Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2024.

[Mercwmouth12]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

She took down a bunch of Kraven henchmen and even took out a Venom brute. So could do a lot without powers

[Garlador]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

“Peter’s only value is if he’s in a relationship with MJ or not.”

It’s ridiculous when you turn it around like that. She’s the Lois Lane to his Clark Kent, the woman he married, and his ride-or-die for the majority of her relationship with him. She’s “his heart” and the primary force pushing him forward in life as an adult and a hero.

[Kevinroc]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

Do you hate MJ or something? I don't really understand why you would post something like that in this thread.

[Xix25]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

Can say this for a lot of Spidey's supporting cast of allies and enemies. It's a weird thing to point out IMO.

[Celgress]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

Yeah, it is so odd most fans seemingly want MJ and Peter together as life partners. It is almost like she was invented and then over decades built up to be one of his primary love interests arguably his most important love interest, weird.

[Agent Z]

When I started reading Spider-man titles a problem he had was that there was almost no one to turn to for help since he had no friends with powers. Even Felicia was far from a sure bet. He had the Fantastic four but that was mostly for Venom related stories.

Now IÂ’m just waiting for Aunt May or Jonah to get powers.

That's a source of dramatic tension. It's the kind of thing writers and audiences should want in stories.

When I got into comics, Spider-Man had a network of allies that included Silver Sable, the Puma, the Prowler and the Black Cat. That's not even getting into his frequent team ups with Daredevil, Dr. Strange, the X-Men, the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.

He had all of this and still had a decent amount of civilians in his supporting cast.

[Spider-Tiger]

lol Mj only value is if shes in a relationship with Peter or not

I do feel like there's a general correlation between eras where MJ isn't the main love interest and writers don't seem to know what to do with her which leads to some really weak writing.

It might seem counterintuitive, but MJ has actually been written with a lot more nuance, agency, and depth when she's allowed to be a love interest. You don't see writing on par with Kravens Last Hunt or the Sensational Spider-man annual for MJ when the character is divorced from Spider-man. What you end up with is stuff like Jackpot where MJ loses her distinctive psychology, narrative arc, and voice. Some characters thrive in supporting roles. MJ is historically one of them.

[Garlador]

It might seem counterintuitive, but MJ has actually been written with a lot more nuance, agency, and depth when she's allowed to be a love interest. You don't see writing on par with Kravens Last Hunt or the Sensational Spider-man annual for MJ when the character is divorced from Spider-man. What you end up with is stuff like Jackpot where MJ loses her distinctive psychology, narrative arc, and voice. Some characters thrive in supporting roles. MJ is historically one of them.

Stan Lee once said MJ was his favorite non-superpowered character he ever wrote for (her and Willie Lumpkin, “but I’m biased because I actually played Willie in the Fantastic Four movie”). She’s the only civilian who ranked on CBR’s “top 50 Marvel Characters” poll last year.

Her being a “supporting” character is not an insult. She was CREATED to be a supporting character, just like Lois Lane or Alfred or other iconic supporting characters.

And you’re 100% correct that she thrives in that role. “Everything is easier when you’re here and harder when you’re not. Without you, nothing works the way it should.”

So, absolutely, I have never once - not ONCE - seen her written as well removed from Peter as I have when her character is with him. 99% of her growth is tied to him intrinsically, and without that relationship “nothing works the way it should.”

[Kevinroc]

MJ has always been the fan favorite love interest. Even before she even officially became the love interest and she was just a comedic side character. She was more popular than Gwen, the intended love interest.

Even if Gwen hadn't been shoved off that bridge, I'm sure someone would have broken her and Peter up and had him date MJ.

So going against that grain is always going to be a tough thing.

And this is without getting into the whole "illusion of change" element of comics which means MJ has to be nearby so she and Peter can get back together at a moment's notice.

From my perspective, and only my perspective, I don't really see the point of separating them. I get the idea of "Peter being Spider-Man costs him his regular life." But then we end up with yet another "Peter and MJ have broken up and get back together again" story and I've seen enough of those to last me a lifetime. Introducing a new temporary love interest is boring to me. The audience isn't going to care about this character, nor will they care about Peter's relationship with this character. And, most importantly of all, Peter isn't going to care about this character (outside of the way Peter cares about everyone because he's like that). And if Peter doesn't care, the audience isn't going to care either. Even the Black Cat got this "who cares" treatment and she's supposed to be the next big love interest in this franchise (since 616 Gwen is still dead).

