Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[Tuck]

When I started reading Spider-man titles a problem he had was that there was almost no one to turn to for help since he had no friends with powers.

That's a source of dramatic tension. It's the kind of thing writers and audiences should want in stories.

[Kevinroc]

When I started reading Spider-man titles a problem he had was that there was almost no one to turn to for help since he had no friends with powers. Even Felicia was far from a sure bet. He had the Fantastic four but that was mostly for Venom related stories.

Now I’m just waiting for Aunt May or Jonah to get powers.

Golden Oldie will be canon one day!

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[Frontier]

When I started reading Spider-man titles a problem he had was that there was almost no one to turn to for help since he had no friends with powers. Even Felicia was far from a sure bet. He had the Fantastic four but that was mostly for Venom related stories.

Now I’m just waiting for Aunt May or Jonah to get powers.

And now he can't win a single fight without help.

It was even bad in the 2017 cartoon where practically every episode he needed someone to come in and save him.

[Huntsman Spider]

When I started reading Spider-man titles a problem he had was that there was almost no one to turn to for help since he had no friends with powers. Even Felicia was far from a sure bet. He had the Fantastic four but that was mostly for Venom related stories.

Now I’m just waiting for Aunt May or Jonah to get powers.

More than friends with powers, he didn't even have someone to honestly confide in until Mary Jane admitted she'd known for years, if not since the moment he sneaked out of his house in costume to avenge his Uncle Ben's murder, that he was Spider-Man, particularly since he feared Aunt May would have a heart attack and die on the spot if she ever found out. It was a very lonely existence.

[Celgress]

That's a source of dramatic tension. It's the kind of thing writers and audiences should want in stories.

Co-signed for truth, it is a classic formula that worked for decades. My biggest single complaint with Modern 616 Spidey is Peter's all but non-existent civilian life. Since OMD Peter's civilian life has been steadily eroded to the point of inconsequentiality.

[Knightsilver]

Co-signed for truth, it is a classic formula that worked for decades. My biggest single complaint with Modern 616 Spidey is Peter's all but non-existent civilian life. Since OMD Peter's civilian life has been steadily eroded to the point of inconsequentiality.

Which is ironic...since the whole point of OMD was supposedly to make him "young and relatable"...which being married supposedly didn't...

[TinkerSpider]

I really want to know what happened behind the scenes toward the end of Spencer's run to Beyond and the Wells run. I'd love a Life of Reilly style tell-all. That probably won't happen.

At the very least, I think killing Marvel Editorial's idea that enragement equals engagement would be nice. But that would require sales on ASM to just completely collapse and that won't happen.

I would love a tell-all, too. Maybe one day. Depends on what kind of NDAs they make people sign these days.

I do think USM definitively kills “enragement equals engagement” especially if USM continues to deliver KOs to ASM when they go head to head. ASM sells well in a depressed market. It’s a top seller for the existing market of committed comic book buyers.

USM is reaching a new audience and doubling the numbers. USM has beaten Transformers (a very successful title), Batman and now ASM in head to head matchups by very large margins - based on the ComicsHub data which is by no means scientifically accurate or reliable. But since people like to point to ComicsHub as “proof” ASM is a top seller: well. USM just doubled Marvel’s supposedly most successful title’s sales and that’s with the same amount of variant cover offerings (but less of USM’s were incentive covers).

USM is proof that a happy reader is an even more engaged buyer. Jackpot and BC not landing in the weekly top ten despite being a #1 with 10 non-retailer exclusive variants (four more than USM and ASM) seems to prove “engagement = engagement” is a false canard as well.

[Spider-Tiger]

USM is proof that a happy reader is an even more engaged buyer. Jackpot and BC not landing in the weekly top ten despite being a #1 with 10 non-retailer exclusive variants (four more than USM and ASM) seems to prove “engagement = engagement” is a false canard as well.

