Who's the Fastest Speedster Marvel Hercules could beat?

[Powerboy]

So comic books DO play somewhat fast and loose with weight and strength wrt martial arts, just as they do with magical comic book pressure points. Cap flips the Hulk. Batman flips Solomon Grundy. Lest those get the notation of 'But Batman and Cap are pretty big fellows themselves', Cass (also very strong, but not as LARGE) flips Road Hog. By grabbing him by his tusks (I facepalmed when reading that scene, but it was a very bad filler issue/OMAC tie-in anyway).

However, even then the martial artist talks about 'using their weight against them' (whatever that means - it's more likely that it's a very imprecise way of saying 'using their momentum - created by their mass already in motion in a direction - against them'). Or 'using their strength against them', which is a bizarre comment that likely basically boils down to, again, using their momentum against them. Or clearly the smaller person catches the larger person moving or off balance or mid-punch, over-extended, and THEN hurls them.

This is at least partly realistic. Back when I was doing Judo, I couldn't just walk up to a big person, grab them, and throw them, if they were skilled and immobile and deciding 'No' (I could if they were compliant, obviously, or at least not resisting). They'd just resist, laugh, and likely pick me up and drop me on my head (at the time, I was about 5'8" and 130-145 lbs, it was in my teens). However, Judo has a concept named 'Kuzushi' (no 'bless you' jokes, I've heard them and I'm sure any Japanese people in the crowd wouldn't appreciate them) that basically boils down to 'unbalance the other guy FIRST', usually by manipulating their bodies in specific ways to either actually unbalance them or tricking them into unbalancing themselves. At which point it's perfectly possible to throw them.

Flash-forward to recent times, and in my classes with my current teacher I've been taught a chunk about very subtly leading one's opponent to allow the same thing, with seemingly magical results. They're not magic; the other person is simply off-balance, I'm not, and I'm employing the biomechanics of my entire body properly, so anything done to them gives results that can appear grossly exaggerated.

So it IS possible, certainly, to throw someone a lot bigger and stronger - humanly! - than oneself.

However, getting these kinds of results when someone is trying to push your face in with a gameplan of their own is...difficult. Especially when the other person has some skill and can work towards cancelling whatever you're doing. So this subtle stuff tends to become nothing more than a few more little edges one might have in a tussle, that may or may not have any actual bearing on who wins or loses. It's not some magical 'I win!' card, because those don't actually exist. ^_^

And throwing someone who weighs more than me is one thing. Throwing someone who weighs THAT much more than me is another. And throwing someone who weighs that much more than me and is so strong that them flicking a finger would break all of my ribs...no. Like, I try to throw them and their arms go around me and...yikes, no, I'm jelly. Or one hand just kind of smacks against my shoulder mid-throw and...I'm jelly. Or they just grab me when I grab them and, despite being off-balance, simply using their wrist and forearm muscles flick me such that I fly 40' and slam into a wall. Etc.

You get the point - if he's THAT strong, Herc doesn't have to be on-balance to resist a throw from someone. He doesn't need to use his entire body, he's so strong. He could use his pinky finger.

But this is comics, so.

In comics, would it be possible for a small, fast 'martial artist' to throw Herc? Absolutely, as noted in my above post; comic books play really flexibly with reality.

However, also as noted above, I would then expect the writer to have Herc roar with laughter because it does all of nothing to him (getting dumped on his head? The guy eats hits from Thor...). And, being a master grappler himself and a gazillion times stronger than the superfast martial artist, simply not allow them them to throw him again by keeping on his balance and actually using that vast strength against any attempts to throw him (and grabbing him is likely a bad plan for a speedster anyway).

I concede that they might manage it occasionally after that with superspeed - catching him at exact moments and such - but again, it's going to accomplish nothing, and not stop him from thunderclapping all heck out of the area. ^_^

My martial arts experience is way less than yours but I did spend several years in Aikido. Hopefully, people won't jump in and make this an "Aikido us useless" conversation. The head instructor was big on practicality and a lot of what he taught, though called Aikido, was really Aiki-jitsu.

