Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[godisawesome]

That's the beauty of it. MJ and Peter got written so well, sometimes it seems by accident or against Marvel's wishes, that they became much better and interesting characters when they are together.

Well put.

And more specifically, splitting them up robs MJ of some of the most important growth she ever experienced. Her demons and abusive past is what held her back from committing to Peter, and once she confronted those demons and moved beyond her insecurities and fears was she allowed to mature and find happiness, growth, love, and support with a man who respected and loved her unconditionally.

In some ways, you might argue that the genesis of Marvel Editorial's problem with MJ was that Stan Lee and other editors were too good at picking creators who generally excelled at character writing for their time, and thus anyone who tried to undermine the relationship still did it in a very character-focused way that almost inevitably would play out like this:

Writer 1 - "Here are some realistic psychological reasons for MJ to not be able to commit to Peter, stemming from a surprisingly bleak homelife for this time in comics, creating trust and fear issues that will eventually driver away from them, so that I can put focus on other female love interests."

Writer 2 - "...Okay, so the previous writer just made MJ super sympathetic and just added layers of internal grief to her attraction to Peter to separate them - and I'm all about that kind of good drama! Hot damn! So I have to bring her back and make that internal conflict the focus of her subplots in the comics... which means emphasizing how her better nature is just as in love with Peter as the audience is! And I don't have to waste time making a new character and repeating the same story as that other guys female love interest who didn't even get that developed because he didn't want her growing too close to Peter, and so remained boring!"

Writer 3 - "...Whoa, this is a shockingly well-written and long developing storyline about MJ and Peter that you don't see much in other comics, and is something I myself have been reading for years, so now this is my favorite subplot! Of course, now we have to progress MJ's story arc a bit, because she can't just stay in the same repetitive arc either... so she's going to overcome some of those trust and fear issues... which makes her an even more attractive love interest now that there's an entire story behind her growing better at filling that function!"

Writer 1 - "Dammit! Why did I make this story deeper?!?"

[Spider-Tiger]

In some ways, you might argue that the genesis of Marvel Editorial's problem with MJ was that Stan Lee and other editors were too good at picking creators who generally excelled at character writing for their time, and thus anyone who tried to undermine the relationship still did it in a very character-focused way that almost inevitably would play out like this:

Writer 1 - "Here are some realistic psychological reasons for MJ to not be able to commit to Peter, stemming from a surprisingly bleak homelife for this time in comics, creating trust and fear issues that will eventually driver away from them, so that I can put focus on other female love interests."

Writer 2 - "...Okay, so the previous writer just made MJ super sympathetic and just added layers of internal grief to her attraction to Peter to separate them - and I'm all about that kind of good drama! Hot damn! So I have to bring her back and make that internal conflict the focus of her subplots in the comics... which means emphasizing how her better nature is just as in love with Peter as the audience is! And I don't have to waste time making a new character and repeating the same story as that other guys female love interest who didn't even get that developed because he didn't want her growing too close to Peter, and so remained boring!"

Writer 3 - "...Whoa, this is a shockingly well-written and long developing storyline about MJ and Peter that you don't see much in other comics, and is something I myself have been reading for years, so now this is my favorite subplot! Of course, now we have to progress MJ's story arc a bit, because she can't just stay in the same repetitive arc either... so she's going to overcome some of those trust and fear issues... which makes her an even more attractive love interest now that there's an entire story behind her growing better at filling that function!"

Writer 1 - "Dammit! Why did I make this story deeper?!?"

Writers like Stern and Defalco and Conway gave MJ sympathetic reasons as to why she couldn't commit to Peter: her trauma. But then that also gave MJ something to overcome and IMO the narrative arc that they created from MJ's reconciliation of her past made the story all the much better.

What I'll never understand is: Why didn't Quesada just have Mephisto stop MJ from making amends with her sister after the second proposal? Then they could have used the original Stern/Defalco rationale for MJ's refusal to marry (ie: she doesn't believe in marriage because of what happened to her mother) until the end of time. What we ended up with made such an inconsistent mess of her characterization.

[Kevinroc]

Gerry Conway WANTED MJ to be the love interest. And who hired Conway for ASM? Was it Stan Lee or Roy Thomas?

(It was 1980s writers who ended up not wanting to ship Peter and MJ that ended up reinforcing the ship.)

Writers like Stern and Defalco and Conway gave MJ sympathetic reasons as to why she couldn't commit to Peter: her trauma. But then that also gave MJ something to overcome and IMO the narrative arc that they created from MJ's reconciliation of her past made the story all the much better.

What I'll never understand is: Why didn't Quesada just have Mephisto stop MJ from making amends with her sister after the second proposal? Then they could have used the original Stern/Defalco rationale for MJ's refusal to marry (ie: she doesn't believe in marriage because of what happened to her mother) until the end of time. What we ended up with made such an inconsistent mess of her characterization.

They wanted their retcon to change as little of continuity as possible.

(Then they gave mixed messages about the pregnancy during the Clone Saga. And never explained why Peter and MJ didn't marry after The Gathering of Five/The Final Chapter before the Vol. 2 reboot.)