Jackpot and Black Cat not landing in the top 10 is perhaps the biggest source of relief for me. Hopefully, that'll further encourage them to trash that concept entirely.

[Kevinroc]

I would love a tell-all, too. Maybe one day. Depends on what kind of NDAs they make people sign these days.

I do think USM definitively kills “enragement equals engagement” especially if USM continues to deliver KOs to ASM when they go head to head. ASM sells well in a depressed market. It’s a top seller for the existing market of committed comic book buyers.

USM is reaching a new audience and doubling the numbers. USM has beaten Transformers (a very successful title), Batman and now ASM in head to head matchups by very large margins - based on the ComicsHub data which is by no means scientifically accurate or reliable. But since people like to point to ComicsHub as “proof” ASM is a top seller: well. USM just doubled Marvel’s supposedly most successful title’s sales and that’s with the same amount of variant cover offerings (but less of USM’s were incentive covers).

USM is proof that a happy reader is an even more engaged buyer. Jackpot and BC not landing in the weekly top ten despite being a #1 with 10 non-retailer exclusive variants (four more than USM and ASM) seems to prove “engagement = engagement” is a false canard as well.

You would think USM's success would kill Marvel's "enragement equals engagement" but it won't. ASM is still one of Marvel's best-selling titles. Marvel will brush off USM's success and still tout ASM as one of their best-selling titles. Don't be under any illusions about that.

If you want to see actual change to ASM, its numbers would have to completely collapse.

[TinkerSpider]

You would think USM's success would kill Marvel's "enragement equals engagement" but it won't. ASM is still one of Marvel's best-selling titles. Marvel will brush off USM's success and still tout ASM as one of their best-selling titles. Don't be under any illusions about that.

If you want to see actual change to ASM, its numbers would have to completely collapse.

The numbers have collapsed from a certain point of view. The direct market is dire. Comic book shops are complaining and now have to sell toys, collectibles and manga to survive. Manga is what many shops attributed for keeping their lights on during the pandemic, not superheroes.

ASM sells well, the way the top horse buggy in the Amish and Mennonite communities sells well. Compared to other buggies, it's doing great.

Compared to Honda Accord, the buggy doesn't sell that well.

USM DOUBLED ASM's numbers. For every copy of ASM sold, USM sold TWO. Let that sink in.

And it's not a one-off. USM #2 also sold very well against Batman, the other top comic book title.

There is good evidence USM is expanding the market and bringing in new people who aren't currently buying other comics. So if ASM sales are good, USM sales are twice as good. Marvel is leaving A LOT of money on the table.

Now, this is only one match up. It will take USM continuing to bury ASM for several months to come to see any change. And not just for ASM, but for all of Marvel.

At the moment, Marvel has buggy money. They have top buggy money. No one is disputing that.

But Marvel would like to have Honda Accord money. Their overlords at Disney would very much like to have Honda Accord money. And no one crunches a spreadsheet harder than a Disney analyst.

Also, again reiterating that Jackpot and BC #1 proves that enraged readers don't buy. So there's evidence on both sides Brevoort's aphorism is a canard.

(With the usual disclaimer that ComicsHub numbers are noisy and squishy and non-scientific and shouldn't be used for hard analysis or extrapolate beyond those 125 shops)

[Kevinroc]

The numbers have collapsed from a certain point of view. The direct market is dire. Comic book shops are complaining and now have to sell toys, collectibles and manga to survive. Manga is what many shops attributed for keeping their lights on during the pandemic, not superheroes.

ASM sells well, the way the top horse buggy in the Amish and Mennonite communities sells well. Compared to other buggies, it's doing great.

Compared to Honda Accord, the buggy doesn't sell that well.

USM DOUBLED ASM's numbers. For every copy of ASM sold, USM sold TWO. Let that sink in.

And it's not a one-off. USM #2 also sold very well against Batman, the other top comic book title.

