Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[Coop]

I do wonder how often Peter actually goes out as Spider-Man and how often he spends time with MJ and the kids.

Probably a lot. The comic mentions explicitly that he has a reduced need for sleep. So he likely can go out every night after the kids go to bed and be back before MJ wakes up and grab a few hours of sleep without it severely impacting him.

I also agree with tinker that we're supposed to infer that Peter has been out stopping petty crimes and smaller criminals in the month that has elapsed between this issue and the last. And that went out supposed to view his encounters with shocker and bullseye as the only times he's been out as Spider-Man

[Kevinroc]

Don't forget that Peter's job gives him ample opportunity to be Spider-Man as well. He isn't going out enough that it is actually causing problems with MJ (yet?).

It's also very possible that MJ knows but is waiting for Peter to come clean.

[Daibhidh]

It's also very possible that MJ knows but is waiting for Peter to come clean.

spoilers:

What do I need heroes for? I've got you.

end of spoilers

If that lines's not teasing the possibility that she knows, I'm not sure what it's doing.

[Frontier]

I feel like this version of Peter would've told MJ from the get-go, especially when it seemed like they discussed the thing with Teen Tony.

I think we’re supposed to infer that in the month(s) between the books Peter had been going out and doing his thing - Gwen talks about how he’s being portrayed in the media.

I do wonder how often Peter actually goes out as Spider-Man and how often he spends time with MJ and the kids.

Probably a lot. The comic mentions explicitly that he has a reduced need for sleep. So he likely can go out every night after the kids go to bed and be back before MJ wakes up and grab a few hours of sleep without it severely impacting him.

I also agree with tinker that we're supposed to infer that Peter has been out stopping petty crimes and smaller criminals in the month that has elapsed between this issue and the last. And that went out supposed to view his encounters with shocker and bullseye as the only times he's been out as Spider-Man

I think it's an issue with Hickman's pacing and more telling than showing, especially because the books jump from month-to-month in real time.

Also he still has his photographer job and so the hours seem as beneficial towards that as it did 616.

[Daibhidh]

I feel like this version of Peter would've told MJ from the get-go, especially when it seemed like they discussed the thing with Teen Tony.

I normally think that giving Peter secret agent parents was a misstep; but at times like this I actually think that the secret agent parents explain something about Peter's psychology, namely that he comes from a family culture of believing that you protect people by keeping secrets and revealing them only on a Need to Know basis.

[Majesty]

Guess we're doing this now (*sigh*).

The expression "too little, too late" comes to mind.

The point of this character isn't for the audience to like them. And on that front, they've definitely succeeded. The point of this character is to serve as a temporary stumbling block before Peter and MJ get together again. The problem is they bungled the execution on a foundational level to such a ludicrous degree that I am actually shocked these people are professional comic creators.

There's also the fact that, given ASM's accelerated schedule, the main book is nearly at its 50th issue at this point in time. Nearly 50 issues (or more than 50 issues if we're counting things like the ASM annual or this spin-off mini) is simply too late in trying to make the audience care about a character it has expressed such hatred for. They should have removed this character by this point. But I guess they're waiting for the end of the run for that. (And yes, they know people hate Paul. Marvel Editorial has made jokes about how people hate Paul.)

I swear they want to make it easy for the next creative team to earn brownie points with the fandom by completely minimizing and reducing MJ and Paul to non-romantic/non-sexual. Which will be easy when they write the tamest interactions between them like this.

Can we move on now, please? I dislike the way people react to this stuff and would rather focus on stuff people are enjoying.

Cool, because I'm enjoying Jackpot so I'll talk about my enjoyment of that. You don't for your reasons and that's fine. But if people want to be immature and attack others for liking a comic they don't then that's their prerogative.

So you can move on, but I'll continue to talk about what I enjoy in a comic when it does something I enjoy, just as I'll critique something I don't but not hold anything against someone that it doesn't get to/bother as bad as it does me, cool?

