Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[Astroman]

Making an exception to my "do not write for free" rule:

1) MJ and Paul were never intimate, they just co-raised the chains. After all, they were the only 4 "people" on the planet, it makes sense to form a society of sorts. She is still with Paul because they both know Wayep still wants Peter dead but because she was tricked to accept Rabin's chains of her own free will, she's the only one who still has a psychic connection to Wayep and knows Wayep would use her to find Peter (Wayep is defined as trickster god, twisting the fine print about free will is something he would like; also Wayep seems to need an anchor to find Peter, can't find him on his own or else he would have had his revenge long before Dead Language). She doesn't want to distract Peter by having him worried about her all the time and she can't be with him because she is still an antenna for Wayep, hence why she told Peter it was too difficult to work with him in a recent ASM. Jackpot is her trying to learn how to use the device for the final showdown with Wayep, who Paul knows from the previous showdown on his planet is still recovering and regaining his corporeal form but will return. They are both trying to prevent the acopolypse on Paul's world from happening in 616 (twist would be Paul is just biding his time until Wayep recovers and then he is planning to take his father's place). Yes, she should tell Peter but she's still suffering from PTS from her ordeal; she feels she brought this on herself and she's the one who should solve it (see: MUH RESPONSIBILITY!!1! from ASM 9); she's reverting to old habits by putting on a happy face and running away from the people she cares the most about.

2) MJ has known all along the kids weren't real and Paul is an unreliable narrator, and she and Paul have never been intimate but she's happy to dangle him along to keep him sweet. By accepting Rabin's chains and Paul's largesse, she is keeping herself and Peter alive. She uses her considerable acting skills to pretend to be happy with Paul - even to Paul's face - even though it breaks her heart to hurt Peter because she knows if Peter dies, the apocolypse she foresaw in the vision given to her by Rabin would occur. She's with Paul because once she accepted the kids - she wasn't going to let even fake kids suffer in the dystopian world and besides, they gave her a buffer from Paul - she learned the chains couldn't be broken even when Rabin took the kids away (which he actually did to punish his wayward son, for wanting to keep MJ instead of sacrificing her). So she's keeping an eye on Paul and his potential to turn evil again much like how Peter said he was working for Norman to keep an eye on him. That's why MJ placates Paul whenever he brings up how sorry he is that his dad made him commit planet murder, to keep him docile and unsuspecting. That's also why she pretended to be bad actress while Paul was listening in on her fight with Francine, so Paul wouldn't suspect she is actually giving the acting performance of her life. She got him to modify the Jackpot device so she could learn how to use it without killing herself, with the full intention of using it at full power, regardless of the cost to her, to ensure she can protect Peter if and when a final showdown occurs. She doesn't tell Peter because she knows Paul has the ability to listen in on her and see through her eyes when he wants thanks to the chains - hence why he listens in on her and sees through her eyes when she's Jackpot - and she doesn't want to tip her hand.

Not the best, but that's off the top of my head.

I'd support either of those scenarios!

[Astroman]

I feel like this thread could use it right now so here's a drawing by dan parent
Attachment 139245

Nice!!!!!!!!!

[Huntsman Spider]

I'm going to make a distinction here that "interesting" doesn't have to mean "likeable". There are plenty of interesting characters I dislike. So concerning Paul, he has a genuinely "interesting" backstory. A man from a destroyed world with the apparent guilt of having a hand in its destruction. He's Oppenheimer on steroids, theoretically, coupled with some mastery of math magic and a literal "last man standing" survivalist history. Given the nature of his failures, he should be deeply interesting to spend time with and get into his head, as that level of culpability in billions of deaths would be nearly paralyzing for even the most heroic of characters. If he's genuinely a "good man", he would be spending every waking second trying to show how he's turned his life around and atone for his mistakes. Feed the homeless, volunteer at a shelter, offer his services and unique expertise to one of the many agencies or hero organizations that would greatly benefit from his knowledge... instead of just staying at home jobless, eating popcorn in crocs, mooching off MJ's hospitality, and occasionally controlling how much power she has from the safety and security of a computer screen. He apparently invented a literal superpower weapon, and I still have no idea why MJ is the one wearing it and not him, the one who created it and can manipulate it better than she can. She puts herself in harm's way and he's just her guy in the chair who just occasionally reminds MJ about how sorry he is about what he once did and throwing himself pity parties.

That's not an interesting character to me. That's a louse.

That doesn't even factor in any suggestions of shady or ulterior motives.