But my experiences were also that throwing or controlling a person who was not attacking, moving, or just, in some way, giving me momentum to work with, was almost impossible. I'm fairly big, so I could do it by strength and weight against a smaller person though I tried to not do that but if it worked, it was because I did it right.

If the person was bigger and stronger, it could work because they cooperated, or because they intentionally over-extended (cooperating). There were ways to get a person off balance, such as feigning a punch to the face, etc. But, of course, the more skilled and experienced the opponent, the less that is likely to work.

Then, you've got Hercules, who doesn't have superhuman weight but is millions of times stronger than any pure speedster I can think of or comic book martial artist. I remember the time Captain America was tossing Hercules all over the place, but it seemed that, after the first throw, Hercules was just playing with zero intention of really hurting his opponent. Otherwise, it was just P.I.S. since it would mean Hercules conveniently forgot how skilled he is.

Neither here nor there but I also remember the story where Hercules got so drunk he could barely stand. I wonder if this was the equivalent of Wonder Woman and bullets. With his constitution, how could his body hold enough alcohol for him to get drunk?

Edit: To answer the OP's question, I would suppose he could beat someone like Quicksilver although it would take a very long time. In the arena, Thunderclap. Outside of the arena, assuming QS doesn't just run away immediately, he can just move away, catch his breath, and engage again until he finally collapses from lack of sleep before Hercules does.

[Len Ikari145]

So, to clarify, 10-count means 'out of the fight, completely helpless' for a 10-count. Herc getting tripped over and over isn't that, especially since he can still pull off thunderclaps and such, or even ineffectually attempt to catch the speedster with a hand from the ground. He can't, because the speedster is too fast, but he's certainly not immobilized/KO'ed/whatever for a 10-count.

As for martial arts, while being strong doesn't negate leverage, there is a point where leverage fails - speaking from experience (including a bucketload of experience with various sorts of grappling), weight and strength DO matter, they DO make a difference, and Hercules is about a million times stronger than anything a martial artist would normally face. Martial arts are not magic, they don't really allow people to throw around someone who can pick up and tow islands - maybe once if they catch him really off-guard, but after that, Herc just settles himself and nothing human is going to remotely budge him, so long as he doesn't overextend. Herc is a 'martial arts master' himself, with thousands of years of experience and training. He's actually considered highly skilled by comic book standards.

And even if they can throw him or whatever through comic book magic martial arts , they can't lock or choke him, and the throw won't do much except make him laugh.

Dodging in and out is easy when one is a speedster, obviously. One doesn't need to throw stuff in Herc's eyes to do that, and even if one does throw stuff in Herc's eyes, what then? Barring the speedster being capable of hurting Herc or 10-counting him, once again we're back to them being incapable of doing anything while Herc cleans out his own eyes and learns to squint.

Or, again, in an enclosed area, just thunderclaps over and over and over again until the pitter-patter of tiny fast feet just...stops. He can do that blind, as well, or while blinking the sand out of his eyes.

Basically, the speedster needs to be capable of hurting Herc at the least to start racking up damage (hopefully before being thunderclapped into insensibility). Or have some kind of weird trick they do (speedforce shennanigans, whatever) that might allow them to take Herc right out of the fight.

Otherwise, we have someone of ridiculous speed who can't actually hurt or 10-count Herc, and is likely sadly vulnerable to being hit by Class 100 created shockwaves.

Here's Grey Hulk - someone a chunk weaker than Hercules, actually - dealing with Quicksilver. Granted, it's Quicksilver doing the silly 'run circles around people' thing, but the thunderclap is a good demonstration.

Attachment 136594

Sorry, it's unrelated to the topic at hand, but the grammar-nazi in me can't help but ridicule the editor for not double-checking Quicksilver's dialogue. Ugh.