For the record, it's never really too late to make someone care about a comic book character if you do the right things with him. Damian Wayne and Jason Todd are prime examples of that. It's just however that these things are made far in advanced so they can't just "change" a comic that already has a bunch of issues that are essentially done as far as the hard parts go before the second is even released. New writers can always change things up.

Celeste does far more with Paul than his creator ever has, and I appreciate that as well as MJ showing affection towards him. A constant I'll always have is if they wanted us to believe that MJ and Paul had a thing, there needs to be affection shown, real affection and acknowledged affection. Whether or not he's just a "transitional champion" is moot. Commit to it, roll with it, run with it. For however long it lasts. They've done it with Peter and they've done it with Felicia and countless other comic characters, they can with MJ.

[Frontier]

I normally think that giving Peter secret agent parents was a misstep; but at times like this I actually think that the secret agent parents explain something about Peter's psychology, namely that he comes from a family culture of believing that you protect people by keeping secrets and revealing them only on a Need to Know basis.

I mean, I think his family situation at the time - teenager going out and risking his life fighting crime while taking care of his ailing aunt - explains all that needs to be said about why he kept being Spider-Man close to the vest.

Especially when he was pretty anti-social at the start.

[Majesty]

I normally think that giving Peter secret agent parents was a misstep; but at times like this I actually think that the secret agent parents explain something about Peter's psychology, namely that he comes from a family culture of believing that you protect people by keeping secrets and revealing them only on a Need to Know basis.

I mean, I think his family situation at the time - teenager going out and risking his life fighting crime while taking care of his ailing aunt - explains all that needs to be said about why he kept being Spider-Man close to the vest.

Especially when he was pretty anti-social at the start.

The fallacy of Superhero identities is the idea that if you're constantly late, and keeping secrets for why that people will lose interest means they don't deserve you because it proves they won't be able to handle the stress of the Superheroing life is in an of itself a faulty plot point. Especially nowadays. If you're in a relationship with someone and they constantly ghost you and don't have a reason as to why but at the same time are saying they're "really" into you, 9 times out of 10 that relationship is gonna end before it even gets started. So its a lazy plot point for any Superhero that's been doing this for years as opposed to those just getting started. Peter for all intents and purposes should 'know better' by now.

You'd think that after doing it for years a superhero would be able to come up with a better story.

Peter for example works for Oscorp, it's very easy to say he's a manager or someone that is constantly on call and may have to leave to take care of things at a moments notice. Establish that right away so that it isn't taken personal, and then it becomes less about "He doesn't want to really spend time with me/is playing games." and more "his job really gets in the way sometimes". That's a more amicable situation, and yes, some situations may end because of that, but it would actually be being the real reason of 'job' getting in the way, as opposed to leaving the other party feel like you're constantly ghosting them.

But for lazy writing it's a plot point to do relationships or relationship teases for 2-3 issues and then abruptly end them which nowadays comes across as just a waste of time.

[Coop]

I feel like this version of Peter would've told MJ from the get-go, especially when it seemed like they discussed the thing with Teen Tony.



I think it's an issue with Hickman's pacing and more telling than showing, especially because the books jump from month-to-month in real time.

Also he still has his photographer job and so the hours seem as beneficial towards that as it did 616.

I don't have an issue with it all myself.

[Garlador]

spoilers:

What do I need heroes for? I've got you.

end of spoilers

If that lines's not teasing the possibility that she knows, I'm not sure what it's doing.

Fresh off Issue 4 and the first real deep-dive into this version of Mary Jane... and I'm supremely happy with it. MJ is grounded in a way she hasn't been in years, and it's showcasing proof positive that a marriage has done nothing to dull her wit, agency, and proactivity in pursing her own dreams and ambitions. She's a fascinating character with her own goals and motivations.

I know I harped on it earlier, but reading the One More Day interviews has some very dated takes, particularly the claims that the marriage made MJ a "wistful, soulless husk". Beyond disagreeing with that take - and, my brothers in writing, YOU wrote the COMICS - issue 4 of USM reminds me just how much that isn't a problem of the character, merely the imagination of the author. I am very invested in MJ's burgeoning relationship with the Osborns, how her career will factor into it, how it'll factor into JJJ and Ben's startup, and how all of it will factor into Peter's endeavors.

