To You, Who Is Catwoman?

[godisawesome]

I agree. I know The Man's not likely to publish a straight-up crook, and yet can't resist her popularity, but trying to take the outlaw out of Catwoman undermines most of what's best about her.

I think “Outlaw” is the right word for her, but I also think it’s important to recognize that the personality that we associate with Catwoman is very much *not* a supervillain, and that the old “she and Batman are enemies!” idea is effectively long dead - as is, to a great extent, the “it’s a conflicted relationship because he’s too stodgy and a defender of the law!” idea of their chemistry.

Basically, almost the *entire* modern era has had Bruce either tacitly or specifically accept her activities as a tolerable part of Gotham’s night life, and as a predictable altruist when worst comes to worse - and often only broken up for very specific conflicts that are often resolved amicably, even without the romance angle. It’s also become just a fact of life that crooked cops and sleazy upper-clusters have risen in prominence since the 70’s - and a Bruce willing to pull the “None of you are safe…” threat has consistently been shown to treat apprehending Catwoman as more an optional and dubious strategy in his war on crime.

The “heart of gold” has been much more important to the character than her greed since the 70s - even when her 90s book was a heist series, she was still written where a Bruce could basically call her bluff on some amoral activity if it would kill or hurt others, and be proven right. And that was even true in appearances in other books at the time.

I suppose it’s tied to her profile, though - if she’s strictly a supporting character making sporadic appearances, than making her more selfish and more bluntly a thief works (BTAS, The Batman cartoon, Batman Returns)… but if you make her a protagonist or deuteragonist, than she’s going to become more clearly a Robin Hood-like Chatoic Good anti-hero (The Batman Movie, her comics and most guest appearances in comics, and about half her cartoon appearances anyways.)

[Frontier]

I think “Outlaw” is the right word for her, but I also think it’s important to recognize that the personality that we associate with Catwoman is very much *not* a supervillain, and that the old “she and Batman are enemies!” idea is effectively long dead - as is, to a great extent, the “it’s a conflicted relationship because he’s too stodgy and a defender of the law!” idea of their chemistry.

Basically, almost the *entire* modern era has had Bruce either tacitly or specifically accept her activities as a tolerable part of Gotham’s night life, and as a predictable altruist when worst comes to worse - and often only broken up for very specific conflicts that are often resolved amicably, even without the romance angle. It’s also become just a fact of life that crooked cops and sleazy upper-clusters have risen in prominence since the 70’s - and a Bruce willing to pull the “None of you are safe…” threat has consistently been shown to treat apprehending Catwoman as more an optional and dubious strategy in his war on crime.

The “heart of gold” has been much more important to the character than her greed since the 70s - even when her 90s book was a heist series, she was still written where a Bruce could basically call her bluff on some amoral activity if it would kill or hurt others, and be proven right. And that was even true in appearances in other books at the time.

I suppose it’s tied to her profile, though - if she’s strictly a supporting character making sporadic appearances, than making her more selfish and more bluntly a thief works (BTAS, The Batman cartoon, Batman Returns)… but if you make her a protagonist or deuteragonist, than she’s going to become more clearly a Robin Hood-like Chatoic Good anti-hero (The Batman Movie, her comics and most guest appearances in comics, and about half her cartoon appearances anyways.)

I think she's more of a criminal than a Supervillain.

[OBrianTallent]

I think she's more of a criminal than a Supervillain.

That's an interesting distinction that I dont think most people acknowledge even in comics. A criminal can actually be a more or less good person, just someone who defies the laws to the point of breaking for selfish gain/reason. A villain is someone who is and commits acts that are inherently evil. Selina Kyle, Catwoman is a career criminal, she's not evil...she just makes her own rules regardless of what others say they should be.

[godisawesome]

That's an interesting distinction that I dont think most people acknowledge even in comics. A criminal can actually be a more or less good person, just someone who defies the laws to the point of breaking for selfish gain/reason. A villain is someone who is and commits acts that are inherently evil. Selina Kyle, Catwoman is a career criminal, she's not evil...she just makes her own rules regardless of what others say they should be.

That also likely ties into how often modern comics have her be unequivocally “off Batman’s list,” and especially so in some of the movies, and even in the early seasons of The Batman cartoon or some of the BTAS episodes; since Batman himself can have a strong “outlaw”/“good criminal” aspect depending on how many of the badguys and scumbags are either privileged elites or corrupt government enforcers, whenever he’s an outlaw, Selina almsot automatically becomes a heroic vigilante alongside him.

[Frontier]

Yeah, depictions like the Golden Age/Silver Age where she was running full on gangs and concocting elaborate schemes against Batman are pretty few and far between.

The most Supervillain aspect of her is that she wears a costume and gear to commit crimes.

