Are the Hand boring villains?

[Android 17]

IMO, Matsu'o Tsurayaba is one of Marvel's best villains.

Came to say just that. Even his name is badass.

[Sutekh]

I think you might have to combine these two ideas like the mutant making all these Hand clones wouldn't be the guy in charge, he would be the victim of the true master of the Hand. Like I said. You need a charismatic villain running the Hand to make them interesting.

Oh yeah, I definitely meant for the genin-maker being basically trapped in this role by the futility of trying to escape a clan of professional assassins backed by a demon, and also his own sense of duty and resignation to his fate (it's not like he's ever had a life outside the Hand, where would he go? What would he do? Does he have a social security number? Is he insured? Does the government of Japan even have records of his birth anymore, or did they ever? He sees no way out, even if he could 'escape' this existence. Hand leaders may also recognize his value, and have gilded his cage a bit, housing him in style and treating him with feigned respect 'in deference to his long service to the Hand.' And he's probably surrounded by the largest force of non-expendable fodder genin, actual human recruits to the Hand, watching over their golden goose mutant and keeping him away from sharp objects that might tempt him to 'escape' in the only way left to him.).

And yes to the talk of Matsuo. He had style and made another good 'jonin' class Hand member, more able to function as a contact man and social schmoozer, than just a grunt. Someone has to make those contracts and deals. Can't have idiot genin in red pajamas making deals with rich businessmen and politicians!

[marvelprince]

Gorgon is probably the Hand assassin is like the most who I feel has a distinct personalities, but I agree in the Netflix series and in a lot of material they’re not much better than faceless ninjas. They have the same issue as Hydra and AIM where the organization is the threat vs its individual members but I think particularly in a show or movie you need a strong and charmastic personality for people to attach to. Which The Hand lacks. I doubt outside of Elektra that you’re typically comic fan can name anyone bad guys typically associated with them.

[Alan2099]

I thought Silver Samurai was a decent leader, but he just lacks a certain something that would put him over the top into being a GOOD leader. Wouldn't hurt to give him a few sidekicks or named henchmen as well.

[marvelprince]

I thought Silver Samurai was a decent leader, but he just lacks a certain something that would put him over the top into being a GOOD leader. Wouldn't hurt to give him a few sidekicks or named henchmen as well.

I think it doesn’t help that a lot of their recognizable villains are usually converted heroes like Tartanula, Blind Spot, Echo, etc. Basically if you work with Daredevil at some point The Hand is going to kill and bring you back. But that only ever temporary so there’s not really anyone like a Strucker or Madame Hydra to point to. I think having a strong ruling council that’s under the Beast and whatever hero turned villain is leading them that week.

[AnthonyO'Brien]

Would love a DD "Nuff Said" silent issue focussing on a single hand ninja. His childhood, first love, triumphs and tragedies could all flash before him as he disappears into a puff of smoke alongside a bunch of other ninja doing the same..

I'd also like a story that connects them to the Minoru clan (runaways) in some way. Enemies? Allies? Bit of both?

[The Overlord]

I thought Silver Samurai was a decent leader, but he just lacks a certain something that would put him over the top into being a GOOD leader. Wouldn't hurt to give him a few sidekicks or named henchmen as well.

I think they need a leader who is a new character, whenever you have an established villain as the leader, it feels like they will not stick around and will back to their usual M.O. and abandon the Hand soon enough. I think you need a guy whose main role is to be the master of the Hand, no more musical chairs with the leadership of this group.

The scary thing with the Foot is, that the Turtles have to go through a ton of Foot ninjas, only to get tired and have to deal with a master fighter like Shredder or Karai. Heck, in the 2003 cartoon, Shredder had his Foot ninjas attack the Turtles and then sneak up behind them and hit them cheap shots while they were dealing with the Foot ninjas. Having a master fighter who is good at strategy and will not be leaving the position as master of the Hand would make that group 10 times more menacing. The ninja mooks on their own don't cut it.

