So Hickman avengers is actually about Mr. sinister

[Anthony W]

Yeah, Marvel really doesn't understand the "too much of a good thing" concept.

I absolutely loathe the current Mr. Sinister. I prefer the classic version.

[KurtW95]

I absolutely loathe the current Mr. Sinister. I prefer the classic version.

Agreed. And making him into multiple clones is stupid. And everyone seems to forget that he's not a mutant.

[Bruce Wayne]

The Sinister/Enigma stuff is clearly a retcon from Ewing and Gillen. There's no way Hickman had that in mind even during HoX/PoX, let alone years ago during his Avengers run. Remember, Hickman's idea for Dominions was that they are alliances of ten or more Titans. Titans being AI civilizations that evolved to the point they left the physical universe and existed outside time and space. There are plenty of Dominions, and they each control certain areas of space-time.

Contrast that with Gillen's Dominion, which is an individual person who gathered enough energy (cosmic, magical, mutant, etc.) to push themselves outside of the universe and become a God/Dominion. That one Dominion then blocks others from achieving the same thing. Hickman's Dominions and Gillen's are radically different from each other.

I think this is my problem with Gillen in that he's not faithfully following up to the stuff in Hickman's PoX/HoX, but just repurposing it to jerk off on how cool and big of a threat Essex is in achieving Dominion status while ignoring the whole spirit of the idea of the Dominions being the penultimate form for machines and post-humanity like the Children of the Vault who all have been shafted since Hickman left the X-books. The refocusing off the Krakoan Saga onto Sinister has really derailed the story in that interesting ideas that Hickman brought up including the Dominions and also the Chimeras have completely been ignored by the writers to instead soapbox on how ethnostates are a bad idea (we got it!). Instead of that, it's Gillen being more interested in his pet characters like Mr. Sinister than exploring these concepts, which really has caused me to downgrade him even further as a writer especially given how I still remember he was a scab writer on Thor after JMS quit over editorial screwing him over with Dark Reign and Siege.

[Souther]

I think this is my problem with Gillen in that he's not faithfully following up to the stuff in Hickman's PoX/HoX, but just repurposing it to jerk off on how cool and big of a threat Essex is in achieving Dominion status while ignoring the whole spirit of the idea of the Dominions being the penultimate form for machines and post-humanity like the Children of the Vault who all have been shafted since Hickman left the X-books. The refocusing off the Krakoan Saga onto Sinister has really derailed the story in that interesting ideas that Hickman brought up including the Dominions and also the Chimeras have completely been ignored by the writers to instead soapbox on how ethnostates are a bad idea (we got it!). Instead of that, it's Gillen being more interested in his pet characters like Mr. Sinister than exploring these concepts, which really has caused me to downgrade him even further as a writer especially given how I still remember he was a scab writer on Thor after JMS quit over editorial screwing him over with Dark Reign and Siege.

This is a complicated situation, because I can almost agree with your points. Almost. Sure, a few or at least a couple of those ideas could have been further explored by Hickman...but would we really want the writers to slavishly follow, say, Hickman's outline without putting their own skills and talents to work towards their own interests and preferences? There'd be a lack of motivation and creativity in that approach.

By the way, it should be remembered that even Hickman never saw himself as the final authority or tyrannical arbiter of what would happen in the books. In fact, he was very open from the start that the X-Men line would be quite collaborative after HoX/PoX. For example, he co-wrote X of Swords with Tini Howard, which was surely not present in his original plans. Not to mention Hickman kept publicly and privately inviting Gillen to participate. That's all well-known.

In other words...perhaps there would have been more Children of the Vault, Chimeras and Dominion content if Hickman had stayed (and I'm especially sad we never got that Imperial Guard book), but I don't think he would have resisted Gillen's or Ewing's ideas. Rather, he might well have incorporated them into his own writing in some manner.

At the same time, it's not like those concepts have been totally ignored. They've been re-interpreted and changed, but that's the nature of any collaboration.

Business needs are also a factor, since the books are in endgame mode right now. For the record, Gillen did say in a recent interview that he could easily have used about six extra months to do more build up towards what they're currently doing...if that much more time were available, which it wasn't. Similarly, I figure the other writers would have done the same.

Needless to say, I do not share your evaluation of Gillen as a writer (nor would I call him a "scab" when there wasn't any strike by JMS or anything). However, that is a whole separate discussion.

Agreed. And making him into multiple clones is stupid. And everyone seems to forget that he's not a mutant.

It's worth remember that Hickman already established that Sinister made himself a mutant, so it's mostly a technicality at this point.

I absolutely loathe the current Mr. Sinister. I prefer the classic version.

