and human story about heartache, accusations, self-serving memories and such… but Morrison was focused on archetypes, meta-fiction, and dissertation-level subtext around different, less “human” messages.

[Frontier]

I always thought it was Morrison getting sidetracked from some of the human elements of the story by their other ideas; since Morrison wanted Talia to be a purely evil villain, they wanted to not have Bruce look like he slept with her willingly, and also probably discarded the idea of any real heartache for Bruce towards her from some genuine last relationship… but that resulted in a story that was much more problematic than intended. The way to address it would probably be to tell a more emotional and human story about heartache, accusations, self-serving memories and such… but Morrison was focused on archetypes, meta-fiction, and dissertation-level subtext around different, less “human” messages.

I think this basically sums it up.

[phonogram12]

I always thought it was Morrison getting sidetracked from some of the human elements of the story by their other ideas; since Morrison wanted Talia to be a purely evil villain, they wanted to not have Bruce look like he slept with her willingly, and also probably discarded the idea of any real heartache for Bruce towards her from some genuine last relationship… but that resulted in a story that was much more problematic than intended. The way to address it would probably be to tell a more emotional and human story about heartache, accusations, self-serving memories and such… but Morrison was focused on archetypes, meta-fiction, and dissertation-level subtext around different, less “human” messages.

And this is pretty much why I didn't care for most of his run. With books like this and his X-Men run, his stories tend to be more about him and the ideas he's interested in than the actual characters he's writing about.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce was never raped, that was speculation by fans because of Batman saying he was drugged. He was drugged - not date rape drugged. In all versions, Damian Wayne's conception is consensual

Grant Morrison from last year:

This is fairly consistent with Morrison's view of Batman as a man-child in their assessment of him and his view of relationships with women in their Arkham Asylum script. After Batman Inc #2, I've always taken it as they say: it was consensual, Bruce is just being immature, and Talia may be a psychotic villain but she's not that skeevy.

[godisawesome]

And this is pretty much why I didn't care for most of his run. With books like this and his X-Men run, his stories tend to be more about him and the ideas he's interested in than the actual characters he's writing about.

This is fairly consistent with Morrison's view of Batman as a man-child in their assessment of him and his view of relationships with women in their Arkham Asylum script. After Batman Inc #2, I've always taken it as they say: it was consensual, Bruce is just being immature, and Talia may be a psychotic villain but she's not that skeevy.

I think the appeal of Morrison's "high concept, strong themes" style woks best in printed media, but I think it's a bad idea for animation, movies, etc., because those types of art lend themselves to more three dimensional characters and more "human" characterization, rather than making the protagonist and supporting cast largely archetypes and constraining them to those archetypes - partially because actors can add their own layer of drama and subtext with their own passion and psychology, which more archetypal writing can't really handle. So I think fans who "play" the comic like a movie in their heads were less appealed to than fans who "read" the comic like a book/painting.

Now normally, I think Morrison also throws so much other imaginative stuff at the board that it doesn't really matter that much whether the characters are working - there's so much other imaginative elements that even if you don't like Batman being a man-child, Joker being a meta-fictional chameleon, Jezebel Jet being a commentary on femme fatales, etc., there's still a good chance you're going to go "Ninja Man-Bats! Cool!"

... But I think that movies and cartoons should look to avoid Morrison's conceptual choices here. James Gunn, for instance, would do a lot better to make Batman and Talia's relationship be one of heartbreak and recrimination caused by Talia and Bruce having been close enough in moral alignment in their early lives to actually fall for each other, and *then* Talia sinks into psychotic villainy. It'd be lame to just go with Man Child and Evil Woman going through a Divorce On Steroids on the big screen - because you can still convey that idea, but give it great psychological depth and dimension with some humanity and drama that might, to some people, come off as removing the archetypes.

It's sort of like how I only really want Damian on the big screen if he's handled the way Bryan Q. Millar did; he's still an over-the-top and escapist character, but there's an element of humor and tragedy to how being so high concept has deprived him of a regular childhood development, and there's some crow and humility he can eat in a very human way before going back to being over-the-top.

And give him a British accent damnit! He's lame when he sounds like an American!

[sunofdarkchild]

What was done to Talia is by far the worst thing Morrison ever did in the Batman books. But then, Morrison loves taking nuanced villains and removing all nuance and sympathy from them. Marvel ultimately had to retcon Morrison's Magneto into being a completely different character just to be able to use the character again, not because Magneto died, but because of how absurdly and out of characterably evil Magneto was pushed into being for seemingly no reason. Morrison did the same thing to Talia, but since she's not as popular as Magneto DC left her as a ruined character. There was an extremely easy out - Talia had been driven insane by being killed and resurrected over and over again by Nyssa using the Lazarus Pit, which was the original reason she returned to villainy in the 2000s before Morrison's character assassination. Even if they wanted to keep her as a villain, just acknowledging that fact would explain how Batman could have loved her before she became what Morrison turned her into instead of treating her as completely evil for her entire life.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the appeal of Morrison's "high concept, strong themes" style woks best in printed media, but I think it's a bad idea for animation, movies, etc., because those types of art lend themselves to more three dimensional characters and more "human" characterization, rather than making the protagonist and supporting cast largely archetypes and constraining them to those archetypes - partially because actors can add their own layer of drama and subtext with their own passion and psychology, which more archetypal writing can't really handle. So I think fans who "play" the comic like a movie in their heads were less appealed to than fans who "read" the comic like a book/painting.

I actually thought there was nuance and humanity in the comics as Morrison wrote them, even if they were also heightened into larger than life archetypes. It's not mutually exclusive, and let's face it: Batman is inherently a bit ridiculous and larger than life.

It wouldn't translate to live action, but the superhero genre in general loses a lot of what makes it great in print when it goes to be adapted.

What was done to Talia is by far the worst thing Morrison ever did in the Batman books. But then, Morrison loves taking nuanced villains and removing all nuance and sympathy from them. Marvel ultimately had to retcon Morrison's Magneto into being a completely different character just to be able to use the character again, not because Magneto died, but because of how absurdly and out of characterably evil Magneto was pushed into being for seemingly no reason. Morrison did the same thing to Talia, but since she's not as popular as Magneto DC left her as a ruined character. There was an extremely easy out - Talia had been driven insane by being killed and resurrected over and over again by Nyssa using the Lazarus Pit, which was the original reason she returned to villainy in the 2000s before Morrison's character assassination. Even if they wanted to keep her as a villain, just acknowledging that fact would explain how Batman could have loved her before she became what Morrison turned her into instead of treating her as completely evil for her entire life.

That was stupid on Marvel's part. Clearly they panicked and didn't pay attention to the actual story, because Morrison already provided them an out: it wasn't really Magneto, it was Sublime controlling him. This is outright stated in "Here Comes Tomorrow."

As for Talia, she's always been at least passively on board with her dad's "wiping out most of humanity" schemes, so she was already not that great of a person. I prefer her having agency in her life, even if it's for evil, than being a victim of Nyssa. I also don't think Morrison depicted her as inherently evil, just a tragic figure who is the natural outcome of a kid being raised by friggin' Ra's al Ghul. Then again, I've always found the Al Ghul stuff a weird outlier in the Bat-mythos and Bruce's back and forth "Beloved" crap with Talia extremely boring, so her going full supervillain who surpassed her dad has always been an improvement for me.