At which point is a character beyond redemption?

[Doom'nGloom]

We all like a good redemption story so I want to ask people's opinion on the subject. At which point you go "Nah fam, I ain't buying it. No way .......... can ever be redeemed." Does ideology play a part in it? Say between Magneto and Bullseye is the former more deserving of redemption because he kills for a pessimistic view of humanity shaped by his past while the latter kills for money/lols? Although Magneto probably killed magnitudes more than Bullseye due to sheer capabilities. Or being regretful of killing is enough for deserving redemption? And what about heroes? Despite being terribly written there are some stories which cast a bad light on some heroes. During CW Tony and Reed had a prison in Negative Zone to throw their former friends in and they are also indirectly (or directly depending on how you view it) responsible for the death of Bill Foster. During CWII Carol had shown some pretty fascist tendencies. During HoM Wanda was responsible for what befell mutantkind. To be fair she was under intense emotional stress at that point and Marvel later pushed the blame to Life Force like they did for Jean with Phoenix Force. And what about Hank Pym? He has an (in)famous reputation for slapping Janet but Spidey also got physical with MJ during Clone Saga.

My personal view on it is that if the character is traditionally depicted as a hero than I chalk stories like CW, CWII, HoM, etc. up to bad writng but I'd still like to see the events of such books acknowledged in other stories and said characters trying to make amends for their misdeeds and move on to better things. I especially hate it if a one time story creates toxicity among comic fans for any hero.

If the character is originally a nasty villain though I'm much more unforgiving. I can never see Magneto as a heroic figure although Marvel tries to paint him that way at times. He has too much blood on his hands for that. At best he's a guy who shares similar views with those that he fights against about his enemies. As for my absolute favorite, Doctor Doom, I've seen people say that he's misunderstood, that he only does what he thinks is best for his country and he truly thinks he can lead humanity to better times and I can't help but chuckle at those. Not because they are wrong but because they are not enough to make him anything more than a villain. He's a guy who destroyed an entire universe because of a temper tantrum. He's a guy who subjugated the entire planet with Purple Man's powers. He's a guy who supported insurgents in Wakanda to destabilize the country and take its natural resource. He's a guy who continuously harassed F4 because of his inferiority complex. I mean Reed can be a jerk at times but that doesn't justify attacking four people over and over again. I don't love Doom because he's some misguided hero. I love him because he's a scientifically and magically gifted delusional autocrat who doesn't shy away from talking smack, kicking @$$ and slapping the heroes with their own hypocricy every now and then. He's not a mustache twirling bad guy. He doesn't shy away from teaming up with heroes if it suits him. He can even try being a traditional hero himself like in Infamous IM. However to be he'll always be the best villain in Marvel and anything other than that in the long term is missing the point of the character to me.

So what do the posters here think about redemption?

[Zero Hunter]

I agree about a villian turning hero. It had better be done very well and the villian can't have been total evil. You bring up Magneto well I'll give you one worse. Mystique. Marvel has bent over backwards so bad trying to change her into a good person since the movies. It has failed. Retcon after retcon and to me she will always just be a selfish evil person who only cares about herself. She should have had a kill on sight order on her decades ago.

[Doom'nGloom]

I agree about a villian turning hero. It had better be done very well and the villian can't have been total evil. You bring up Magneto well I'll give you one worse. Mystique. Marvel has bent over backwards so bad trying to change her into a good person since the movies. It has failed. Retcon after retcon and to me she will always just be a selfish evil person who only cares about herself. She should have had a kill on sight order on her decades ago.

One of the major missteps of the Krakoan era for me is the fact that so many of X-men's villains had been invited to the island. It both requires a suspension of disbelief and also robbed the mutants of some pretty good antagonists for the majority of this era.

[Grapeweasel]

After they sleep with Tony Stark.

[Refrax5]

My general philosophy in life is that no one is beyond redemption. However, the question is more if it's believable that the person or character in question is somebody who actually cares about redemption and is believable as somebody who would feel remorse and want to change their ways.

Magneto, I can believe. He's done awful things, but in service to a cause and because of his understandable anger and mental instability. He's intelligent and capable of empathy and remorse, so he's someone I can see believably reflecting on their actions and wanting to atone.

On the other hand, if you try to do a redemption story with someone like Carnage, an utterly remorseless maniac who's spent his life murdering people for fun, I think that wouldn't really be plausible. He's pretty much evil to the core, so I don't think there's any convincing way to write him as somebody with a conscience that suddenly feels bad about what he did. It just wouldn't make much sense based on his previous characterization.

I generally think that the present and future are more important than the past and that if a person genuinely regrets their past mistakes and wants to do good now, that's what matters. My basic thought is, if you didn't do good in the past, then do good now and in the future. That's more productive to society than sitting in a cell forever. What was that line Hawkeye had in one of the movies? "If you want to mope, go back to high school. If you want to make amends, you get off your ass."