It's a matter of taste. I found the classic version to be...mostly a striking visual presence yet rather shallow and in need of further elaboration as a character (in part because, well, Claremont's original idea for Mister Sinister wasn't anything very profound in the first place). Some of which they did eventually do with, say, stuff like the Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, but even after that point Sinister didn't have particularly engaging characterization in the modern era. Besides, Sinister was already messing around with genetics and clones, so even that part isn't necessarily new.

Ultimately, it was Hickman's opinion that Gillen was the one who finally figured out how to make Sinister more interesting/entertaining to write. Not everyone agrees, of course, but it's worth mentioning that we all have a wide range of views on these topics. I think they've done a number of interesting things with the character during the Krakoa era, including but not limited to Sins of Sinister.

[charliehustle415]

I think this is my problem with Gillen in that he's not faithfully following up to the stuff in Hickman's PoX/HoX, but just repurposing it to jerk off on how cool and big of a threat Essex is in achieving Dominion status while ignoring the whole spirit of the idea of the Dominions being the penultimate form for machines and post-humanity like the Children of the Vault who all have been shafted since Hickman left the X-books. The refocusing off the Krakoan Saga onto Sinister has really derailed the story in that interesting ideas that Hickman brought up including the Dominions and also the Chimeras have completely been ignored by the writers to instead soapbox on how ethnostates are a bad idea (we got it!). Instead of that, it's Gillen being more interested in his pet characters like Mr. Sinister than exploring these concepts, which really has caused me to downgrade him even further as a writer especially given how I still remember he was a scab writer on Thor after JMS quit over editorial screwing him over with Dark Reign and Siege.

I totally agree with, I honestly thought that the final big bads were going to be the Children of the Vault & ORCHIS, but it's someone who wasn't even really in the fight on either side.

I think that's what stings the most, he doesn't care about humans, mutants, or machines - it's just one jerkoff.

Hickman set it up where we as an audience thought it was humans vs. mutants but it's actually machines vs. humans & mutants; using the latter two to fight each other.

But NOTHING has come of that, it sucks so much.

[MichaelC]

I do think Sinister gained a much more interesting voice once he was retconned into a Victorian Doctor Frankenstein type. I could never hear a voice in my head when reading him before that. Once he became a Doctor Frankenstein type, I could hear a very clear voice when reading his dialogue.

[king of hybrids]

I mean the regular Hickman Dominions show up in Resurrection of Magneto and they are more than a bit freaked out about Engima’s nature

[Micabe]

Okay, after all the hype and expectation I did not see the Phalanx being Dominion coming --

-- Now all we need is for Magus to show up, and team up with Warlock and battle with the Phalanx and save the poor hapless mutants.

Taaia
Dominions
Technarchy
Nathaniel Essex

[Frobisher]

The Phalanx are intelligence harvesters for the local Dominion, and the Technarcy are (unknowingly) a pre-Phalanx infection phase. No idea how this last issue fits into that though!

[Triniking1234]

Yeah, Marvel really doesn't understand the "too much of a good thing" concept.

They should've learned that from all the Deadpool and Thanos spam they did.

Agreed. And making him into multiple clones is stupid. And everyone seems to forget that he's not a mutant.

Orbis and Mother Righteous could've been good new villains but now they're tied to Sinister.

[Nicoclaws]

They should've learned that from all the Deadpool and Thanos spam they did.



Orbis and Mother Righteous could've been good new villains but now they're tied to Sinister.

Honestly i would mind them coming back as regular villains even with the ties to Sinister, if that's not ALL they are about.
Like, Sinister and Apocalypse have ties but they don't necessarily appeared together or talk about each other all the time. Same for the Upstarts I think ?

[yogaflame]

I absolutely loathe the current Mr. Sinister. I prefer the classic version.

Agreed. And making him into multiple clones is stupid. And everyone seems to forget that he's not a mutant.

I'm with you two. I didn't like Gillen's Sinister the first time back in the Utopia age(didn't like that run at all). I didn't like Hickman's version. Nor has Gillen's second run with Sinister gone better(oh god, they are multiplying!?). I am completely checked out of that portion of the story(which, is like, the rest of this Krakoa thing..).

Original Sinister was a consistently eerie, mean, scary, inhuman mad scientist. There was no pretense of this foppish dandy. He's not supposed to be fun. Or funny. He bred Scott like an animal(after experimenting on him all his youth). All the Maddy drama is on him. And the fact that all our main characters really brought him into the fold and legitimately tried to work with him, depend on him, for the foundation of their very nation and their very bodies is just the height of stupidity. They assuredly deserve this fall of Krakoa. They were deluded to work with him in this regard. He is not even a real mutant! Though this Krakoa era did bring some cool stories(particularly in Lord Ewing's corner), I will be so glad to be done with this Sinister, to this degree.

[Devaishwarya]

Hallelujah! Testify in the name of our Lord!

[GoldenTiger]

What defenders series (year) is this from?

[Frobisher]

He bred Scott like an animal

Perfection. No notes.