The Force Awakens is better than you remember

[godisawesome]

I agree with everything you've said, but I'd like to add one thing. Narratively she's not the Luke counterpart Finn is. Luke in ANH mentioned to Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru meaning he was willing to join the Empire just to get away from home. Finn wants to escape his past anyway he can and is the wide-eyed kid who goes on his own hero's journey of a man looking for a way out to being a hero at the end. Rey's counterpart is Obi-Wan lives alone out in the desert, does a lot of the saving, and wants to return the droid to the resistance.

I actually agree, but I think that’s because Rey and Finn actually split *a lot* of characteristics from the cast of ANH, with a lot of their own stuff as well, which is part of the reason it works - and that Rey, Finn, and Kylo are actually mostly best seen as “inversions” of Luke/Han/Leia and Vader rather than just explicit paralells.

- Finn inverts Han and Luke disguising themselves as stromtroopers, has a personal arc that most resembles Han’s in terms of how he gets actualized and in his strengths as a hero, but as you noted, completes most of the Hero’s Journey in one film, and Rey has more of the street smarts than he does (though he mimics Han in being shockingly good at improvising successful strategies and being cunning.) But he’s also defined by the horror of realizing what he was meant to be, which is unique to him.

- Rey inverts Luke’s conundrum at the start of ANH by being obsessed with staying on Jakku and ignoring her wanderlust in favor of denying she was abandoned, has some greater alertness about the Galactic situation like Obi-Wan, has street smarts like Han, but also has a string “raised by wolves” element to how she interacts with others, and begins her Hero’s Journey in TFA.

(For comparison, I’d say Finn made it about 3/4s of the way through a Hero’s Journey in TFA, while Rey’s cleared her first quarter only, but was clearly aligned as the main protagonist… and then TLJ desperately wants to ignore both of those because of how it impacts Kylo.)

TFA was Spencer's run on Spider-Man. Not a masterpiece like the IP's OG content, and it put a little too much emphasis on nostalgia, but it worked as a "Back to Basics" story after what came before (in Spider-Man's case it was BND/Slott, in Star Wats' case it was the Prequel Trilogy).

The only fundamental difference is that what came after Spencer didn't retroactively ruin his run the way everything after TFA ruins TFA. That's because Spencer (unlike Abrams) had a clear vision of how he wanted his mysteries to unwind. But it's also because the nature of monthly storytelling allows the earlier parts of a run to stand on its own. So Spencer's "Back to Basics" approach with Spider-Man - at least in the first half of his run - still holds up and wasn't "ruined" by what Wells is doing the way TLJ ruined TFA.

There’s also a difference in terms of how Wells and Johnson approached the elements.

Wells, as we’ve discussed, is a big believer in making sure that the “sacred status quo” can never be truly disturbed, and even seemed to deliberately play up his own changes as being temporary, enough that the facile and shallow nature of the story becomes a frustratingly “accommodating” flaw of the story; Wells is so self-aware that his story is shallow and temporary that he’s consciously lazy and impatient, because he expects his run to not matter as much when it’s over. It’s “accommodating” in that it limits the long terms impacts of his story, but frustrating in that he has identified why his philosophy is shallow, but ignores it.

In contrast, Johnson was playing with a “hard continuity” in Star Wars where change is expected as a matter of course, but mostly seemed more focused on “course correcting” what characters where in what place and in shocking the audience while completely ignorant that he was approaching everything in a shallow way. He made choices that thoroughly screwed multiple characters from multiple generations, and screwed up plot lines from the OT, OT, and TFA… but seemed to not notice or think that was even an aspect of the story.

Wells was going “We NEED the story to be shallow and focused only on the short term, because otherwise we’ll deal with the horror of change! Ah!”

Johnson was going “Pssh, this is a kid’s movie, change doesn’t happen, and I’ve gone deep for Star Wars because it has no depth, right?”

[Bruce Wayne]

Johnson was going “Pssh, this is a kid’s movie, change doesn’t happen, and I’ve gone deep for Star Wars because it has no depth, right?”

The problem with TLJ is that it mistakes cynicism for depth.
-Luke as a hero is reduced to a coward who tried to kill his nephew and who abandons Han and Leia and the Republic
-Poe is reduced to a mutineer whose disobedience is used to illustrate the morality of authority and the chain of command
-Finn as the deuteragonist of TFA is reduced to a punchline in a joke.