[Agent Z]

We've seen way, way too many nameless, faceless genin ganked off for them to seem remotely plausible, in even a fantastic place as the Marvel universe. Every young adult male in Japan has to be a freaking member of that 'secret organization' of fanatical cultists willing to pledge their souls to a demon. Plus, adding to their weirdly fake nature, they vanish like video game 'bodies' when killed, which makes them seem even more like not-real-people.

I can see two ways in which the Hand could seem a bit more plausible, and credible as a threat.

One, more jonin, the higher rank non-novice ninja, who aren't nameless faceless mooks, but have personalities, names, faces, perhaps even a sense of style or infamous reputation, favored weapons and tactics, perhaps magical irezumi tattoos and other fun personalizing traits. More like Kwannon was said to be, pre-body swap, an assassin with some limited psychic potential she could use to enhance her abilities to stalk and kill her targets. The notion that the Hand has irezumi tattoo artists, able to place magical tattoos infused with demonic power, like the ability to blend into shadows when not moving, or a mamushi viper's venom injected by a touch, or to breath a blast of flame into a target's face at close range, could also make these jonin, the only ones who would earn such magical tattoos, more distinctive, and serve as a source for them to sometimes have minor 'super powers' without themselves all being mutants or sorcerers.

Two, the genin we've seen, all identical, all dissolving into red smoke, dying by the *hundreds* without it ever seeming to depopulate the Hand's resources or reputation in any meaningful way, or discourage other young men from joining this laughably ineffective suicide cult, could be discovered to not be actual people at all. Either they are conjured by Hand ritualists, or even more relevant for their popularity in the X-franchise, a single mutant kept *very* safe in a hidden fortress in Japan has a power similar to Madrox, able to make endless copies of himself, all in his fighting prime, even though he is now an old man, kept alive by the Hand using drugs and magic and advanced science, because they've never found another to replace him, and they treasure his ability to pump out endless squads of disposable genin footsoldiers, that evaporate into red smoke when 'killed.' Over the decades, he's gotten both paranoid and terrified of personal danger, and yet also so, so tired of this life. He feels what happens to his genin creations, and so has felt himself stabbed through the heart by Wolverine's claws (among many other deaths) dozens upon dozens of times, even if he himself has never been within a mile of the man. A part of him is terrified that Wolverine will someday fight his way to his safehold, and kill him one last time. A part of him is ready for that day...

I think the Elektra movie is the only incarnation to show high-ranking Hand members with any uniqueness in terms of appearance, abilities and clothing.

[Sutekh]

I think the Elektra movie is the only incarnation to show high-ranking Hand members with any uniqueness in terms of appearance, abilities and clothing.

Yeah, for all the poop that movie (deservedly!) gets, the dude with the animated snake and bird tattoos and the lady with the poison touch were both amazingly cool, and I liked how the poison touch lady even said bitterly once while being reminded how important Elektra was for being 'the chosen one' or something that *she* used to be 'the chosen one' too! It seemed like that iteration of the Hand was deliberately targeting folks with superhuman potential to turn into their elite assassins, and seemed to have some sort of mystical means of identifying them, even before *they* knew they had superhuman potential. And now that you bring up Elektra, I realize that I must have gotten the idea of Irezumi 'inkanter' magicians from tattoo-guy!

The Hand from Daredevil, going after 'Black Sky' kids, seemed to be going a similar route. (Black Sky seeming reminiscent of that comment from Black Rain about how the aftereffects of Hiroshima and Nagasaki changed Japanese culture, and suggested to me that these 'Black Sky' kids were mutants that had been cropping up very rarely in Japan since the atomic bombs dropped.)

I thought Silver Samurai was a decent leader, but he just lacks a certain something that would put him over the top into being a GOOD leader. Wouldn't hurt to give him a few sidekicks or named henchmen as well.