Welcome back, Mary Jane. I really did miss you.

[Frontier]

Cool, because I'm enjoying Jackpot so I'll talk about my enjoyment of that. You don't for your reasons and that's fine. But if people want to be immature and attack others for liking a comic they don't then that's their prerogative.

So you can move on, but I'll continue to talk about what I enjoy in a comic when it does something I enjoy, just as I'll critique something I don't but not hold anything against someone that it doesn't get to/bother as bad as it does me, cool?

For the record, it's never really too late to make someone care about a comic book character if you do the right things with him. Damian Wayne and Jason Todd are prime examples of that. It's just however that these things are made far in advanced so they can't just "change" a comic that already has a bunch of issues that are essentially done as far as the hard parts go before the second is even released. New writers can always change things up.

Celeste does far more with Paul than his creator ever has, and I appreciate that as well as MJ showing affection towards him. A constant I'll always have is if they wanted us to believe that MJ and Paul had a thing, there needs to be affection shown, real affection and acknowledged affection. Whether or not he's just a "transitional champion" is moot. Commit to it, roll with it, run with it. For however long it lasts. They've done it with Peter and they've done it with Felicia and countless other comic characters, they can with MJ.

I don't think you can quite compare Paul to Jason and Damian in terms of baggage but also because we were nitty gritty into their character development and changing as characters as well as how they became the way they were and why they changed. Paul, by comparison, is just kind of there with heavy, heavy baggage.

I don't think the amount of affection they show is going to make the actual nature of the relationship or how it started any more appealing. Especially when we haven't really been given clear reasons why MJ is with him or cares about him so much outside their time in another world and a montage.

The fallacy of Superhero identities is the idea that if you're constantly late, and keeping secrets for why that people will lose interest means they don't deserve you because it proves they won't be able to handle the stress of the Superheroing life is in an of itself a faulty plot point. Especially nowadays. If you're in a relationship with someone and they constantly ghost you and don't have a reason as to why but at the same time are saying they're "really" into you, 9 times out of 10 that relationship is gonna end before it even gets started. So its a lazy plot point for any Superhero that's been doing this for years as opposed to those just getting started. Peter for all intents and purposes should 'know better' by now.

You'd think that after doing it for years a superhero would be able to come up with a better story.

Peter for example works for Oscorp, it's very easy to say he's a manager or someone that is constantly on call and may have to leave to take care of things at a moments notice. Establish that right away so that it isn't taken personal, and then it becomes less about "He doesn't want to really spend time with me/is playing games." and more "his job really gets in the way sometimes". That's a more amicable situation, and yes, some situations may end because of that, but it would actually be being the real reason of 'job' getting in the way, as opposed to leaving the other party feel like you're constantly ghosting them.

But for lazy writing it's a plot point to do relationships or relationship teases for 2-3 issues and then abruptly end them which nowadays comes across as just a waste of time.

I don't think you need to be willy nilly revealing your identity to people when that should be a closely guarded secret and you don't intimately know someone. Family is a different story but family can also be complicated.

Also Peter currently has basically no job other than being Spider-Man, which I guess is how writers prefer him.

I don't have an issue with it all myself.

To me it just makes Spider-Man come off more like a novelty act than someone who is actually growing into as big a deal as they're discussing in the issue.

Actually now that I think about it I wonder if the Spider-Man aspect might be the weakest point of the book.

[Majesty]

I don't think you can quite compare Paul to Jason and Damian in terms of baggage but also because we were nitty gritty into their character development and changing as characters as well as how they became the way they were and why they changed. Paul, by comparison, is just kind of there with heavy, heavy baggage.

I don't think the amount of affection they show is going to make the actual nature of the relationship or how it started any more appealing. Especially when we haven't really been given clear reasons why MJ is with him or cares about him so much outside their time in another world and a montage.