The writing in the movie is above all about subverting and undermining the heroic characteristics of the cast to help drive the plot of the movie. But it's not really depth...

And for a movie that repeatedly claims about the resistance being the spark that'll light the fire that'll burn the First Order down, it really falls short of showing us this. Something like Andor with minor characters like Maarva, Nemik or even Narkina V does a much better job of showing us the every days struggles against tyranny than anything in TLJ.

[godisawesome]

The problem with TLJ is that it mistakes cynicism for depth.
-Luke as a hero is reduced to a coward who tried to kill his nephew and who abandons Han and Leia and the Republic
-Poe is reduced to a mutineer whose disobedience is used to illustrate the morality of authority and the chain of command
-Finn as the deuteragonist of TFA is reduced to a punchline in a joke.

The writing in the movie is above all about subverting and undermining the heroic characteristics of the cast to help drive the plot of the movie. But it's not really depth...

And for a movie that repeatedly claims about the resistance being the spark that'll light the fire that'll burn the First Order down, it really falls short of showing us this. Something like Andor with minor characters like Maarva, Nemik or even Narkina V does a much better job of showing us the every days struggles against tyranny than anything in TLJ.

TLJ’s also got a thing for subverting and excusing the evil nature of one particular bad guy - Kylo - in the exact opposite way to the harsh, hostile standards the heroes are held to; Kylo can’t earn the wrath of Rey or have the film acknowledge the audience should hate him no matter how despicable, shallow, or self-centered he is, while outright selfless characters are retconned to be “secretly selfish” even in counterintuitive ways… unless they can be selfless towards Kylo. Rey can’t be motivated to strike against Kylo from the dark side according to TLJ, or to care more about the threat he poses to herself, Finn, and the Galaxy, but can be selfish enough to strike against Luke for frustrating her and “creating” Kylo… and Chewie is fully expected to be completely on board with trying to redeem Kylo immediately after he tried to kill Kylo.

And yeah, RO and Andor clearly show where TLJ is being banal, shallow, and dismissive of the “reality” of the story, acting more like a moody but privileged teenager than a wizened adult.

But the Luke thing is interesting to me for one comparison to TFA, since this thread is ultimately more about that movie than TLJ: why did TFA’ treatment of Han go over much better than TLJ’s treatment of Luke?

I mean, yes, there were pissed off Han fans… but it’s clear from stuff like Adam Driver’s interview with Rich Eisen and the general reception of TFA that the vast bulk of both hardcore fans and mainstream audience members was okay with Han being portrayed as having had his life wrecked by his son’s fall… and I think that’s for one simple reason: Han in TFA is still written like someone who matured from where we last saw him in ROTJ, unlike TLJ’s Luke.

Yeah, TFA Han re-entrees the franchise as a smuggler again… but the second he finds out that Rey and Finn are trying to help the Resistance, he’s on board; he explicitly makes it clear he’s come to believe in the Force and the Jedi, in a very well acted scene; and in general, that “hidden heart of gold” he had in the OT is no longer hidden, but worn on his sleeve, and the smooth way he acts as Rey and Finn’s mentor feels like both a natural evolution of the OT character, and a good way to have him pass the torch.

In contrast, while Hamill acts his ass off in TLJ, both he himself and many, many fans noted that it just wasn’t *Luke* he was playing; TLJ Luke is inherently self-centered in a way OT Luke couldn’t be, and acts more akin to a teenager throwing a fit than a war veteran traumatized and then healed by his conflict with his father. And it’s not like TLJks version of the character is very deep in exchange - it’s still an extraordinary myopic and un-nuanced characterization, more akin to a broad archetype than a person.

I Think a TFA still made sense for fans who watched the OT for the characters and their growth, while TLJ was almost exclusively for people who regarded the cast as archetypes without psychology.

[ChrisIII]

A bit OT perhaps but any thoughts that Lando basically became a hermit as well (his life was basically ruined too, although that's mostly referenced in the EU stuff)? Although at least when he's asked he does his best to help Rey and co. (although he kind of is unsure about flying, but that might be just because of age and not being at the helm for a long time) like Han did, and winds up being the main surviving OT character along with Chewie and the droids.