[Captain Smith]

I did bring down my sensei ONCE with a sacrifice throw I read in a book and wasn't shown yet. ONCE is the operative word. He was big but not Hercules. Maybe I should suggest continually pulling down Hercules' panties so he is unable to get up for a ten count. LOL.

[Powerboy]

I did bring down my sensei ONCE with a sacrifice throw I read in a book and wasn't shown yet. ONCE is the operative word. He was big but not Hercules. Maybe I should suggest continually pulling down Hercules' panties so he is unable to get up for a ten count. LOL.

Naw. If he keeps pulling them down, he's attacking and it doesn't count as a ten count. But Hercules might yell, "Quit pulling down my undies", which would still be worth it.

[Sharpandpointies]

My martial arts experience is way less than yours but I did spend several years in Aikido. Hopefully, people won't jump in and make this an "Aikido us useless" conversation. The head instructor was big on practicality and a lot of what he taught, though called Aikido, was really Aiki-jitsu.

But my experiences were also that throwing or controlling a person who was not attacking, moving, or just, in some way, giving me momentum to work with, was almost impossible. I'm fairly big, so I could do it by strength and weight against a smaller person though I tried to not do that but if it worked, it was because I did it right.

If the person was bigger and stronger, it could work because they cooperated, or because they intentionally over-extended (cooperating). There were ways to get a person off balance, such as feigning a punch to the face, etc. But, of course, the more skilled and experienced the opponent, the less that is likely to work.

Similar to my own experience, then.

Then, you've got Hercules, who doesn't have superhuman weight but is millions of times stronger than any pure speedster I can think of or comic book martial artist. I remember the time Captain America was tossing Hercules all over the place, but it seemed that, after the first throw, Hercules was just playing with zero intention of really hurting his opponent. Otherwise, it was just P.I.S. since it would mean Hercules conveniently forgot how skilled he is.

Herc always has a soft spot for Steve.

Sorry, it's unrelated to the topic at hand, but the grammar-nazi in me can't help but ridicule the editor for not double-checking Quicksilver's dialogue. Ugh.

I'm cool with the 'The more fool you' part, that's at least good (if archaic). But 'let us see what it takes to mess you up', the shift in tone just about tears off my eyebrows.

Naw. If he keeps pulling them down, he's attacking and it doesn't count as a ten count. But Hercules might yell, "Quit pulling down my undies", which would still be worth it.

I'm going to stop right here and note that if you guys think pantsing Herc is going to impair or even mildly irk him, you're all delusional. The only person in the entirety of Marvel who could give less shits would be Namor, and both of them would take it for flirting or something.

[Herc] Thou hast exposed the Lion of Olympus...for the audience's viewing pleasure! *poses* Gaze upon the glory with awe!

[Alan2099]

As if being beaten by Hercules wasn't bad enough, you want them to be beaten by naked Hercules.

[Beadle]

I'm going to stop right here and note that if you guys think pantsing Herc is going to impair or even mildly irk him, you're all delusional. The only person in the entirety of Marvel who could give less shits would be Namor, and both of them would take it for flirting or something.

[Herc] Thou hast exposed the Lion of Olympus...for the audience's viewing pleasure! *poses* Gaze upon the glory with awe!

“Oh, thou wishest to receive two ‘Gifts’ from Hercules, dost thou? Thou knowest the reputation of my father and liege? It runneth in the family.”

*Insert highly inappropriate joke about Herc ‘finishing off’ Pietro then demanding he reciprocate.*

[Sharpandpointies]

As if being beaten by Hercules wasn't bad enough, you want them to be beaten by naked Hercules.

“Oh, thou wishest to receive two ‘Gifts’ from Hercules, dost thou? Thou knowest the reputation of my father and liege? It runneth in the family.”

*Insert highly inappropriate joke about Herc ‘finishing off’ Pietro then demanding he reciprocate.*

Nicely done, lads. ^_^