[Spider-Tiger]

They wanted their retcon to change as little of continuity as possible.

(Then they gave mixed messages about the pregnancy during the Clone Saga. And never explained why Peter and MJ didn't marry after The Gathering of Five/The Final Chapter before the Vol. 2 reboot.)

Yeah but the wedding takes place immediately after the 2nd proposal. It honestly wouldn't have affected much more continuity (its not like Gayle and Philip Watson make regular appearances) and would've made more sense as an explanation as to why the couple didn't marry then what they came up with for OMIT. But I think Quesada was too focused on wanting to rewrite the wedding annual itself.

[Celgress]

Yeah but the wedding takes place immediately after the 2nd proposal. It honestly wouldn't have affected much more continuity (its not like Gayle and Philip Watson make regular appearances) and would've made more sense as an explanation as to why the couple didn't marry then what they came up with for OMIT. But I think Quesada was too focused on wanting to rewrite the wedding annual itself.

Agreed, but at least we didn't get his original very wacky retcon idea; Gwen alive and with Peter, Harry alive and with MJ, along with some other major changes. That would have been insane for both readers and creatives to deal with moving forward.

[Hurricane Billy]

She is, without a doubt, one of the best supporting characters in all of Marvel Comics.
Same for J. Jonah Jameson, Aunt May, and Harry Osborn.

Spider-Man has one of the most relatable secret identity/alter ego's in all of comics.
Along with Batman and the Flash, he has one of the Top 3 Rogues' Galleries in all of comics.
And you add that Best Supporting Cast in all of comics and you've got an unbeatable title that will be around till the end of publishing and/or super hero movies and cartoons.

As a fictional character, Spider-Man will stand the test of time-- up there with Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, and Alice in Wonderland. I have no doubt.

And MJ is a big part of that. In the same way I can't imagine a version of Spider-Man without J. Jonah Jameson or the Green Goblin, I can't imagine any iteration that doesn't have MaryJane Watson.

Before I joined the Brand New Day writing team, most of the times I'd write a story where Spider-Man showed up, she'd be there somewhere (Ren & Stimpy #6, Venom Super Special #1, Spider-Man/Human Torch, She-Hulk #4, Thing #6, etc.).

Coming on to BND, the assignment was to write an unmarried Spider-Man in the 616. That was the job. And, in a way, it still is. Having them together but not married, and not being able to have them get remarried, made it feel regressive to have her play the regular romantic roll in the book. (I can hear an entire message board's worth of eyes rolling right now...) But please bear with me...

Readers would have had over two decades worth of stories where Pete & MJ were married. Having MJ be the go-to love interest in the book, but NOT having them be married, would have felt like a step back. Her presence in that capacity would be a constant reminder of the book going backwards to a previous status quo instead of going forwards. Peter being in different relationships with different people would feel like something new. The assignment was to tell stories with an unmarried Peter Parker. So those were the alternatives-- MJ, but not married (which we'd seen before) or Pete dating other people (which we hadn't really seen in a long time).

One of the things I knew that would happen after I left the book was that the next writer would put them back together as a couple, because after 10 years that would be something that would be fresh again. And (I know no one on this board will believe it, but...) I thought that was a good idea! In early drafts of my plots for my last arc of ASM, I was moving them to a spot where they would reignite their relationship. My take was that I'd be teeing it up. I was told that Nick wanted to do that entirely in his run, I didn't want to step on any toes, so that element was scrapped from my issues. It wasn't going to be a big thing, just hints. But we nixed it anyway.

There's stuff I enjoyed when writing Renew Your Vows, there were so many moments that I enjoyed when writing that AF #1000 story. And I am happy that fans of MJ and of the relationship are getting to read it over in John and Marco's USM. Just as I was happy fans got to read stuff like that when Gerry, Ryan, and Jody were writing the Renew Your Vows ongoing. I think that non-616 realities like those books, and projects like the Spider-Verse movies, are where readers are going to continue to find that they can get that fix.

Hi Dan!

If you're willing, I was hoping that you might elaborate a bit more on aspects of Mary Jane's character that you like about her? Obviously there were reasons for why your run on ASM generally had her and Peter not together, but I really did enjoy your work with her on Renew Your Vows and your AF #1000 story. In particular, I couldn't help myself but beam at the sight of a senior aged MJ yelling bloody murder at Peter from the window of a patient room like the old married couple that they'd clearly become by that point in time in that story.

I think that's a big part of what makes MJ stand out personally. She's not just a funny comedic relief or the heartwarming love interest.

[Daibhidh]

Agreed, but at least we didn't get his original very wacky retcon idea; Gwen alive and with Peter, Harry alive and with MJ, along with some other major changes.

It would have shown the courage of their convictions though.
If I had been forced to write a story erasing the marriage, I would have had MJ sent back in time by Doctor Strange to stop Peter revealing his secret identity to the world, only she overshoots (because e.g. the Hood attacks the Avengers in Doctor Strange's house), and finds herself in her past body just before the death of Gwen Stacy. And then she has to decide whether to save Gwen or undo her history.