There is definitive evidence USM is expanding the market and bringing in new people who aren't currently buying other comics. So if ASM sales are good, USM sales are twice as good. Marvel is leaving A LOT of money on the table.

Now, this is only one match up. It will take USM continuing to bury ASM for several months to come.

But at the moment, Marvel has buggy money. They have top buggy money. No one is disputing that.

But Marvel would like to have Honda Accord money. Their overlords at Disney would very much like to have Honda Accord money. And no one crunches a spreadsheet harder that a Disney analyst.

Nobody outside of the comics division cares about comic sales. And even then, I wonder how much the people in the comics division actually care about comic sales. As you said they are leaving money on the table. ASM remains one of Marvel's best-selling titles and unless its sales completely collapse, I wouldn't expect any actual changes.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You would think USM's success would kill Marvel's "enragement equals engagement" but it won't. ASM is still one of Marvel's best-selling titles. Marvel will brush off USM's success and still tout ASM as one of their best-selling titles. Don't be under any illusions about that.

If you want to see actual change to ASM, its numbers would have to completely collapse.

I think the reception to Wells' run and USM are both game changers. I mean, based on how much Marvel lost control of the narrative with these two books, I don't know if the handful of pro-OMD editors left still have plausible deniability like they did in 2008-2018.

They'll have to justify to investors and other higher-ups why it's okay for ASM to clearly leave money on the table, especially after the PR nightmare that was Kamala's death. I don't know if a sound justification for that is possible anymore. Not to mention that retailers will be pressuring Marvel for more Peter/MJ content after USM.

I could be wrong about this. But if there's really only 2-3 guys holding Peter and MJ apart at this point, I just don't see the company as a whole not at least returning to Spencer's status quo. Those guys aren't the heads of the company. Even Brevoort has a boss who reassigned him. (Also if everything was rosy behind the scenes, Lowe and Cebulski wouldn't seem as upset/angry with fans as they have recently seemed).

[Kevinroc]

I think the reception to Wells' run and USM are both game changers. I mean, based on how much Marvel lost control of the narrative with these two books, I don't know if the handful of pro-OMD editors left still have plausible deniability like they did in 2008-2018.

They'll have to justify to investors and other higher-ups why it's okay for ASM to clearly leave money on the table, especially after the PR nightmare that was Kamala's death. I don't know if a sound justification for that is possible anymore. Not to mention that retailers will be pressuring Marvel for more Peter/MJ content after USM.

I could be wrong about this. But if there's really only 2-3 guys holding Peter and MJ apart at this point, I just don't see the company as a whole not at least returning to Spencer's status quo.

As I just said literally a few moments ago.

Nobody outside of the comics division cares about comic sales. And even then, I wonder how much the people in the comics division actually care about comic sales. As you said they are leaving money on the table. ASM remains one of Marvel's best-selling titles and unless its sales completely collapse, I wouldn't expect any actual changes.

[Tuck]

Nobody outside of the comics division cares about comic sales. And even then, I wonder how much the people in the comics division actually care about comic sales. As you said they are leaving money on the table. ASM remains one of Marvel's best-selling titles and unless its sales completely collapse, I wouldn't expect any actual changes.

Yeah, I think as long as they're not losing money and not causing some kind of PR disaster that escapes the niche fan bubble, Disney doesn't care what Marvel does. Disney owns Marvel for the movies, television shows, toys, and video games.

[Garlador]

Which is ironic...since the whole point of OMD was supposedly to make him "young and relatable"...which being married supposedly didn't...

Ironically, Mary Jane as Peter’s significant other EXPANDED the supporting cast because it pulled in MJ’s friends and family too. Aunt Anna took on a bigger role, MJ’s sister and her trauma with her father became important, Peter was an Uncle to Gayle’s kids too, MJ’s cousin Kristy was introduced, MJ herself had a circle of friends close to her - from Gloria to Sandy to Jill to others.

Once MJ was deprioritized, it took much of her supporting cast along with her.