[DrNewGod]

Honestly, given what we know now, even Luke's journey as a Jedi was super rushed. Reckless, even. Luke's training flows across three films a lot better than Rey's one film, but still; when Luke defeated Vader he probably knew less about the Force than a eight year old youngling would have, back in the temple days. And he calls himself Jedi. I totally get why Baylon Skoll calls Luke and others trained like him "Bokken."...

I'm of the camp that says a lot more time passed between the Battle of Hoth and Luke's rescue attempt than most [quite reasonably] assume, with The Falcon Crew playing an extensive game of hide-and-seek with The Imperial Fleet before making it to Bespin. Still doesn't completely undermine your point, but makes it sit better with me.

[ChrisIII]

Lot of the sequel trilogty EU-and some parts of the comic series set between the OT-basically have Luke seek out a lot of Jedi artifacts, texts etc. to fill the gaps in his own knowledge, kind of like a Jedi Indiana Jones, occasionally with the help of Lor San Tekka (Max Von Sydow's character from the beginning of TFA) and Ben. His annotations to the ancient Jedi texts pretty much set up ROS after all.

The Temple seen in the Mandalorian and the flashbacks is also supposed to be on Ossus, an ancient Jedi library world.

Cal from the Jedi video games kind of does a similar thing, although we don't know his fate yet so it's unclear if he ever meets/will meet Luke.

[Gaastra]

Did enjoy FA. TLJ was "OK". Not as good but didn't hate it as bad as others. Luke acting angry didn't bother me as much as I read the marvel comics and he acted like that at times also! Heck him abandoning one of his female pilots for dead led her to become the new sith lord replacing vader! Way to go there luke!

Worst parts of lj to me where the Vagas mission was a failure and pointless. It only made things worse and could have been cut. Rose herself never bothered me any. The other is the stuck in the ship the full movie. Agghhh! Just get out of the ship already.

ROS was "ok" also. The horses in star wars jab is confusing to me people complain over this but horses in the marvel star wars comics and ewoks movies and cartoon are fine.

As for snoke.

Snoke has no history--so what. Emperor, vader and boba fett had no history in the original movies. We knew zip about the emperor. Nothing. Then he died. Vader a few lines that didn't add up decades later from ben and that's all you get. Fett had 5 lines and one was "agghhhh!" Died in a looney tunes gag. Jabba was a gangster. Thats all we got. You know almost zip about the bad guys.



As for FA. Yeah, still think it's a fun movie and would watch it over the awful prequal movies any day.

[Ascended]

I'm of the camp that says a lot more time passed between the Battle of Hoth and Luke's rescue attempt than most [quite reasonably] assume, with The Falcon Crew playing an extensive game of hide-and-seek with The Imperial Fleet before making it to Bespin. Still doesn't completely undermine your point, but makes it sit better with me.

What's your timetable look like? How long do you think Luke spent training with Yoda before Bespin? Do you think he returned to train more between that and rescuing Han from Jabba?

I figure, at best Luke spent a few days to a week training with Obi-Wan. A day or two on Tatooine, a day or two on the Falcon headed for Alderaan. Give or take. And at best he probably spent a month or two on Dagobah with Yoda before Bespin. There's no evidence to support it but Luke may have also kept hearing Obi-Wan's ghost after Yavin, and picked up a few things that way too. And again there's no evidence, but Luke may have returned to Dagobah while Lando and Chewie looked for Han.

So piled together, we might say that Luke got a full year of training....if we're being super, super generous about the timeline. We might even say two years, depending on what Luke did while Han was frozen. I don't think he got nearly that much time but the films leave plenty of room for interpretation, so its possible. But even two years is practically no training at all compared to the Old Republic younglings, who seemed to spend almost a decade learning before becoming padawans and then another decade (roughly) before becoming Knights.

[ChrisIII]

In the Marvel comics Luke seeks out a lot of Jedi relics (Which he does after the OT as well), and even some force-sensitives but ones that generally didn't become Jedi/ failed Padawans and one or two ghosts. Part of the current arc involves him working on his green saber (Currently he's using a yellow High Republic one as a replacement for the blue one)

There's a lot of mileage in particular out of Obi-Wan's journal that Luke discovers (But which leaves out the Anakin=Vader parts).

[godisawesome]

What's your timetable look like? How long do you think Luke spent training with Yoda before Bespin? Do you think he returned to train more between that and rescuing Han from Jabba?