Lots of mutants find new expressions for their powers. Maybe Silver Samurai learns to extend his energy field around his armor, as well as his blade, and gets an awesome defense to go with his awesome offense. Alternately, maybe he can charge a blade with a charge that lasts an hour, and then hand it off to a flunky, and when you enter the inner sanctum, there are thirty Hand ninja with charged blades that can cut through anything and the Silver Samurai standing proudly behind them! Or, maybe he can charge other things entirely, and mixes it up with some kyudo and whips out a longbow and slowly fires charged arrows that can blast holes in anything into the fray, while his ninja keep people away from him (he's no Hawkeye, because he has to stop and charge each arrow individually, which adds a second to his draw-and-fire rate, but his arrows pack a punch and can put a hole in people like Iron Man or Thor).

[vitaminbee]

I think people don't know how to use The Hand properly. They fail to build to anything. They think adding more backstory/details makes them special but I think they work best when they are more mysterious. I'd lean more into the "are they and their practices real or is it smoke and mirrors". I think Zdarsky handled them SO poorly. Same with Jason Aaron. It just made them seem so... bland. Do something new and something out of left field with them.

[Sutekh]

Do something new and something out of left field with them.

We've seen them lean into their supernatural / demon-patron angle. We've seen suggestions that they recruit superhumans or brainwash heroes. That leaves a ton of 'origin sources' in the Marvel universe.

Tap into Reaver cybernetics technology, perhaps with some cutting edge 'cyber-ninja' stuff straight out of a William Gibson cyberpunk novel? Some government minister has hooked them up with the latest in zaibatsu blacktech in exchange for his political rivals having messy 'accidents'. The corporation gets to field test its illegal cyberimplants and weapons on people who won't be missed if **** goes sideways, and any time their gear allows an exceptional kill, they get free publicity on the black market from the *exact* sort of scumbags who will be their prime customerbase for black market cyber-weapons.

Ally with / recruit a rogue Skrull, and use grafts from them to create a cadre of genin that can, to a very limited extent, disguise themselves as other people? (More, 'supah-instant-disguise kit' than 'grow tentacles' level shapeshifting. Not even Mystique level.)

Focus on that psychic angle from the Psylocke/Kwannon brain-swap days, and have genin coordinated on missions by psychically intuited data about their target, giving them seemingly 'magical' ability to bypass security or know stuff about / locate hidden targets.

Serpent Folk or Deviants or outcast Atlanteans (old followers of Attuma who've been persona non grata in Atlantis since their last coup attempt) or a Wakandan who was kicked out for being a putz could provide new options. 616 is *wide open* with possibilities.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, for all the poop that movie (deservedly!) gets, the dude with the animated snake and bird tattoos and the lady with the poison touch were both amazingly cool, and I liked how the poison touch lady even said bitterly once while being reminded how important Elektra was for being 'the chosen one' or something that *she* used to be 'the chosen one' too!

So, two things of note:

1) It wasn't Elektra who was the chosen one (the "Treasure" as the film calls it). It was a little girl named Abbie Miller whom Elektra was protecting.

2) The woman with the poison powers is that movie's version of Typhoid Mary. Ironically, her powers are much more fitting for her name than the comic version.

[Agent Z]

I think people don't know how to use The Hand properly. They fail to build to anything. They think adding more backstory/details makes them special but I think they work best when they are more mysterious. I'd lean more into the "are they and their practices real or is it smoke and mirrors". I think Zdarsky handled them SO poorly. Same with Jason Aaron. It just made them seem so... bland. Do something new and something out of left field with them.

Being lead by the Punisher was pretty out of left field.

[Sutekh]

So, two things of note:

1) It wasn't Elektra who was the chosen one (the "Treasure" as the film calls it). It was a little girl named Abbie Miller whom Elektra was protecting.

2) The woman with the poison powers is that movie's version of Typhoid Mary. Ironically, her powers are much more fitting for her name than the comic version.

Ah yes, the brain cells that remembered the little girl with the glowing yo-yo of death had committed hari-kari, so I forgot that bit. I'm off to drink something and kill them anew.

And yes, poison lady seemed way more 'Typhoid Mary' than Psychic Sybil.

[cam18]

I think there interesting in some of there comic appearances daredevil, elektra and some wolverine/xmen stuff being the stand outs imo....on the big and small screen not so much they make them boring as hell