What Can Be Done with Jace Fox?

[Emperorjones]

i think there's still time for all of that. i'll eat my shorts if I'm wrong but I can't see DC putting those legacies on the cover 2x and leaving them to die (except for Jon and Damian) all of 2024.

Especially since that Amazons Attack book is ending? Yara's homeless right now too.

And I think making Jace into Orpheus is making Jace into an irrelevant character. I don't see how anyone could believe he would possibly sell better that way. His entire story revolves around the Fox Family, relegating him into team books by taking his hugely relevant codename from him would be a disservice to the character.

Especially since your suggestion, Emperorjones, is basically what Luke Fox and David Zavimbe are already doing.

Fair enough about Luke and David, Superboy-Prime, but Jace's codename is relevant because of Bruce, not because of him. Unfortunately, I don't think he had enough time to make the role distinct enough (granted his different origin, moving him to NYC, and having him work with the police arguably even more than Bruce does). All the other Batmen, outside Bruce and Terry McGuinness, have gone back to their principal identities, and have kept it pushing. What Jace (even if he's not using the Batman name) needs (what Orpheus needed and still does) is a creator with enough juice getting behind them and pushing them. I consider Cassandra Cain. She's gone through several identities, but is back to Batgirl, and she's still around because someone at DC likes her and wants to use her.

[Emperorjones]

Oh and re making him Orpheus, I would just prefer the original to come back. He was done dirty and was already unique on his own.

I'm cool with that. I read Orpheus Rising a few weeks back, and I felt like it was such a waste to not do more with this character or revive his legacy.

[Superboy-Prime]

Fair enough about Luke and David, Superboy-Prime, but Jace's codename is relevant because of Bruce, not because of him. Unfortunately, I don't think he had enough time to make the role distinct enough (granted his different origin, moving him to NYC, and having him work with the police arguably even more than Bruce does). All the other Batmen, outside Bruce and Terry McGuinness, have gone back to their principal identities, and have kept it pushing. What Jace (even if he's not using the Batman name) needs (what Orpheus needed and still does) is a creator with enough juice getting behind them and pushing them. I consider Cassandra Cain. She's gone through several identities, but is back to Batgirl, and she's still around because someone at DC likes her and wants to use her.

I don't see what Orpheus has to do with Jace but there's really no other Batman that's only used that identity incontinuity except for Terry, Jace and Bruce. Comparing him to Nightwing or Commissioner Gordon isn't the same thing.

And I don't think Jace's codename being relevant because of Bruce Wayne is anything negative, that's what it means to be a legacy character. I'd rather see Orpheus live and die by his own mantle, not potentially drag Jace down even further.

But I think his Batman will return soon. Aquaman doesn't have a book either, let's all examineeeeeeee this situation. Dawn of DC is nowhere near done.

[Emperorjones]

I don't see what Orpheus has to do with Jace but there's really no other Batman that's only used that identity incontinuity except for Terry, Jace and Bruce. Comparing him to Nightwing or Commissioner Gordon isn't the same thing.

And I don't think Jace's codename being relevant because of Bruce Wayne is anything negative, that's what it means to be a legacy character. I'd rather see Orpheus live and die by his own mantle, not potentially drag Jace down even further.

But I think his Batman will return soon. Aquaman doesn't have a book either, let's all examineeeeeeee this situation. Dawn of DC is nowhere near done.

The way I see it, the mysterious organization that was backing Orpheus could easily do the same for Jace. Jace's backstory was touched on, but not explored all that much, so he could easily be part of the same organization. And after Orpheus, he's sent back to Gotham to finish the job of Gavin King, the first Orpheus. I haven't read the Jace books in a while but he didn't have any particular strong tie to Batman, and from what I recall, he didn't know who Batman was, and I don't recall him knowing at first how closely his father (as well as Luke) worked with Batman.

If they had used Luke, Duke, David, Crispus Allen, Ben Turner, Michael Lane, or even Black Spider as a Black Batman all of their histories with Batman or Gotham are more firmly established than Jace's.

I would like to see a Gavin King resurrection because I didn't like how the character was written off and forgotten like that. But if they didn't bring him back, then reviving the legacy would be nice as well. And with their being little explored with the Orpheus character, the mysterious organization, and so forth, Jace could've easily been put into the role. Granted, Orpheus is not well known, is not popular, and I imagine an Orpheus title would struggle, but it would've given Jace more room to grow as a character. And Orpheus in New York wouldn't be much different than Batman in NY, outside of the name recognition of Batman. But while the name gets attention, once some find out that it's not Bruce, they won't care. Reviving Orpheus would be a challenge, but Peacemaker comes to mind. He was languishing for a long time, until The Suicide Squad film and now he's got a new lease on life. If not Orpheus, then another legacy name out there is Manhunter. If they can't come up with a brand-new name for him, there are those legacy names out there. Crimson Fox might be too on the nose I gather.