See I guess that's where I'm different? I really don't care if things start bad or lacking, I care more where they end up. There's many comic book characters/relationships/storylines I came to love despite hating how they started, at times it started with a change of writer as well. So I really try not to dwell on past stuff and try to look at where stories are currently and what I think about them and their directions. Like I despise Jackpot with all my being and am not interested in anything she does to the point I just check in to recaps to see if she's done anything interesting or that I want to check out. The answer 99.9% of the time is no, and the 0.1% chance I do check it out, I wind up hating it despite trying to give it a chance. Does that mean I'll always dislike the character or be down on people that do? No. If she does something cool or her story/character becomes interesting, then I'll gladly give credit and check out the story and maybe become a fan if it continues in that direction. This is how I try to approach all comics as opposed to remaining hung up on past missteps or stuff I think could have been done tons better. It's healthier that way imho.

That said, I enjoyed Jackpot #2 a lot and that twist at the end legit surprised me. In a good way.

I don't think you need to be willy nilly revealing your identity to people when that should be a closely guarded secret and you don't intimately know someone. Family is a different story but family can also be complicated.

Also Peter currently has basically no job other than being Spider-Man, which I guess is how writers prefer him.

That's why I said

Peter for example works for Oscorp, it's very easy to say he's a manager or someone that is constantly on call and may have to leave to take care of things at a moments notice. Establish that right away so that it isn't taken personal, and then it becomes less about "He doesn't want to really spend time with me/is playing games." and more "his job really gets in the way sometimes". That's a more amicable situation, and yes, some situations may end because of that, but it would actually be being the real reason of 'job' getting in the way, as opposed to leaving the other party feel like you're constantly ghosting them.

It's not revealing his secret identity, but it's giving a much more feasible reason from the get go as opposed to saying nothing and constantly going "I ghost you for no reason and I'm really sorry". Which doesn't work in any relationship. If you've been doing it for years you have a concrete excuse outside of "oops". Is what I'm saying.

To me it just makes Spider-Man come off more like a novelty act than someone who is actually growing into as big a deal as they're discussing in the issue.

Actually now that I think about it I wonder if the Spider-Man aspect might be the weakest point of the book.

Agreed. People will give it a lot of leeway simply because MJ and Peter are back together in it and married. But for people that are so critical of the "being Spider-Man" part of the main continuity, I'd think they'd be a little more critical of the "Spider-Man" part in USM being kind of underwhelming. However it's still early on of course! The rest of the comic is fine imo.

[Frontier]

See I guess that's where I'm different? I really don't care if things start bad or lacking, I care more where they end up. There's many comic book characters/relationships/storylines I came to love despite hating how they started, at times it started with a change of writer as well. So I really try not to dwell on past stuff and try to look at where stories are currently and what I think about them and their directions. Like I despise Jackpot with all my being and am not interested in anything she does to the point I just check in to recaps to see if she's done anything interesting or that I want to check out. The answer 99.9% of the time is no, and the 0.1% chance I do check it out, I wind up hating it despite trying to give it a chance. Does that mean I'll always dislike the character or be down on people that do? No. If she does something cool or her story/character becomes interesting, then I'll gladly give credit and check out the story and maybe become a fan if it continues in that direction. This is how I try to approach all comics as opposed to remaining hung up on past missteps or stuff I think could have been done tons better. It's healthier that way imho.

That said, I enjoyed Jackpot #2 a lot and that twist at the end legit surprised me. In a good way.

For me the endgoal doesn't matter if A. the endgoal seems of ill-intent and B. the execution isn't there to make it work and I feel like the relationship with Paul (and equally MJ as Jackpot) hit both. Like, the way they wrote it and how the story treated Peter and MJ, why should I care about the relationship or MJ being with this guy especially when the relationship hasn't been consistently written well? I'm a fan of relationships but not like this.

I do think the twist with Obscura was interesting and I hope Bronfman can actually do something with it.

It's not revealing his secret identity, but it's giving a much more feasible reason from the get go as opposed to saying nothing and constantly going "I ghost you for no reason and I'm really sorry". Which doesn't work in any relationship. If you've been doing it for years you have a concrete excuse outside of "oops". Is what I'm saying.