As for MJ as a superhero, I never saw that as a permanent thing. I saw that as an attempt to do a Silver Age Superman story where Lois (or Lana or Jimmy) would get powers for an issue before returning to the regular status quo. The illusion of change means MJ can't change that much either. I get why people hate it, though. Because it was built on stories that pulled MJ away from Peter, which is not where people want her. She's a Spider-Man supporting character known as the hero's love interest. Putting her in a role that pulls her away from that is an exceptionally tough sell. And this is without getting into discussions about the illusion of change or the value of civilian supporting characters in comics.

(I'm not saying I don't want conflict and drama in the relationship, because of course I do. But the way it has been handled haven't really done a good job of that. And the current situation is far too convoluted for its own good. I don't think I could explain why they're currently broken up.)

Edit: What I'm trying to say is even though I don't like the current situation with Peter and MJ, and don't really care about Jackpot (even though I am much kinder to it than other people in the fandom), I think the Spider-Man fandom by and large is too negative even though I do understand it.

[Malachi]

Stan Lee once said MJ was his favorite non-superpowered character he ever wrote for (her and Willie Lumpkin, “but I’m biased because I actually played Willie in the Fantastic Four movie”). She’s the only civilian who ranked on CBR’s “top 50 Marvel Characters” poll last year.

Her being a “supporting” character is not an insult. She was CREATED to be a supporting character, just like Lois Lane or Alfred or other iconic supporting characters.

And you’re 100% correct that she thrives in that role. “Everything is easier when you’re here and harder when you’re not. Without you, nothing works the way it should.”

So, absolutely, I have never once - not ONCE - seen her written as well removed from Peter as I have when her character is with him. 99% of her growth is tied to him intrinsically, and without that relationship “nothing works the way it should.”

That's the beauty of it. MJ and Peter got written so well, sometimes it seems by accident or against Marvel's wishes, that they became much better and interesting characters when they are together. It just feels like they fullfill those needs and desires form each other so well that why should they go look elsewhere for them? All of MJ's friends/lovers will always be compared to Peter and they will fall short. Marvel can't have them be better then Peter because that would be sabotaging their own title. I think that at the end of the day it's because at heart they are still those lonely kids. Peter who lost his parents and was an outcast at school. MJ with her abusive father and distand mother was more or less without parents too. She could fake populairty but it gave her nothing better then a place to hide.

[Garlador]

That's the beauty of it. MJ and Peter got written so well, sometimes it seems by accident or against Marvel's wishes, that they became much better and interesting characters when they are together. It just feels like they fullfill those needs and desires form each other so well that why should they go look elsewhere for them? All of MJ's friends/lovers will always be compared to Peter and they will fall short. Marvel can't have them be better then Peter because that would be sabotaging their own title. I think that at the end of the day it's because at heart they are still those lonely kids. Peter who lost his parents and was an outcast at school. MJ with her abusive father and distand mother was more or less without parents too. She could fake populairty but it gave her nothing better then a place to hide.

Well put.

And more specifically, splitting them up robs MJ of some of the most important growth she ever experienced. Her demons and abusive past is what held her back from committing to Peter, and once she confronted those demons and moved beyond her insecurities and fears was she allowed to mature and find happiness, growth, love, and support with a man who respected and loved her unconditionally.

Erasing that commitment erases her very character arc. It’s no wonder so many writers - including Slott here - have mentioned she’s difficult to write for if you know the majority of her character growth is tied to a marriage that editorial insists can’t/shouldn’t happen. She’s too beloved to kill off, too important to write out, and has too much history with Peter (and readers) to ignore, so she overshadows literally any other prospective love interest (for good reason). You could introduce a new girl tomorrow and she’d have to become as interesting as MJ’s half-century of growth to stand a chance (MJ apparently is also the supporting character with the most appearances in Spider-Man books, more than JJJ, Aunt May, Harry, Norman, etc.). And even if some random new girl stuck around for 50 years, MJ still has that half-century headstart and entrenched acceptance in countless other media (games, movies, cartoons, etc.)