So to me, it's more just an issue if it's believable for the character. Someone like Carnage or Joker isn't going to be plausible in a story like that. Characters like Magneto or Namor? Maybe.

[ARkadelphia]

When they do all the thing’s Beast’s done on Krakoa

[Anthony W]

I agree about a villian turning hero. It had better be done very well and the villian can't have been total evil. You bring up Magneto well I'll give you one worse. Mystique. Marvel has bent over backwards so bad trying to change her into a good person since the movies. It has failed. Retcon after retcon and to me she will always just be a selfish evil person who only cares about herself. She should have had a kill on sight order on her decades ago.

I agree. We might have to toss Moira on that list as well. I have no idea how they are going to redeem Moira after the whole cheap island resort fiasco. I'm sorry but Krakoa never felt like a country. It always struck me as a cheap resort that is a part of your cruise package. You can almost see Kathie Lee Gifford singing a theme song for them...

"IF YOUR FRIENDS COULD SEE YOU NOW OUT ON A MUTANT CRUISE! YOUR EATING FANCY FOODS AND RESURRECTING AS YOU CHOOSE! YOU WANT YOUR FRIENDS BACK HOME TO GET A GOOD LOOK AT THE FIRST RATE KRAKOAN CRUISE THAT YOU TOOK!"

[Holt]

No such thing. That’s why retcons exist. Jean Grey murders a planet? No, that was the Phoenix Force. Hal Jordan wipes out the Green Lantern Corps and brutally incinerates one of his best friends? Actually, he was possessed by an alien space bug. Magneto marches hundreds of innocent people into extermination camps? That was just some rando impersonating him!

The rare exceptions are someone like the Red Skull, who has always been pure evil and was complicit in one of the most widely known real world atrocities of the 20th century.

[DrNewGod]

Well, if Hank Pym is any indicator, slapping one's fan-fav wife whilst in the grips of mental illness will get it done.

[Aarkus]

After they sleep with Tony Stark.

this is a good one. both because it's true and because it made me literally lol

[Aarkus]

I would apply my real-life metrics to this: anyone who has hurt women, children or animals deliberately, is beyond redemption.

unintended casualties are one thing, but if a character deliberately does any of the above, don't even bother trying, please.

[scribbleMind]

Most characters aren't beyond redemption, but we also have to consider that redemption doesn't necessarily mean turning good for the foreseeable future. Redemption could be a single moment of sacrifice. It could be finally accepting responsibility for your actions. It could be just taking a more neutral stance. I think of Xanatos from Gargoyles. He got a family, and it changed him, but it's perfectly clear that while he typically isn't a villain anymore, he is not above committing dangerous acts of villainy to protect his family, nor is he going out of his way to commit acts of super heroism.

Of course, in a world full of gods of all sorts and magic of all sorts spiritual redemption / purification is arguably available to everyone.

Personally, my main concern with redemption is the narrative cost of it. Sometimes when a villain redeems themselves it kind of sucks because they were a great villain, and sometimes it leaves a void that can be hard to fill. For instance, people love that Black Adam is more of an anti-hero now, but Shazam definitely suffers from a lack of major villains these days. It doesn't help that The Monster Society are always forced together as opposed to being developed separately. The few new villains introduced into the lore have had no staying power.

[Micabe]

No such thing. That’s why retcons exist. Jean Grey murders a planet? No, that was the Phoenix Force. Hal Jordan wipes out the Green Lantern Corps and brutally incinerates one of his best friends? Actually, he was possessed by an alien space bug. Magneto marches hundreds of innocent people into extermination camps? That was just some rando impersonating him!

The rare exceptions are someone like the Red Skull, who has always been pure evil and was complicit in one of the most widely known real world atrocities of the 20th century.

[mugiwara]

The power of synergy can redempt anyone.

Nebula destroyed planets. That's multiple civilisations annihilated, that's genocides with a "s".
She loved doing that.

And now she is part of the Gardians of the Galaxy. Because of the movies where she is that poor bunny tortured by Thanos.

[Gaastra]

Spider-man thinks he is clone. First thing is does is try to choke ben to death. Pregent mary jane tries to stop him. He uses her as a vollyball slamming her across the room blooding her face with her Pregent. He then runs off to help the bad guy kill all those worthless humans. Then he finds out he is human. The bad guy "gasp" lied! Changes his mind and everyone forgives him and is still loved. Hank pym is so jealous.

Iron man betrays the avengers to kang. Goes on a killing spree at the mansion even killing an avenger. It's ok. A little kid merged him with a kid version from another universe and he gets a free pass. Unlike pym no trial or court hearing. Its only brought up in a short story in an Annuel for two panels and dumped. He even looks at the avenger he kills in vol 3 while talking about dead avengers on a screen. Of course, she is dead. You killed her. He didn't act like he cared. Then the civil war stuff starts. We all know what he did there!

Do we need to bring up the stuff reed did during cw. Doom would be proud.

Cyclops dumped his wife and kid to go back to his girlfriend. How did that work out for you? Thats tame to the later stuff he does.