I figure, at best Luke spent a few days to a week training with Obi-Wan. A day or two on Tatooine, a day or two on the Falcon headed for Alderaan. Give or take. And at best he probably spent a month or two on Dagobah with Yoda before Bespin. There's no evidence to support it but Luke may have also kept hearing Obi-Wan's ghost after Yavin, and picked up a few things that way too. And again there's no evidence, but Luke may have returned to Dagobah while Lando and Chewie looked for Han.

So piled together, we might say that Luke got a full year of training....if we're being super, super generous about the timeline. We might even say two years, depending on what Luke did while Han was frozen. I don't think he got nearly that much time but the films leave plenty of room for interpretation, so its possible. But even two years is practically no training at all compared to the Old Republic younglings, who seemed to spend almost a decade learning before becoming padawans and then another decade (roughly) before becoming Knights.

Those young kids were seen blocking remote practice bolts in Yoda’s class during AOTC, and that might be reinforced by how quickly Ezra started doing consistent Force stuff in Rebels, how the Legends EU Jedi students tended to quickly start doing basic stuff as well, or how Grogu acts, or how once Sabine manages *some* amount of Force Pull, she can do a massive Force Push afterwards.

It’s possible that learning to do the “tricks” is actually very elementary to a Force user’s education, and that the rest of the years of training is mostly covering getting “stronger” in the force, learning to do it while under increasing immense strain and stress, and getting better at the more “passive” parts of Force sensitivity, with the Padawan period being more like a prolonged “on the job” training in how to be a good diplomat/general/law enforcement officer/etc. And of course, prodigies and other “gifted” force users could simply learn and develop faster.

As long as the comparative gap between more experienced and more novice Force users and non-Force users remains consistent, you can arguably make the basic level of Jedi training be “quick to learn, longer to master.”

…And here I’d argue that TFA actually maintains comparative consistency between Rey and Kylo; if Vader could thrash Luke while holding back even after being damaged and when Luke’s gotten some more intensive training from Yoda, then of course Rey would be thrown around by Kylo, as she was at the start of the TFA fight (again). And just like how Luke *was* still dangerous enough as a novice to tag Vader once with the lightsaber, when Kylo is wounded and wasting timing torturing Finn (and getting tagged again by Finn), and then still holds back against Rey, she can pull out an escape.

[DrNewGod]

What's your timetable look like? How long do you think Luke spent training with Yoda before Bespin? Do you think he returned to train more between that and rescuing Han from Jabba?

I figure, at best Luke spent a few days to a week training with Obi-Wan. A day or two on Tatooine, a day or two on the Falcon headed for Alderaan. Give or take. And at best he probably spent a month or two on Dagobah with Yoda before Bespin. There's no evidence to support it but Luke may have also kept hearing Obi-Wan's ghost after Yavin, and picked up a few things that way too. And again there's no evidence, but Luke may have returned to Dagobah while Lando and Chewie looked for Han.

So piled together, we might say that Luke got a full year of training....if we're being super, super generous about the timeline. We might even say two years, depending on what Luke did while Han was frozen. I don't think he got nearly that much time but the films leave plenty of room for interpretation, so its possible. But even two years is practically no training at all compared to the Old Republic younglings, who seemed to spend almost a decade learning before becoming padawans and then another decade (roughly) before becoming Knights.

I don't see anything that would prevent Luke from having been on Dagobah for several months in his initial visit. From there, I go with the others saying he spent a lot of time relic hunting.

[ChrisIII]

There's some additional training that was cut from the film as well-some lightsaber stuff, mainly just target practice like in ANH, no Yoda sparring with him though.

[Celgress]

Eh, it was a retread of A New Hope nothing original except Finn's story but the rest was a copy and paste. Granted it was a great nostalgia trip but that was its main selling point for me. The next two movies for all their faults were fairly original, well, other than the ultimate big.

[ChrisIII]

Seems like a lot of EU in turn copies Finn's story. There's a large number of Disney characters in the books, comics, games etc. who are ex-stormtroopers, officers, or TIE pilots.

[Gaastra]

Liea teamed up with a stormtrooper in a few issues of the marvel comic also. Oddly was an unused john carter story rewrote for star wars with liea replacing john carter!