Not that I think undoing the marriage would have been a good idea. But at least it wouldn't muddy the waters with Mephisto and nobody else in the Marvel Universe being able to heal gunshot wounds.

[Garlador]

It would have shown the courage of their convictions though.
If I had been forced to write a story erasing the marriage, I would have had MJ sent back in time by Doctor Strange to stop Peter revealing his secret identity to the world, only she overshoots (because e.g. the Hood attacks the Avengers in Doctor Strange's house), and finds herself in her past body just before the death of Gwen Stacy. And then she has to decide whether to save Gwen or undo her history.

Not that I think undoing the marriage would have been a good idea. But at least it wouldn't muddy the waters with Mephisto and nobody else in the Marvel Universe being able to heal gunshot wounds.

We can cover this ground endlessly, and I know this because JMS himself posted about three dozen reasons and the whole actual exchange between him and Quesada about all the plotholes and inconsistencies OMD ultimately ended up with, with Quesada throwing up his hands and going "it's magic, we don't have to explain it."

And that... ultimately... is why it fails on a narrative level, and why the continued arbitrary reasons they keep Peter & MJ apart are growing more and more tiresome, because it's always "it's magic - again - and we aren't going to properly explain it". From devil deals to evil death gods to weird alternate dimensions with magic Mayan stones and fake magic kids to whatever convoluted nonsense that's as far removed from "MJ has commitment issues because of her very relatable upbringing" as you can get.

None of this is beyond saving at this point - but all of these things keep happing to her and to Peter far beyond the reasonable relatable means. We don't just see the puppet strings; we see the whole bloody puppeteer. It used to be "what are the characters doing?" and now it's become "what is editorial and the writers making them do this time?".

I digress. It's really only ASM that is this problematic at it. Almost every other book, comic, movie, cartoon, and game understands that you have to write for the characters and not just the plot. MJ, in particular, is such a STRONGLY colored character that readers are quite attuned to when her behavior and voice is "off".

[Spider-Tiger]

It would have shown the courage of their convictions though.
If I had been forced to write a story erasing the marriage, I would have had MJ sent back in time by Doctor Strange to stop Peter revealing his secret identity to the world, only she overshoots (because e.g. the Hood attacks the Avengers in Doctor Strange's house), and finds herself in her past body just before the death of Gwen Stacy. And then she has to decide whether to save Gwen or undo her history.

Not that I think undoing the marriage would have been a good idea. But at least it wouldn't muddy the waters with Mephisto and nobody else in the Marvel Universe being able to heal gunshot wounds.

I think that would have been a very interesting idea from a character writing POV. Problem is you're basically rewriting all of continuity back to 1973 which would likely impact the entire Marvel line. Of course, you could handwave that, and just say that not much outside of the Spider-man line happened differently. But you'd still have to jump back to the present time to sync things up with the rest of Marvel, which would essentially be jumping forward nearly a decade after Gwen's death. Writers would have to do much more to fill in the gaps of continuity: Did Harry Osborn ever become the Green Goblin? Did Spider-man ever date Felicia? And what prevented Peter from marrying Gwen Stacy instead? Did the 70s and 90s Clone Sagas never happen and as a consequence does Ben Reillly not exist? Etc.

[Daibhidh]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

A character has value if they have coherent character and motivations, and if their character development is actual development rather than being pulled around to fit the writer's preferred status quo.

[Mercwmouth12]

So how long till get Jackpot hot toys. The chasm ones from over a year ago were very popular and cemented his current status for years to come

[Tuck]

So how long till get Jackpot hot toys. The chasm ones from over a year ago were very popular and cemented his current status for years to come

Sarcasm?

I honestly don't know anything about toys. I could see a figure being popular while the character itself isn't in the comics.


(While I get it, it's sad that how a new character could potentially do as a toy or a cosplay is a considered factor when designing new characters for comics and other IPs.)

[Mercwmouth12]

Sarcasm?

I honestly don't know anything about toys. I could see a figure being popular while the character itself isn't in the comics.


(While I get it, it's sad that how a new character could potentially do as a toy or a cosplay is a considered factor when designing new characters for comics and other IPs.)

Chasm so far has had a couple of toys made so far and a mobile video game appearance(s) while the Jackpot persona hasn't had any so that tells you more of it being a temporary thing

[Garlador]

Chasm so far has had a couple of toys made so far and a mobile video game appearance(s) while the Jackpot persona hasn't had any so that tells you more of it being a temporary thing

We’ll see. Hasbro never had a problem scrapping the bottom of the barrel for a figure if it was a quick and easy product.

That said, MJ still has the record for most official action figures of a civilian comic character in the Legends line. That’s impressive.

My VG Hot Toys Spider-Man seriously could benefit from a proper Mary Jane too. I always keep those two together if I can.

[Kevinroc]

Chasm so far has had a couple of toys made so far and a mobile video game appearance(s) while the Jackpot persona hasn't had any so that tells you more of it being a temporary thing

This is why I never thought this concept would last and people put way too much thought into this whole thing.

I get that comic fans in particular can be neurotic by nature, but all the signs pointed to this being temporary from the beginning.