Damian's Conception and Retcons Thereof

[godisawesome]

I actually thought there was nuance and humanity in the comics as Morrison wrote them, even if they were also heightened into larger than life archetypes. It's not mutually exclusive, and let's face it: Batman is inherently a bit ridiculous and larger than life.

It wouldn't translate to live action, but the superhero genre in general loses a lot of what makes it great in print when it goes to be adapted.



That was stupid on Marvel's part. Clearly they panicked and didn't pay attention to the actual story, because Morrison already provided them an out: it wasn't really Magneto, it was Sublime controlling him. This is outright stated in "Here Comes Tomorrow."

As for Talia, she's always been at least passively on board with her dad's "wiping out most of humanity" schemes, so she was already not that great of a person. I prefer her having agency in her life, even if it's for evil, than being a victim of Nyssa. I also don't think Morrison depicted her as inherently evil, just a tragic figure who is the natural outcome of a kid being raised by friggin' Ra's al Ghul. Then again, I've always found the Al Ghul stuff a weird outlier in the Bat-mythos and Bruce's back and forth "Beloved" crap with Talia extremely boring, so her going full supervillain who surpassed her dad has always been an improvement for me.

Morrison's writing style tends to be a bit more divisive than their plotting; while it generally works, I think that there's a lot of writers who are more natural hands at getting character voices yet, and that archetypal writing is generally overrated because of how it can be subsumed by more "authentic" character writing.

Personally, I think Batman either *gains* something from more grounded, "less ridiculous" portrayals, or (much more likely) *switches out* some of his "greatness" for a different type of "greatness."

I always thought that the Paul Dini stuff (stronger character work, better mysteries, tighter pacing) going on at the same time as Morrison's run stronger imagination, greater lore expansion) was clearly superior is several ways, for instance, even though I felt that Morrison's story was likewise superior in others - and that Scott Snyder (greater use of tension and horror) would also follow suit, and sort of be an example of a middle ground that wasn't actually a synthesis, but a third option. And generally... Batman and his franchise are one of the few properties that seems to just generally enjoy both fantastic and faux-realistic mish-mashes without the audience feeling like they have to take a side (at least in the comics; the larger media empire still seems pretty cold on combining those aspects.)

Which is where I think the Al Ghul stuff and Damian's conception kind of stands out as being an area where there *is* a sore spot.

I agree with you that the Al Ghuls have kind of been a weird outlier, since I think Ra's and Talia's general premise is still stuck pretty firmly in the Bronze Age - definitely more evolved than the Silver Age, but still myopic, short sighted, and still a little raw. Ra's is a great, high concept villain, and the idea of Talia having a thing with Batman is also a good one... but as you pointed out, it's not developed enough to really make the "beloved" thing work, and Ra's old obsession with trying to recruit Bruce likewise sort of got old. Probably his best appearance since the 80's was in the Tower of Babel storyline because of how well the "steal Batman's plans" idea worked, and he's still seen as replaceable by a surprising number of people who want to adapt that story. I think part of the reason Legacy didn't have much impact was because it illustrated how his main "complexities" (and Talia's) had faded as comics evolved past him.

...But I think he also benefitted significantly from the Batman Begins idea hitting on hw to update his relationship to Bruce correctly - making him Bruce's mentor actually made the old argument over being an heir and having a faux-paternal relationship ring true. I still think that's probably what should be done with future versions of Ra's as well.

In contrast, Morrison sort of moved the opposite way, making the idea of Bruce having heartache over Talia seem laughable as she became more of a Generic Doomsday Villain - executed well, mind you, but still generic. At the same time, though, I would agree that the "Nyssa brainwashed her back to evil" idea sucked as well. The earlier attempt to update her in the 00s pre-Nyssa feels like a smarter take on her in general - emphasizing her agency by just making her quit the game between her father and Bruce, who you could believably see Bruce having a relationship with.

And I think part of the reason Morrison's take remains surprisingly divisive considering how successful the story was is because it feels like there should be some very "mundane" but tense drama over Bruce and her having a kid while becoming mortal enemies - and the "nuance" of Morrison's take is inherently limited.

Talia as "Ra's With ****" just isn't that compelling in the long run.

[witchboy]

I actually thought there was nuance and humanity in the comics as Morrison wrote them, even if they were also heightened into larger than life archetypes. It's not mutually exclusive, and let's face it: Batman is inherently a bit ridiculous and larger than life.

It wouldn't translate to live action, but the superhero genre in general loses a lot of what makes it great in print when it goes to be adapted.



That was stupid on Marvel's part. Clearly they panicked and didn't pay attention to the actual story, because Morrison already provided them an out: it wasn't really Magneto, it was Sublime controlling him. This is outright stated in "Here Comes Tomorrow."