[Will Evans]

Well Jace at least has the connection with Katana. We can see more of that training.
And if a different incarnation of the Outsiders ever forms in Markovia again with Geo-Force, we have Jace already with the Markovia connections.

[Superboy-Prime]

The way I see it, the mysterious organization that was backing Orpheus could easily do the same for Jace. Jace's backstory was touched on, but not explored all that much, so he could easily be part of the same organization. And after Orpheus, he's sent back to Gotham to finish the job of Gavin King, the first Orpheus. I haven't read the Jace books in a while but he didn't have any particular strong tie to Batman, and from what I recall, he didn't know who Batman was, and I don't recall him knowing at first how closely his father (as well as Luke) worked with Batman.

If they had used Luke, Duke, David, Crispus Allen, Ben Turner, Michael Lane, or even Black Spider as a Black Batman all of their histories with Batman or Gotham are more firmly established than Jace's.

I would like to see a Gavin King resurrection because I didn't like how the character was written off and forgotten like that. But if they didn't bring him back, then reviving the legacy would be nice as well. And with their being little explored with the Orpheus character, the mysterious organization, and so forth, Jace could've easily been put into the role. Granted, Orpheus is not well known, is not popular, and I imagine an Orpheus title would struggle, but it would've given Jace more room to grow as a character. And Orpheus in New York wouldn't be much different than Batman in NY, outside of the name recognition of Batman. But while the name gets attention, once some find out that it's not Bruce, they won't care. Reviving Orpheus would be a challenge, but Peacemaker comes to mind. He was languishing for a long time, until The Suicide Squad film and now he's got a new lease on life. If not Orpheus, then another legacy name out there is Manhunter. If they can't come up with a brand-new name for him, there are those legacy names out there. Crimson Fox might be too on the nose I gather.

Right, resurrect Gavin King. Leave Jace as Batman. Let all those other characters come back and be relegated to minis that turn into minor appearances too.

Luke Fox, Duke Thomas, and David Zavimbe already show what happens to Black characters in the Batman mythos who undergo your type of suggestion. There’s no solo narrative for them anymore. And I don’t think that treatment would ever fit Jace Fox.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

There was a rumor for an ultimate DC line on Twitter. If it's true then putting Jace and the other 5G legacies would work better. Jace as Batman has more value without Bruce around to steal his thunder.

In canon, you are damned if you do and damn if you don't. I would've avoided putting Jace as Batman in the first place but that ship has sailed. So having him join Batman Inc and the other legacies is fair play. Marvel and DC is a quantity game so that gives him a home outside of solos.

[Emperorjones]

Well Jace at least has the connection with Katana. We can see more of that training.
And if a different incarnation of the Outsiders ever forms in Markovia again with Geo-Force, we have Jace already with the Markovia connections.

Forgot about this connection with Katana. Jace on an Outsiders team would be a good idea.

[Emperorjones]

Right, resurrect Gavin King. Leave Jace as Batman. Let all those other characters come back and be relegated to minis that turn into minor appearances too.

Luke Fox, Duke Thomas, and David Zavimbe already show what happens to Black characters in the Batman mythos who undergo your type of suggestion. There’s no solo narrative for them anymore. And I don’t think that treatment would ever fit Jace Fox.

The way I see it, Jace is already subsumed by calling himself Batman. There's a bit more daylight with David and Luke as Batwing, but Lane has a similar problem as Jace in terms of there already being an established person already in the roles they have. The vast, vast, vast majority of people who have heard of Batman will think of Bruce, and we might get more Jace-Batman comics, and perhaps a video game or cartoon appearance sometime in the future, but that's not going to change that. I don't think Jace got enough time to make himself even more distinct. McGuinness, with his future setting (as well as with Bruce literally giving him the mantle) is way better set up to be a separate Batman that's embraced and accepted.

Compared to Miles Morales, who had the benefit of being Spider-Man all by his lonesome in the Ultimate line, and really got helped by the Spider-Verse movies. It really helped make him distinct, and appealing in ways I haven't seen that happen with Jace.

