The Force Awakens is better than you remember

[godisawesome]

Figured I might as well try a more positive (if still "TLJ sucks" adjacent ) thread for once, that's still debatable, I know, but that I think is more debatable than not.

The Force Awakens has sort of aged into a reputation for being a "hack remake of A New Hope by JJ Abrams" with nothing original, and a mediocre or sub-par Star Wars movie, often seen as being overshadowed by TLJ in discussions for and against the ST.

I'm going to argue that is the result of sort "retroactive history" that makes people forget or overlook where TFA stood as a popular film upon release and for about two years after, and that part of the reason for the viciousness in the debate about TLJ is that a large TFA fanbase felt "betrayed" by it, and they've just sort of been overlooked. So while I won't pretend

1. Great Character Arcs... Even Compared To The Best In Star Wars. I'm calling it: TFA has the best collection character arcs and interactions in the actually somewhat illustrious history of Star Wars regarding its ensemble casts - and with more originality than people remember. Finn's story is a top-tier, highly ambitious and original one for the genre, that goes further in a shorter amount of time than anyone else in Star Wars - they beat him when they get multiple films, but not in a one-on-one feature. Rey, meanwhile, has "I'm the main character" story that's actually about equal to Luke's in ANH, with plenty of flaws to her; her "abandonment issues" and denial form a solid psychological profile, and she gets actualized well at the end of the story. Kylo makes a strong case for just "flipping the script" on a classic villain, being a young, insane fanatic with self-destructive tendencies compared to Vader's sane, veteran pragmatist. Han, meanwhile, actually makes the most interesting (if still formulaic) version of The Mentor because of the sheer dramatic irony of the former Space Atheist being the one professing miracles and faith.

But arguably their real greatness is in how those arcs all interact and come together at the climax, coming to a greater harmony than other Star Wars films. Kylo plunges into a self-destructive but murderous spiral after he proves he's more ruthless but also unstable than Vader was, Han successfully passes the torch to Rey and Finn in fighting for the big picture, before solidifying Kylo's turn to the dark as his victim. Finn completes his transformation from faceless and nameless henchman frozen stiff by Kylo to screaming defiance and charging Kylo as he's already effectively saved the Galaxy as the most important figure in Starkiller Base's destruction - and still contributes mightily to Kylo's defeat. Rey, meanwhile, realizes her role to play in the coming events, overcomes her abandonment issues with a cathartic "found family" moment... only to have Kylo come along with their terrible cost for her new heroism, takes up the lightsaber, and stands against him, pulling off a hard fought victory.

2. Solid Cinematic Construction. This film has John Williams's best music for the ST; you can tell he actually had genuine enthusiasm for the film, unlike the others, where it feels a bit more strained. The film is also surprisingly excellent at "showing, not telling," from operatic, almost over-the-top moments (the light going out before Kylo kills Han) to simple, subtle, and significant (Finn looking back at the Hosnian System's destruction and realizing he must help.) You've also got, oddly enough, maybe the most patient of the ST films (Rey's introduction). The military plotline, while highly derivative, also comes off as a fairly effective plot for the film, with surprisingly intense but dead serious character actors and decent tension - closer to Andor in terms of portrayal of militray character than the rest of the ST.

A lot of this, and the character arcs, make a lot more sense when you remember this is a Lawrence Kasdan script, not just Abrams doing whatever he feels like. In some ways, that's probably why it's one of Abrams's best: he's genuinely competent at visual storytelling and great at cast management, but bad at narrative stuff... which Kasdan excels at.

3. Yes, the Mystery Boxes Caused Problems... But Were (mostly) Side Shows. The Mystery Boxes are infamous for what they failed to cover (how TFA connected to ROTJ) and for having either obviously good but too predictable answers, or just other, very bad options... but the fact of the matter is that the central character arcs, cast chemistry, and conflict of the film is actually pretty clear, and could easily be built on in the next film. Rey is still actualized and presented with an excellent premise of being trained by a sorrowful Luke, Finn has become a Big Deal character with a lot of potential still baked in (especially regarding other stormtroopers like he used to be), Kylo has proven himself exceedingly dangerous but unstable, and is, like Rey, promised training for the next movie.

And NONE of that is beholden to the Mystery Boxes.

How Rey integrates into the Skywalker Saga is in a Mystery Box; why Kylo's heroic family background has no impact on how he's evil is in a Mystery Box. Luke is in a Mystery Box.