Marvel has the best love interest in comics… and stubbornly keeps insisting she should be anything BUT that.

[Digifiend]

I think the reception to Wells' run and USM are both game changers. I mean, based on how much Marvel lost control of the narrative with these two books, I don't know if the handful of pro-OMD editors left still have plausible deniability like they did in 2008-2018.

They'll have to justify to investors and other higher-ups why it's okay for ASM to clearly leave money on the table, especially after the PR nightmare that was Kamala's death. I don't know if a sound justification for that is possible anymore. Not to mention that retailers will be pressuring Marvel for more Peter/MJ content after USM.

I could be wrong about this. But if there's really only 2-3 guys holding Peter and MJ apart at this point, I just don't see the company as a whole not at least returning to Spencer's status quo. Those guys aren't the heads of the company. Even Brevoort has a boss who reassigned him. (Also if everything was rosy behind the scenes, Lowe and Cebulski wouldn't seem as upset/angry with fans as they have recently seemed).

Yeah, but now she's with the X-Men so people have kind of moved on already (whether or not you have an actual opinion about her being with the X-Men).

Kamala didn't need to die to find out she's a mutant. Could've just had her powers start fritzing like they've been doing in her current Mutant Menace mini. She goes to someone (say, Mr. Fantastic) to find out what's wrong, and discovers she's a mutant. At the same time Emma Frost realises, prompting Cyclops to bring her in to the X-Men and invite her to the Hellfire Gala. This would happen in a Ms. Marvel Annual published instead of Fallen Friend. Everything else then proceeds as we saw, including Norman and Peter realising Kamala is Ms. Marvel when she takes part in the ASM #26 battle (it's only her death scene that wouldn't happen there - the issue would probably still get flak for killing off MJ's kids!).

[Kevinroc]

Kamala didn't need to die to find out she's a mutant. Could've just had her powers start fritzing like they've been doing in her current Mutant Menace mini. She goes to someone (say, Mr. Fantastic) to find out what's wrong, and discovers she's a mutant. At the same time Emma Frost realises, prompting Cyclops to bring her in to the X-Men and invite her to the Hellfire Gala. This would happen in a Ms. Marvel Annual published instead of Fallen Friend. Everything else then proceeds as we saw, including Norman and Peter realising Kamala is Ms. Marvel when she takes part in the ASM #26 battle (it's only her death scene that wouldn't happen there - the issue would probably still get flak for killing off MJ's kids!).

Nobody liked those kids, lol. There's a popular meme with Michael Jordan that reads "(expletive deleted) them kids." That's how people felt about the girl and the other one.

[SturdyMike89]

This is why from a story standpoint Marvel has struggled with Spider-Man post OMD. Peter cannot be married, or it diminishes him being a cool relatable character the audience can relate to. Because people (in Marvel's mind) are blathering idiot's things must be kept simple for any fans of the movies or tv shows that show Peter just staring out because anything not like that will confuse and enrage them. But Mary Jane is as cooked into the franchise as Aunt May, Uncle Ben, or the Osbournes. If she is not there it becomes noticeable and weird. So, they have to keep her close to the franchise but not have her get back together long term with Peter to diminishing returns each and every time. And when some media production actually shows Peter and MJ happily together or even married with kids, it makes the gap that exists between them all the more noticable.

[Knightsilver]

This is why from a story standpoint Marvel has struggled with Spider-Man post OMD. Peter cannot be married, or it diminishes him being a cool relatable character the audience can relate to. Because people (in Marvel's mind) are blathering idiot's things must be kept simple for any fans of the movies or tv shows that show Peter just staring out because anything not like that will confuse and enrage them. But Mary Jane is as cooked into the franchise as Aunt May, Uncle Ben, or the Osbournes. If she is not there it becomes noticeable and weird. So, they have to keep her close to the franchise but not have her get back together long term with Peter to diminishing returns each and every time. And when some media production actually shows Peter and MJ happily together or even married with kids, it makes the gap that exists between them all the more noticable.

The irony of it is...is that if someone were to come off of the games and movies and pick up ASM...they'd wonder why Peter isn't with MJ...and is a total loser. ASM is really off brand from where the rest of the franchise is nowadays.