So to use a counterexample, I think of the Doctor Strange from "What If?" who ended up destroying his own universe in misguided attempts to do the right, but selfish, thing and save the woman he loved. He wound up the sad, sole survivor, burdened with the guilt of his actions. Driven mad from loneliness, he became a character of sympathy and pity and disgust. His isolation and desperation led him down a dark and fascination path of corruption and redemption, resulting in some of the highest acclaim from critics and one of the most interesting character arcs of the animated series.

THAT would be a template I'd use instead of the soggy wet bread of a character currently living with Mary Jane. It's been two years, and he's a character fans have grown to dislike MORE as more is revealed about him. And at this point, I think his greatest contribution to the book is being so universally disliked that he was ranked one of CBR's top 10 new Spider-Man villains of the past 10 years... even though editorial insists he ISN'T one. The fanbase collective made up their minds long ago.

Good on you for reminding us of What If's Strange Supreme. The tragedy and horror of that particular version of Doctor Strange . . . was done quite well, I thought, by and large.

Making an exception to my "do not write for free" rule:

1) MJ and Paul were never intimate, they just co-raised the chains. After all, they were the only 4 "people" on the planet, it makes sense to form a society of sorts. She is still with Paul because they both know Wayep still wants Peter dead but because she was tricked to accept Rabin's chains of her own free will, she's the only one who still has a psychic connection to Wayep and knows Wayep would use her to find Peter (Wayep is defined as trickster god, twisting the fine print about free will is something he would like; also Wayep seems to need an anchor to find Peter, can't find him on his own or else he would have had his revenge long before Dead Language). She doesn't want to distract Peter by having him worried about her all the time and she can't be with him because she is still an antenna for Wayep, hence why she told Peter it was too difficult to work with him in a recent ASM. Jackpot is her trying to learn how to use the device for the final showdown with Wayep, who Paul knows from the previous showdown on his planet is still recovering and regaining his corporeal form but will return. They are both trying to prevent the acopolypse on Paul's world from happening in 616 (twist would be Paul is just biding his time until Wayep recovers and then he is planning to take his father's place). Yes, she should tell Peter but she's still suffering from PTS from her ordeal; she feels she brought this on herself and she's the one who should solve it (see: MUH RESPONSIBILITY!!1! from ASM 9); she's reverting to old habits by putting on a happy face and running away from the people she cares the most about.

2) MJ has known all along the kids weren't real and Paul is an unreliable narrator, and she and Paul have never been intimate but she's happy to dangle him along to keep him sweet. By accepting Rabin's chains and Paul's largesse, she is keeping herself and Peter alive. She uses her considerable acting skills to pretend to be happy with Paul - even to Paul's face - even though it breaks her heart to hurt Peter because she knows if Peter dies, the apocolypse she foresaw in the vision given to her by Rabin would occur. She's with Paul because once she accepted the kids - she wasn't going to let even fake kids suffer in the dystopian world and besides, they gave her a buffer from Paul - she learned the chains couldn't be broken even when Rabin took the kids away (which he actually did to punish his wayward son, for wanting to keep MJ instead of sacrificing her). So she's keeping an eye on Paul and his potential to turn evil again much like how Peter said he was working for Norman to keep an eye on him. That's why MJ placates Paul whenever he brings up how sorry he is that his dad made him commit planet murder, to keep him docile and unsuspecting. That's also why she pretended to be bad actress while Paul was listening in on her fight with Francine, so Paul wouldn't suspect she is actually giving the acting performance of her life. She got him to modify the Jackpot device so she could learn how to use it without killing herself, with the full intention of using it at full power, regardless of the cost to her, to ensure she can protect Peter if and when a final showdown occurs. She doesn't tell Peter because she knows Paul has the ability to listen in on her and see through her eyes when he wants thanks to the chains - hence why he listens in on her and sees through her eyes when she's Jackpot - and she doesn't want to tip her hand.

Not the best, but that's off the top of my head.

Yeah, either of those could work, though I'll cop to leaning more toward the second.