But why you should engage with Rey and Finn vs Kylo is not - and that's the main thrust of TFA and(in theory) of a competent ST.

which brings us to this...

4. TLJ Retconned A LOT - And LFL Followed Through Afterwards. Regardless of whether someone likes or hates TLJ... the fact of the matter is that it demands an interpretation of TFA that is both extremely unkind, basic, and shallow, but also subject to extreme modification and retroactive changes in lore and characterization. Whether you liked TLJ or not, TLJ wanted you to have less regard and find less substance in TFA, and set about telling that story.

It retcons about everyone's characters, the type of military's struggle going on, and does much of it so that the story is reorganized; Finn's growth form about midway through TFA is denied so he can be shuffled to the background, and Rey likewise so that she can be unmotivated and need someone, even Kylo, to tell her what her "place in all this" is... which is apparently helping Kylo with his story, while Kylo acts largely the same but is presented as though he's the main focus of the films, Hux and Poe are rebooted, etc. Largely, this is done to make the main story of the ST (from TLJ's POV) be an epilogue for Luke and the tale of Kylo as a tragic protagonist... which is why all three of the TFA main characters (Rey, Finn, and Kylo) are overhauled.

Ignore TLJ, and TFA has a great deal of substance for a film that is still trying to play it safe. "Cooperate" with TLJ, and it requires lowering your interpretations (or flat out accepting retcons) of TFA. And LFL, as shown with other expanded universe stuff, would really rather you cooperate.

I may not be able to convince anyone its a "good" movie... but its better than its reputation suggests.

[Frontier]

It was a solid start even if it maybe went back to basics a little toooo much and kind of foreshadowed the deeper problems with this trilogy.

[Kirby101]

It was mostly good, definitely the best of the trilogy. TLJ had good parts, mostly with Mark Hamel, but ruined Finn as a character and took the story in directions it shouldn't have. ROS was just trash.

[godisawesome]

It was a solid start even if it maybe went back to basics a little toooo much and kind of foreshadowed the deeper problems with this trilogy.

I will always agree that it exposed too many vulnerabilities in the long run regarding how the ST would fit into the larger story; the Skywalkers weren't doomed to a depressing ending, Luke wasn't doomed to a disappointing epilogue, the Galaxy wasn't doomed to a bland parody of the OT's war, Snoke wasn't doomed to be an also-ran non-entity, Kylo wasn't doomed to being a boring, shallow character fueled only by white dude privilege, Rey wasn't doomed to being overshadowed by Kylo because of his family bloodline... but all of that was still very much on the table, and "exposed" to the whims, apathy, and myopia of the next creator.

That's the problem with TFA's mystery boxes - they were all located at important foundational elements of the larger story, and while many to even all of them *could* have good answers, the over-reliance and glee in using them as "marketing ads" backfired - both because it meant that if the next creator ignored them, they would destroy major parts of the story, and because it meant some creators would feel pressured to go with "surprising" answers because of the mystery box nature, instead of going with the easy one, because it would be "too predictable."

Like, for as much crap as "Benedict Cumberbatch is playing Khan!" gets as a mystery box for Star Trek Into Darkness, and make no mistake, that film has a lot of problems, and the marketing campaign based off a telegraphed mystery was a bad idea when just being blunt would have worked better... that was a question posed with an *answer* deployed in the same film, so the film managed to at least have a clear "skeleton" for itself and where it took all the characters. TFA didn't give the ST that, and the next film promptly killed much of the story.

...But at the same time, there was still quite a lot of "meat" in TFA that TLJ did not get "invited" to cut away and deny. Pretty much ALL the new characters had sufficient and at times even excellent combinations of characterization and casting, and had strong arcs that could still be fulfilling without being connected to the mystery boxes... and generally, TLJ either missed that or regarded that as a problem to be "fixed."

Like, I'd still argue that LFL and Rian Johnson probably thought Finn was "too much" in TFA; too good, too distracting, too important, whatever phrase you want to use, he was further down the character arc line and closer to Rey than they wanted him to be, because they wanted Kylo in his spot. Boyega + a decently ambitious arc + a well-rounded and charismatic character? Way to much chance that overshadows Kylo, and the way Finn (like TFA!Rey) highlights Kylo's flaws, inadequacies, and "lack of rizz" (my students keep using that word) was probably unacceptable.