That also likely ties into how often modern comics have her be unequivocally “off Batman’s list,” and especially so in some of the movies, and even in the early seasons of The Batman cartoon or some of the BTAS episodes; since Batman himself can have a strong “outlaw”/“good criminal” aspect depending on how many of the badguys and scumbags are either privileged elites or corrupt government enforcers, whenever he’s an outlaw, Selina almsot automatically becomes a heroic vigilante alongside him.

Granted, he did arrest her in her first appearance in B:TAS .

[bat39]

I think “Outlaw” is the right word for her, but I also think it’s important to recognize that the personality that we associate with Catwoman is very much *not* a supervillain, and that the old “she and Batman are enemies!” idea is effectively long dead - as is, to a great extent, the “it’s a conflicted relationship because he’s too stodgy and a defender of the law!” idea of their chemistry.

Basically, almost the *entire* modern era has had Bruce either tacitly or specifically accept her activities as a tolerable part of Gotham’s night life, and as a predictable altruist when worst comes to worse - and often only broken up for very specific conflicts that are often resolved amicably, even without the romance angle. It’s also become just a fact of life that crooked cops and sleazy upper-clusters have risen in prominence since the 70’s - and a Bruce willing to pull the “None of you are safe…” threat has consistently been shown to treat apprehending Catwoman as more an optional and dubious strategy in his war on crime.

The “heart of gold” has been much more important to the character than her greed since the 70s - even when her 90s book was a heist series, she was still written where a Bruce could basically call her bluff on some amoral activity if it would kill or hurt others, and be proven right. And that was even true in appearances in other books at the time.

Spot on!

I think this also coincides, broadly speaking, with the trend of Batman becoming more of a 'vigilante' as opposed to the 'super-cop' ("Duly deputized officer of the law!") that he was for most of his existence prior to the late 1980's. When you do away with the more rigid 'law-and-order'-oriented Batman of the Golden Age and Silver Age, it opens the space for grey areas such as Catwoman (or, more recently, Harley Quinn...a far more extreme case).

I suppose it’s tied to her profile, though - if she’s strictly a supporting character making sporadic appearances, than making her more selfish and more bluntly a thief works (BTAS, The Batman cartoon, Batman Returns)… but if you make her a protagonist or deuteragonist, than she’s going to become more clearly a Robin Hood-like Chatoic Good anti-hero (The Batman Movie, her comics and most guest appearances in comics, and about half her cartoon appearances anyways.)

If Gotham is a cesspool of the worst that humanity has to offer, then a cat-burglar is the least of Batman's problems. And if Batman is more concerned with enforcing his brand of justice, and has only "one rule", then it provides a certain leeway for Catwoman to continue to function. Throw in a more sympathetic backstory, and motivations that more often than not align with Batman's, and the conditions are ripe for the current status quo.

Yeah, depictions like the Golden Age/Silver Age where she was running full on gangs and concocting elaborate schemes against Batman are pretty few and far between.

The most Supervillain aspect of her is that she wears a costume and gear to commit crimes.

Granted, he did arrest her in her first appearance in B:TAS .

Its kinda crazy that the most objectively 'evil' incarnation of Catwoman is...from the 60's TV show!

Like, literally every other depiction of her is at least somewhat sympathetic. 60's TV Catwoman is just another super-villain...no different from the Joker other than her choice of motif.

[lilyrose]

If Gotham is a cesspool of the worst that humanity has to offer, then a cat-burglar is the least of Batman's problems. And if Batman is more concerned with enforcing his brand of justice, and has only "one rule", then it provides a certain leeway for Catwoman to continue to function. Throw in a more sympathetic backstory, and motivations that more often than not align with Batman's, and the conditions are ripe for the current status quo.



Its kinda crazy that the most objectively 'evil' incarnation of Catwoman is...from the 60's TV show!

Like, literally every other depiction of her is at least somewhat sympathetic. 60's TV Catwoman is just another super-villain...no different from the Joker other than her choice of motif.

And the will they/won't they between her and Batman. At least for all the Julie Newmar episodes. That increased the romantic aspect of their relationship when she was brought back in the comics after the success of the 60's show.

[Frontier]

every[/I] other depiction of her is at least somewhat sympathetic. 60's TV Catwoman is just another super-villain...no different from the Joker other than her choice of motif.

Brave and the Bold Catwoman was also just straight up the Golden Age/Silver Age Catwoman.

[godisawesome]

Brave and the Bold Catwoman was also just straight up the Golden Age/Silver Age Catwoman.

With one out-of-place Bronze Age But Humorous story with that Birds of Prey episode that was absolutely hilarious. Also, having read some Bronze Age Batman comics recently, the horniness of that episode was very faithful to the text.