[Majesty]

I'm going to make a distinction here that "interesting" doesn't have to mean "likeable". There are plenty of interesting characters I dislike. So concerning Paul, he has a genuinely "interesting" backstory. A man from a destroyed world with the apparent guilt of having a hand in its destruction. He's Oppenheimer on steroids, theoretically, coupled with some mastery of math magic and a literal "last man standing" survivalist history. Given the nature of his failures, he should be deeply interesting to spend time with and get into his head, as that level of culpability in billions of deaths would be nearly paralyzing for even the most heroic of characters. If he's genuinely a "good man", he would be spending every waking second trying to show how he's turned his life around and atone for his mistakes. Feed the homeless, volunteer at a shelter, offer his services and unique expertise to one of the many agencies or hero organizations that would greatly benefit from his knowledge... instead of just staying at home jobless, eating popcorn in crocs, mooching off MJ's hospitality, and occasionally controlling how much power she has from the safety and security of a computer screen. He apparently invented a literal superpower weapon, and I still have no idea why MJ is the one wearing it and not him, the one who created it and can manipulate it better than she can. She puts herself in harm's way and he's just her guy in the chair who just occasionally reminds MJ about how sorry he is about what he once did and throwing himself pity parties.

That's not an interesting character to me. That's a louse.

That doesn't even factor in any suggestions of shady or ulterior motives.

So to use a counterexample, I think of the Doctor Strange from "What If?" who ended up destroying his own universe in misguided attempts to do the right, but selfish, thing and save the woman he loved. He wound up the sad, sole survivor, burdened with the guilt of his actions. Driven mad from loneliness, he became a character of sympathy and pity and disgust. His isolation and desperation led him down a dark and fascination path of corruption and redemption, resulting in some of the highest acclaim from critics and one of the most interesting character arcs of the animated series.

THAT would be a template I'd use instead of the soggy wet bread of a character currently living with Mary Jane. It's been two years, and he's a character fans have grown to dislike MORE as more is revealed about him. And at this point, I think his greatest contribution to the book is being so universally disliked that he was ranked one of CBR's top 10 new Spider-Man villains of the past 10 years... even though editorial insists he ISN'T one. The fanbase collective made up their minds long ago.

Always great to see an actual answer. And a good one at that.

I like your idea, I like this part in particular

He has a genuinely "interesting" backstory. A man from a destroyed world with the apparent guilt of having a hand in its destruction. He's Oppenheimer on steroids, theoretically, coupled with some mastery of math magic and a literal "last man standing" survivalist history. Given the nature of his failures, he should be deeply interesting to spend time with and get into his head, as that level of culpability in billions of deaths would be nearly paralyzing for even the most heroic of characters. If he's genuinely a "good man", he would be spending every waking second trying to show how he's turned his life around and atone for his mistakes. Feed the homeless, volunteer at a shelter, offer his services and unique expertise to one of the many agencies or hero organizations that would greatly benefit from his knowledge.

I like that a lot, preferably in the things he could do in modern time. We know he has a job. It's never specified. We don't know what he does other than be MJ's guy in the chair. Him actually doing those things or talking to MJ about those things and wanting to do them are the way you'd narratively tell people that he is a good person, without MJ just saying it.

Personal moments with Paul and MJ where they can relax, and Paul talks about wanting to do those things, or even talking about volunteering at the shelters, or helping with the homeless problem, or using his technology to help other companies as well as some of the other superheroes in the city? Paul waxing philosophical about these things with happiness whilst MJ listens are the kind of things you do to build these characters. He could mention how he helped a kid earlier that kind of reminded him of their - and then he could stop himself and apologize, and MJ could sit/relax closer to him and ask him to go on whilst holding his hand, and Paul could start telling the story. You could end a comic there, we don't need the story, but they do, and its another way of showing both their closeness and healing. Whilst also establishing Paul's mentality and where his heart truly is.

Those are the kinds of ideas you do whilst building a character in that way and is a fantastic template to work on.


Additionally, I'd probably have started putting at the end of each ASM comic, a B-Story that took place in the other world Mary Jane and Paul were trapped in, that showed them surviving(in more than just snippets) but also showed their chemistry, how they depended on each other, and moments of them raising their kids, as well as the moment Paul tells MJ who he really is.

So much of the 'story' of the growth of Paul and Mary Jane as a couple and the 'how' they fell in love, and the juicy things therein, is trapped in another dimension and was only shown to us in 'snippets' in an issue. Now had they been showing us longer versions of them together as the B-Plot at the back of the ASM stories, it would give people more opportunity to see both Paul and MJ more fleshed out, both from the dimension to modern time when they returned. Show their kids and the adventure they had at school or talking to Mary Jane about it. Show more of what they're like as parents, etc. Stuff like that in the back of ASM issues would have helped a ton if THAT was how they decided to show what happened with MJ and Paul, rather than trying to condense it down to a section single issue.