As for Talia, she's always been at least passively on board with her dad's "wiping out most of humanity" schemes, so she was already not that great of a person. I prefer her having agency in her life, even if it's for evil, than being a victim of Nyssa. I also don't think Morrison depicted her as inherently evil, just a tragic figure who is the natural outcome of a kid being raised by friggin' Ra's al Ghul. Then again, I've always found the Al Ghul stuff a weird outlier in the Bat-mythos and Bruce's back and forth "Beloved" crap with Talia extremely boring, so her going full supervillain who surpassed her dad has always been an improvement for me.

Yes. I've always been confused by people who act like Talia is a good person, as you say, she's usually on board with Ra's plans.

[Agent Z]

Before Death and The Maidens, Talia had divorced herself entirely from Ra's and the League.

[godisawesome]

Yes. I've always been confused by people who act like Talia is a good person, as you say, she's usually on board with Ra's plans.

Before Death and The Maidens, Talia had divorced herself entirely from Ra's and the League.

Which is where things kind of get weird/annoying with Talia - her initial version was seemingly only attractive to Bruce on the premise of “is hot, and is formidable when the story wants her to be”… but:

- In both the late Bronze Age and in the 00s, there were also dedicated attempts to actually make her more complex and morally defensible, making her an ally against Ra’s in the former and an ally against Lex in the latter. The latter attempt maybe saw the most psychologically complex and engaging version of Talia, who you could believably see Bruce falling in love with, and definitely had as much agency as her future villain version. This is the Talia who would be most plausible as the one Bruce had Damian with… but, of course she’s not evil anymore.

- In between and after those attempts, of course, she was regressed back to being Ra’s Al Ghul’s Hot Daughter Who’s Not Supposed To Be. A Villain But Still Mostly Is, initially just sort of relying on the fuzzy nature of the new Post-Crisis Timeline, and the second on the tedious “brainwashed back into villainy so editorial can feel safe and secure knowing that change isn’t happening” method that had been used on Catwoman at the end of the Bronze Age/start of Post Crisis as well. This Talia makes the most sense as a villain… but lacks agency and is, to put it bluntly, boring as a character.

- Morrison then creates a Talia which ignores both the attempted redemption story with it’s more complex psychology and charm, but also the whole “brainwashed into evil without agency” thing, going for a Generic Evil Doer portrayal that has agency, but remains simplistic - ‘cause it’s Generic Evil Doer stuff. It’s a very effective antagonist, since Morrison knows how to make spectacle, but not an interesting character - and so the story mostly lacks any real human drama worthy of the premise of “your beloved turned evil” - though the story does manage to get “your mom is evil” done competently with Damian, in contrast.

And I think that’s the thing - the lack of “someone you were close to has become your enemy” drama with Morrison’s Talia for Batman, and how she’s not really an interesting character but an interesting concept - she feels like she belongs more in a parody than a drama, though I won’t pretend she doesn’t work for some people.

But I think it’s clear that Morrison’s Talia can’t combine the drama of being Bruce’s enemy with being the person who helped him get out of his funk and back in the game for No Man’s Land, or of being someone he loved once without it being “Man Child Found Hot Girl Hot! No Emotional Investment!”

To be honest, I think that’s part of the reason why that DCNAU movie universe kid of underwhelmed with its version of Talia - she’s a 100% accurate adaptation of Morrison’s Talia, and when required to have more “life” outside a comic page, pretty boring.

[Agent Z]

The Al Ghuls already a streak of Orientalism but it got dialed up in later years, with Morrison being one of the worst examples. They are characters that either should be dropped or heavily reworked.

Then again, Batman's entire rogues gallery is a massive pile of outdated tropes.

[Restingvoice]

It occurred to me just now, I don't remember something. I know there was one version of Damian's conception where Bruce was drugged and raped by Talia, and another where it was consensual. I know Grant Morrison apparently forgot how it went down in Son of the Demon, and wrote his own version of it in Batman and Son. I just can't remember which was which. Furthermore, has this been retconned since then, to either alleviate the idea of Batman being raped, or to double down on it?

Ibn - Son of The Demon - Married - Consensual

Damian

Batman and Son - drugged - eugenic experiment

New 52 - Batman Incorporated - in love - consensual - Talia revealed she will have a son from the union - I think this is the one mentioned in the interview that she's using MDMA + Viagra + her own ingredients

Currently I don't know if the drug is still used but the relationship and sex is consensual

[witchboy]

Ibn - Son of The Demon - Married - Consensual

Damian

Batman and Son - drugged - eugenic experiment

New 52 - Batman Incorporated - in love - consensual - Talia revealed she will have a son from the union - I think this is the one mentioned in the interview that she's using MDMA + Viagra + her own ingredients

Currently I don't know if the drug is still used but the relationship and sex is consensual

Doesn't her dosing him with MDMA make him unable to give informed consent?