I like Jace. I also like alternative Batmen. I loved Jean-Paul Valley in the Knightfall era, and I was also on board with Gordon's Batman too. But those runs were relatively limited. I would find it hard to see how they could have Jace working as Batman while Bruce is still around. So, I think he should get another identity. Being Batman doesn't mean much to him far as I see, not like it does to Bruce. He could still do what he does without being Batman. He's driven, but I don't get a need to wear this particular cape and cowl. Of course, "Batman" has the name-brand recognition and popularity and would turn more heads, and perhaps lead to a quick rise in sales, but I doubt that would last.

[Will Evans]

Ok, I just read on Twitter a crazy suggestion.
Since Val Zod is on prime Earth now, have him join the JSA alongside Powergirl as the JSA’s Superman. (Like on Earth 2)
And since Jace is the New York City Batman, have him meet up with Helena Wayne Huntress and join the JSA as their Batman. Since the both the JSA brownstone and now Helena Wayne are located in NYC.

It will never happen but I thought it was an interesting idea.

[Superboy-Prime]

The way I see it, Jace is already subsumed by calling himself Batman. There's a bit more daylight with David and Luke as Batwing, but Lane has a similar problem as Jace in terms of there already being an established person already in the roles they have. The vast, vast, vast majority of people who have heard of Batman will think of Bruce, and we might get more Jace-Batman comics, and perhaps a video game or cartoon appearance sometime in the future, but that's not going to change that. I don't think Jace got enough time to make himself even more distinct. McGuinness, with his future setting (as well as with Bruce literally giving him the mantle) is way better set up to be a separate Batman that's embraced and accepted.

Compared to Miles Morales, who had the benefit of being Spider-Man all by his lonesome in the Ultimate line, and really got helped by the Spider-Verse movies. It really helped make him distinct, and appealing in ways I haven't seen that happen with Jace.

I like Jace. I also like alternative Batmen. I loved Jean-Paul Valley in the Knightfall era, and I was also on board with Gordon's Batman too. But those runs were relatively limited. I would find it hard to see how they could have Jace working as Batman while Bruce is still around. So, I think he should get another identity. Being Batman doesn't mean much to him far as I see, not like it does to Bruce. He could still do what he does without being Batman. He's driven, but I don't get a need to wear this particular cape and cowl. Of course, "Batman" has the name-brand recognition and popularity and would turn more heads, and perhaps lead to a quick rise in sales, but I doubt that would last.

A majority of Miles Morales' comics have taken place in Earth-616. I don't think that's a great example.

We can all tell you don't like Jace being Batman at the same time as Bruce. But there's no argument against the fact that every Black character that already does what you want for Jace rarely actually show up in books, and if they do, they're running around in team books like Luke Fox.

Or stuck in event oneshots like David Zavimbe. Or having minor wholesome appearances like Duke Thomas.

Your dislike for the character being Batman does not mean him being "Orpheus" or "Irrelevant Fox" is better for the character.

[Aahz]

I like Jace well enough (I subscribed to his run), but he is derivative of Batman, just like the rest of Batman, Inc. Ghost-Maker might be a bit overrated, but he stands out more than Jace. He cuts a more distinctive profile.

Unless you really want a a black Batman who goes by that code name, I actually not really sure what Jace actually brings to the table.

I don't think his origin or motivation for becoming Batman are that well developed or interesting (I have actually still no real idea what his motivation is).

He is I think the 6th black male character they tried to add to the franchise since the 2000s.

And even if you want member of the Fox Family as Super Hero Luke allready overs that.

He he also doesn't really have any special skills, powers o.ä. that let him stand out.

If he would really join the Batfamily I have no idea what his niche in the franchise would be.


I mean he is not a bad character, but as bloated as the Batfamily already is "not bad" is imo not really enough to make the cut.

[Superboy-Prime]

Unless you really want a a black Batman who goes by that code name, I actually not really sure what Jace actually brings to the table.

I don't think his origin or motivation for becoming Batman are that well developed or interesting (I have actually still no real idea what his motivation is).

His book makes that really clear. Spells it out a lot, actually. It's pretty much just as prevalent as Bruce Wayne's motivation. How many of his stories have you read?

[Mutant God]

Jace on an Outsiders team would be a good idea.

Give him the codename Mr. Outsider then

[Superboy-Prime]

Give him the codename Mr. Outsider then

Wouldn't the point of Jace being on an Outsiders team be having him as the titular Batman in Batman and the Outsiders?

Anyyyyhoo~, I'm looking forward to this being followed up on in that Amanda Waller thingamajigger event. Just taking a long time.