They COULD still do that, if they wanted to show those actual moments that happened in the other dimension or show what they're building off of. If anything it'd get across the feeling that MARVEL is actually committed to them currently and not treating it as temporary. But the longer they keep it 'arms-length' the more it will feel that way, and the more people will get frustrated.

The anger doesn't just come from Paul feeling like 'an obstacle'. Well maybe for some people, keeping their OTP from happening is all they need. But the anger truly stems from how relatively 'safe' they play it with Paul and MJ.. and when you do that, it just makes people go "Why are you wasting our time? Just get on with it already, we know you aren't really committed to this, stop trying make it seem like we should actually care." Which is why I will always say, if you're going to do something, commit to it. Not committing or playing it 'super safe' at 'arms length' only makes things worse.

[Frontier]

I don't know if anyone is really all that angry about how "safe" it is because getting move invested in the relationship would frankly probably irritate people more. I don't think there's any point salvaging something born from such a faulty and badly-executed premise or what's there to get out of it other than what editorial wants.

Like why do we need to be invested in MJ and Paul? Or Paul in general? I'm a romance and relationships fan but I feel like none of this was done in good faith and I don't see why it should be accepted as such.

The Superman comics could have tried to make Jonathan Ceasar more of a thing in the New 52 but that probably wouldn't have made their handling of Lois and her relationship with Clark any better while he was romancing Wonder Woman and Lois was...barely doing anything.

[TinkerSpider]

Always great to see an actual answer. And a good one at that.

I like your idea, I like this part in particular

Don’t know if you noticed, but in the end Garlador went with making him an outright villain.

And also, comics only have 20-30 pages an issue. There's barely enough story per issue to justify $4.99, there's absolutely no way they are going to put a backup in each issue. The book is called The Amazing Spider-Man. That's who people spend their hard earned money on to read about.

Paul doesn't have a character because the current creative team doesn't want him to have a character. The end.

It's not like the writing in this run has been stellar on any account. Paul is only one sympton. There are multiple ways this run alienates the audience, starting with a Peter Parker who has spent much of this run falling down after a few punches and being wholly ineffectual.

And now, I'm going to go back to discussing Mary Jane, because she's the topic of the thread. Not bad writing and plot obstacles that are going to be memory holed as soon as this run is over.

I don't know if anyone is really all that angry about how "safe" it is because getting move invested in the relationship would frankly probably irritate people more. I don't think there's any point salvaging something born from such a faulty and badly-executed premise or what's there to get out of it other than what editorial wants.

Like why do we need to be invested in MJ and Paul? Or Paul in general? I'm a romance and relationships fan but I feel like none of this was done in good faith and I don't see why it should be accepted as such.

The Superman comics could have tried to make Jonathan Ceasar more of a thing in the New 52 but that probably wouldn't have made their handling of Lois and her relationship with Clark any better while he was romancing Wonder Woman and Lois was...barely doing anything.

I agree no one is angry. We're just bored and tired of having our time wasted with the obvious spinning tires going nowhere.

And I think you're confusing Jonathan Caesar with another character? Caesar is the man who was obsessed with MJ and kidnapped her around ASM 308-309 - a story that once again demonstrated MJ didn't need no stinking super powers to take care of herself - and to save Peter as well.

[Frontier]

Ohhhh...Lois New 52 boyfriend was Jonathan Carrol. Close enough .

[Lifetap]

I mean if they wanted to deep dive into Paul the place to do it would be in the Jackpot story not in the Spider-Man story (beyond anything that directly involves him during ASM). They just haven't really chosen to do anything in Jackpot beyond, he can magically put a limiter on the watch so MJ doesn't just die (why wasn't it there before?), he is MJ's guy in the chair, and he was just following orders which lead to a globacide (genocide doesn't really seem to do the scale justice).

I am sure you there is some stuff I missed but I am not that invested into the Jackpot so I probably missed them.

[Kevinroc]

It's not like the writing in this run has been some massive Hickman X-Men levels of redefining the franchise and setting new standards. It's been mostly mediocre Spider-Man comics for the last few years. It's been at the point for a long time that people have been trying to find ways to retcon all of this to salvage MJ's character and her relationship with Peter after how this run has treated her and her relationship with Peter. And with Ultimate Spider-Man basically outselling this title by a considerable margin, I don't know how that doesn't end up happening. It's not about trying to salvage Paul. There's nothing there to salvage. It's "how do you salvage MJ" because she's the character who matters in this equation.

This run took all the good will that came from the MJ and Black Cat Beyond one-shot and ran it into the ground. They totally blew it. It's almost impressive to see.