Similarly, I think Johnson and LFL either consciously or subconsciously refused to see how functional Rey was as a main protagonist in TFA, again possibly because doing so would lead to Kylo looking like a functional villain, but not the lead. She was "the Skywalker" of TFa in a successful way, with a lot of positive memes pouring out after the film... but the way Pablo Hidalgo would bluntly say the Skywlaker was Kylo years later sort of shows LFL's priorities were elsewhere.

[kingaliencracker]

I viewed TFA as essentially Abrams' love letter to ANH. It was certainly entertaining and exciting, but I don't think it really did anything substantial with the franchise. But it was inoffensive.

I loved TLJ because it was a very different Star Wars movie. I liked that they subverted fans' expectations of Luke and tried to make Rey important on her own.

As someone else said, TRoS was awful. It took every fan complaint against TLJ and basically said "okay, you win".

[sunofdarkchild]

I find it to be much worse now than I remember it being back in 2015. When I saw it, I was loving it for the first two-thirds and hated the final third. Once the initial sheen of 'new Star Wars for first time in 10 years wore off, it became for me by far the most forgettable movie in the Star Wars saga, with no scenes I ever have any desire to rewatch, which hasn't happened with any other Star War movie before or since. I don't hate it, but I've grown ever more indifferent to it. Rise of Skywalker is far, far worse and the only Star Wars movie I consider truly bad.

[Jokerz79]

I like TFA outside of the original trilogy and Rogue One I'd say it's the best SW Movie.

[godisawesome]

I viewed TFA as essentially Abrams' love letter to ANH. It was certainly entertaining and exciting, but I don't think it really did anything substantial with the franchise. But it was inoffensive.

I loved TLJ because it was a very different Star Wars movie. I liked that they subverted fans' expectations of Luke and tried to make Rey important on her own.

As someone else said, TRoS was awful. It took every fan complaint against TLJ and basically said "okay, you win".

Funny thing: TROS was no more fueled by fan complaints than TLJ was. Both films started their production and had their script written well before the prior film released.

So The Rise of Skywalker was simply showing Lucasfilm throwing a bitch-fit about Kylo being set-up as the main villain and Abrams being deeply concerned over the rest of the cast being screwed up in the same way The Last Jedi showed Rian Johnson and LFL being pissed off about Finn being the male lead, Rey hating Kylo and being a hero independent of Kylo's affection for her, and all the little bitch-fits it threw about charismatic actors like Oscar Isaac playing characters who were more likable than Kylo - or indeed, how pissed off they were at Kylo being a villain at all.

Fan complaints had nothing to do with either film taking a butcher's knife to its predecessor... and since LFL still loved some of the worst parts of TLJ, it's why TFA fans still hate TROS too.

And you've stated the surface level argument for TLJ being original and substantial... but that award actually goes to TFA if you examine the films beyond surface level conceptual ideas. TLJ is all bark and no bite, while TFA at least has some bite. It's not wrong for you to enjoy it personally... but it doesn't change that TLJ was an inherently more shallow film and less popular because of it.

Because TFA fans had better characters and more substance. You say TLJ had more substance, but your praise for it (and much of the praise for TLJ online) is mostly just focusing on conceptual ideas TLJ is flirting with.... before becoming exactly as much of a love letter to the OT as TFA was - but with a (somehow) much more shallow, privileged, and nihlistic POV that's founded on the idea that since this is a fictional movie, we can ignore the stakes and substance and just treat white dude characters as relatable metaphors and the rest of the cast as inconveniences the film is obligated to give time to.

There's not a damn thing original in TLJ, in fact, except for being cynical and facile, while TFA at least has Finn, and far more original ideas for Rey and Kylo.

Rey is more important on her own on TFA, and is less important in TLJ because TLJ is only saying she could be more important on her own... and then pimping her out to Kylo, hollowing out any human characterization she had that would get in the way of that, making her just an audience member for Luke's mid-life crisis, and then, right after it says she's related to no one important... telling her to get the **** out because now its time for Luke and Kylo to take center stage since their conflict was what the Jedi story was about instead of anythign to do with her, and their history "naturally" eclipses her story.

TLJ suggests "Hey, you don't need to be a Skywalker to be the main character of a Star Wars story!" but then actually goes "...but you do need to be a Skywalker to matter to this movie, so we're just going to make Rey a plot device for their story."