Well, this is Wells' Peter we're currently dealing with .

Agreed. People will give it a lot of leeway simply because MJ and Peter are back together in it and married. But for people that are so critical of the "being Spider-Man" part of the main continuity, I'd think they'd be a little more critical of the "Spider-Man" part in USM being kind of underwhelming. However it's still early on of course! The rest of the comic is fine imo.

I at least feel like the character-work and actual characterization are pretty on-point and the relationship stuff is good and feels genuine.

[Coop]

To me it just makes Spider-Man come off more like a novelty act than someone who is actually growing into as big a deal as they're discussing in the issue.

Actually now that I think about it I wonder if the Spider-Man aspect might be the weakest point of the book.

Can't really say I agree with you at all there. I think the book is pretty clearly setting a trajectory of Peter not really understanding fully the depths of the world's corruption and how he will be learning about it. I read the entire run and I don't feel at all like Spider-Man is a novelty to Peter. I feel like he's focused on ground level friendly neighborhood activities and the reality of the problems in the world will become apparent to him. The book imo is very clearly laying that groundwork.

I also think the Spider-Man stuff is very good. Peter's stakeout and interactions with Shocker and Bullseye were all highly enjoyable to me.

Agreed. People will give it a lot of leeway simply because MJ and Peter are back together in it and married. But for people that are so critical of the "being Spider-Man" part of the main continuity, I'd think they'd be a little more critical of the "Spider-Man" part in USM being kind of underwhelming. However it's still early on of course! The rest of the comic is fine imo.

I think it's really as simple as people tremendously enjoying the book. You may find the Spider-Man stuff underwhelming, but I couldn't disagree more and certainly don't agree that it's of the same quality as the stuff we've got from the main book.

Perhaps you'll just write my opinion off as being a marriage fan, and you gotta do you. I think it's probably more accurate to just accept that different people feel differently about things without trying to create excuses or justifications to explain it because you don't agree.

I don't really agree most of your opinions about Paul, MJ, or Peter. But I simply believe you enjoyed something I didn't and don't really assign a bias or ulterior motive to that.

[TinkerSpider]

Can't really say I agree with you at all there. I think the book is pretty clearly setting a trajectory of Peter not really understanding fully the depths of the world's corruption and how he will be learning about it. I read the entire run and I don't feel at all like Spider-Man is a novelty to Peter. I feel like he's focused on ground level friendly neighborhood activities and the reality of the problems in the world will become apparent to him. The book imo is very clearly laying that groundwork.

Gotta agree with you.

I do understand people wanting more "Spider-Manning" in a book entitled "Spider-Man" but I think Hickman is playing the long game here - maybe too long for some and that's okay! - but I am so happy to have a comic that makes me think and care about the world it's building and wants to establish its characters and line up them up on the chessboard first before the Big Grand Game starts - probably when Teen Tony comes back and the second arc for this book - that I'm ecstatic as a reader. I adore being treated as if I can think. I was just talking to a friend about how much fun it is to have a book that you can speculate about and come up with theories and pull in your knowledge of world history and political systems and human nature. Certainly can't do that with the current run of ASM, where the guiding narrative principle appears to be 4 minus kookaburra multiplied by water equals green sky divided by Liechtenstein.

I also think it will read a lot smoother when collected into omnibus with the other Ultimate titles and all the threads can be seen coming together to make the tapestry, but such is the life of reading month to month!

I also think the Spider-Man stuff is very good. Peter's stakeout and interactions with Shocker and Bullseye were all highly enjoyable to me.

Best Spider-Man characterization in a long time! He was actually clever in the Bullseye confrontation. Whodathunk. And it sounds like we'll be getting more in upcoming issues.

Perhaps you'll just write my opinion off as being a marriage fan, and you gotta do you. I think it's probably more accurate to just accept that different people feel differently about things without trying to create excuses or justifications to explain it because you don't agree.

Co-signed.