In contrast, TFA Rey has a mystery box that teases she could be related to someone big in the Saga... but like every other character arc in TFA, hers actually stands alone and works well by itself, with a greater depth, psychology and agency for her than anythign in TLJ (even TLJ's high point, the still controversial Luke story). Her background matters to her and the film's conflicts, her relationships and flaws matter, and her arc defines the final act of the film, unlike in TLJ.

TFA may be inoffensive, but it's also just inherently deeper art than TLJ - which is often why TLJ critics *do* find the film offensive in comparison.

[Ascended]

I agree with the OP, TFA was a really solid movie. What came after made a dog's dinner of it all but Abrams started things off well.

It was too heavy on the nostalgia, and I wasn't a fan of just recycling the 'Empire-Rebels' stuff. But after the prequels a little bit of nostalgia didn't seem the worst thing.

[godisawesome]

I agree with the OP, TFA was a really solid movie. What came after made a dog's dinner of it all but Abrams started things off well.

It was too heavy on the nostalgia, and I wasn't a fan of just recycling the 'Empire-Rebels' stuff. But after the prequels a little bit of nostalgia didn't seem the worst thing.

"Nostalgia" as a storytelling tool is tricky; do it right, and you can add resonance and grow new things out of it, do it wrong and it can be vacuous and time-wasting.

For instance, I would argue the Han stuff in TFA was VERY good use of nostalgia, especially since it was used to illutsrate an irony in how Han grew in the OT into the antithesis of his ANH characterization - going from "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid," to "I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. All of it." And going from being the knavish, posturing sidekick to the wise mentor figure clocking Finn's own deception yet strength of character and Rey's emotional needs.

Hell, I'd still argue there's a bit of magic that LFL wanted to ignore when Boyega and Ford are teamed up in the film's third act and Ford is clearly doing a great job passing the torch to a worthy successor in Boyega as the loveable, funny, but surprisingly effective deuteragonist of the Trilogy.

In contrast, though, you've got Trench Run 3.0 in the climax, which I dislike and think kills the momentum of an otherwise stellar climax. The struggle to open the hole to blow up SKB is actually pretty good, but nothing was gained from seeing Poe do exactly what Luke and Lando had done before to blow it up. We know its going to work, and frankly the fight with Kylo is much more engrossing and original, uniting three character arcs into a single climax at the same time... so pulling away to see Poe do his thing takes some of the momentum out of the scene. It honestly might have worked better to just have the planet-side characters *see* X-wings dive through the hole, but stay on their fight, and end it with the X-wings emerging afterwards.

[DrNewGod]

This is not a Rey bash, but Abrams rushed things in elevating the hero. I'll grant you that TFA didn't have the luxury of the force being a complete unknown to the audience, and therefore something Rey could grow into over several films the way the OT did with Luke. We wanted our fully fleshed Jedi now!

Still, and this is problem I perceive in Abrams generally, the film seemed in such a hurry to get to its cool shots, it sacrificed pacing that helped us like the character. I said it at the film's release, and I still see it this way: Abrams is not good with story, he's good at picking out compelling ideas and visuals and dialing them up to eleven.

[godisawesome]

This is not a Rey bash, but Abrams rushed things in elevating the hero. I'll grant you that TFA didn't have the luxury of the force being a complete unknown to the audience, and therefore something Rey could grow into over several films the way the OT did with Luke. We wanted our fully fleshed Jedi now!

Still, and this is problem I perceive in Abrams generally, the film seemed in such a hurry to get to its cool shots, it sacrificed pacing that helped us like the character. I said it at the film's release, and I still see it this way: Abrams is not good with story, he's good at picking out compelling ideas and visuals and dialing them up to eleven.

I tend to argue that criticism is both accurate, but also overstated, and often a victim of TLJ greatly aggravating stuff. It’s also really more a collaboration between Abrams and Kasdan (with the latter being a big reason for TFA being better than some of Abrams’s other work.)

Rey *does* seem to learn the Mind Trick and Force Pull too early… but she shows struggle with the first, and Kylo could have started the second for her. I’d argue she’s clearly put in a place where she can’t be the child of nobodies, but where she could still pretty plausibly just be a Skywalker - which is probably a problem shared by TFA forcing that to be the best answer to its stupid mystery box, and then TLJ stubbornly hating that for being “too predictable” and not focused enough on Kylo,

And she really, really doesn’t just beat Kylo from out of nowhere - and in fact, she doesn’t beat him, but she, Finn, and Chewie do, while Kylo is holding back against her and having a mental breakdown and bleeding out. In fact, he curbstomps her again at the opening of the fight, and she needs him drained of energy from getting gunshot and toying with Finn, holding back against her still, and being crazy to pull out a win only after her and Finn’s wounds on his shoulders take their toll.

…It’s just that then TLJ comes in and reinforces the “too quick” aspect while ignoring everything else, and ramping it up as well.

[Jokerz79]

I tend to argue that criticism is both accurate, but also overstated, and often a victim of TLJ greatly aggravating stuff. It’s also really more a collaboration between Abrams and Kasdan (with the latter being a big reason for TFA being better than some of Abrams’s other work.)

Rey *does* seem to learn the Mind Trick and Force Pull too early… but she shows struggle with the first, and Kylo could have started the second for her. I’d argue she’s clearly put in a place where she can’t be the child of nobodies, but where she could still pretty plausibly just be a Skywalker - which is probably a problem shared by TFA forcing that to be the best answer to its stupid mystery box, and then TLJ stubbornly hating that for being “too predictable” and not focused enough on Kylo,

And she really, really doesn’t just beat Kylo from out of nowhere - and in fact, she doesn’t beat him, but she, Finn, and Chewie do, while Kylo is holding back against her and having a mental breakdown and bleeding out. In fact, he curbstomps her again at the opening of the fight, and she needs him drained of energy from getting gunshot and toying with Finn, holding back against her still, and being crazy to pull out a win only after her and Finn’s wounds on his shoulders take their toll.

…It’s just that then TLJ comes in and reinforces the “too quick” aspect while ignoring everything else, and ramping it up as well.

I agree with everything you've said, but I'd like to add one thing. Narratively she's not the Luke counterpart Finn is. Luke in ANH mentioned to Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru meaning he was willing to join the Empire just to get away from home. Finn wants to escape his past anyway he can and is the wide-eyed kid who goes on his own hero's journey of a man looking for a way out to being a hero at the end. Rey's counterpart is Obi-Wan lives alone out in the desert, does a lot of the saving, and wants to return the droid to the resistance.

[Ascended]

This is not a Rey bash, but Abrams rushed things in elevating the hero. I'll grant you that TFA didn't have the luxury of the force being a complete unknown to the audience, and therefore something Rey could grow into over several films the way the OT did with Luke. We wanted our fully fleshed Jedi now!

Honestly, given what we know now, even Luke's journey as a Jedi was super rushed. Reckless, even. Luke's training flows across three films a lot better than Rey's one film, but still; when Luke defeated Vader he probably knew less about the Force than a eight year old youngling would have, back in the temple days. And he calls himself Jedi. I totally get why Baylon Skoll calls Luke and others trained like him "Bokken."

I agree that Rey learns so quickly it actually messes up the pacing. I get why they did it and I can't argue, but this stuck out to me even on the first watch. It doesn't bother me, her being so naturally talented, but it does make certain aspects of the movie feel unpleasantly rushed.

"Nostalgia" as a storytelling tool is tricky; do it right, and you can add resonance and grow new things out of it, do it wrong and it can be vacuous and time-wasting.

Oh totally agree. I'm actually not much on nostalgia. I'd rather read/watch something new than the same story told a slightly different way for the hundredth time. But nostalgia does have its place, and I think TFA was wise to lean into it. I think at that moment in time, audiences needed some reassurance that the sequels would be more familiar and 'on brand' than the prequels were when they dropped. I agree about doing it wrong, like with 'trench run 3.0' but when any storyteller decides to tap the nostalgia well, I expect that sorta crap to filter in along with the good bits. And I'm sure there're people who'd say 'trench run 3.0' was part of the good stuff, so..../shrug.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

TFA was Spencer's run on Spider-Man. Not a masterpiece like the IP's OG content, and it put a little too much emphasis on nostalgia, but it worked as a "Back to Basics" story after what came before (in Spider-Man's case it was BND/Slott, in Star Wats' case it was the Prequel Trilogy).

The only fundamental difference is that what came after Spencer didn't retroactively ruin his run the way everything after TFA ruins TFA. That's because Spencer (unlike Abrams) had a clear vision of how he wanted his mysteries to unwind. But it's also because the nature of monthly storytelling allows the earlier parts of a run to stand on its own. So Spencer's "Back to Basics" approach with Spider-Man - at least in the first half of his run - still holds up and wasn't "ruined" by what Wells is doing the way TLJ ruined TFA.