Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing/Batman Appreciation 2024.

[Pohzee]

The Court of Owls I would say even though it's not really a singular character. Some of the Morrison DickBats villains have stuck around like Dr. Hurt and Professor Pyg.

[Drako]

The Court of Owls I would say even though it's not really a singular character. Some of the Morrison DickBats villains have stuck around like Dr. Hurt and Professor Pyg.

Dr. Hurt is not really a DickBats villain, he is a character from the 60s that Morrison made into a Batman villain for Batman RIP.
Professor Pyg and Flamingo are still around, tho.

[Badou]

I don't think there should be one, Deathstroke is just one powerlevel above what any Batfamily member (including Batman himself) should be able to go up against solo.

He is supposed to a be a villain who is able to go up against an entire team of Titans.

I disagree. I feel like he should have a great Deathstroke story given their history. Now not every story has to be about a character beating up a villain just so you can say they are stronger than that villain. The story can involve them having to team up, both trying to achieve a goal first, or have them battle over an ideal. It all comes down to how skilled the writer is. Being able to write a story where a weaker positioned character defeats a stronger one is common but making it feel satisfying is the challenging part.

For example the Nightwing Renegade story, which wasn't very good unfortunately, had the central idea of Dick training Rose and trying to show her that Deathstroke's path is wrong. Her choosing to side with Nightwing as a hero over Deathstroke would be the ideal conclusion to the story. Where Nightwing "defeats" Deathstroke by having Rose realize that. That is a way to have him beat Deathstroke without physically beating him up. There are a lot of different things you can do in the same vein if you want.

Dark Crisis wasnt that long ago. Is it time for for another climatic fight scene, thats all were gonna get from him. Show up nerf the titans then fight Dick. I fell for the Deathstroke/Slade hype when I was younger and I've read the solos there nothing there. He'd be better off as the dragon for someone else which at his best he has been

Then pick a different top tier villain and write a story with them first and try a Deathstroke one again down the line. DC just shouldn't stop taking big swings, imo. Though I don't think the Nightwing solo book has had a Deathstroke story in nearly 20 years. So I don't mind another one. Dick is usually written pretty terribly in the Titans so I don't put a ton of value in those stories the past 30+ years where Deathstroke has shown up there.

With Dark Crisis it was kind of a mess. It was obvious they had different plans with 5G originally and all the management and editorial issues didn't help. Dark Crisis to me felt like the kind of story where you needed like two years of Nightwing and Deathstroke being written in parallel with Dark Crisis being this big conclusion. Instead it was this event that felt thrown together very quickly with no real foundation and tried to sell itself with some iconography of the 80s NTT era, which looked really nice with Sampere's art, but Dick and Deathstroke have barely interacted since the New 52 reboot so it didn't feel earned I guess.

[Badou]

Very good point. People often mention Damian on DC's side as the only new character created in 21st century who really took off. Do we have any new villains that really connected with people? Batman Who Laughs supposedly moved units, but he was built entirely around crossover events. I remember thinking that Atrocitus was next big thing and he felt like it for a while, but he has been pretty much forgotten last few years.

I'm trying to think of characters that at least got their first solo book run since the 90s and has any of them developed a good rogues gallery? Deadpool, Gambit, Cable, Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon, Cass Cain, Stephanie Brown, Static, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, X-23, Damian, Superboy, Supergirl, Impulse, Wonder Girl, Jonah Hex, Spider-Woman, Starman, Hellblazer/Constantine, Ghost Rider, Spider-Girl, Black Widow, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and I'm probably forgetting many obvious ones. But do any of these characters have what you'd call a good rogues gallery? One that is any better that Nightwing's? Maybe a few of them depending on what you like. I just don't know if you can create a rogues gallery the way people want with how comics are now.

[Rac7d*]

Then pick a different top tier villain and write a story with them first and try a Deathstroke one again down the line. DC just shouldn't stop taking big swings, imo. Though I don't think the Nightwing solo book has had a Deathstroke story in nearly 20 years. So I don't mind another one. Dick is usually written pretty terribly in the Titans so I don't put a ton of value in those stories the past 30+ years where Deathstroke has shown up there.

With Dark Crisis it was kind of a mess. It was obvious they had different plans with 5G originally and all the management and editorial issues didn't help. Dark Crisis to me felt like the kind of story where you needed like two years of Nightwing and Deathstroke being written in parallel with Dark Crisis being this big conclusion. Instead it was this event that felt thrown together very quickly with no real foundation and tried to sell itself with some iconography of the 80s NTT era, which looked really nice with Sampere's art, but Dick and Deathstroke have barely interacted since the New 52 reboot so it didn't feel earned I guess.

Hes been fighting Superman, Batman, WonderWoman and Damian the last 15 years. Also picking up from where we left him off why would be dealing with dick? Before he got possessed he was trying to kill Talia who killed him and his son respawn died. if anything he'll reload into a future into a future arc Batman and Robin arc.

let me bookmark this cuz im actually pretty convinced of that

[Badou]

Hes been fighting Superman, Batman, WonderWoman and Damian the last 15 years. Also picking up from where we left him off why would be dealing with dick? Before he got possessed he was trying to kill Talia who killed him and his son respawn died. if anything he'll reload into a future into a future arc Batman and Robin arc.

let me bookmark this cuz im actually pretty convinced of that

To do a story like Dark Crisis properly where it hinges on Dick fighting Deathstroke as the main conflict you needed the two to have more of a lead in given they have barely interacted since the New 52 reboot. The story basically was trying to use their history from the New Teen Titans to sell their conflict, but that was 40 years ago. Because the two have barely interacted in so long it had to go all the way back to those old stories because there was nothing else to sell their conflict. Which is my core point. There is no great contemporary Nightwing/Deathstroke story which prevents stories like a Dark Crisis from having the punch they actually need to work I feel like.

The only reason Deathstroke had any cause to be in a story with Damian was because Priest was obsessed with linking the two together. Before that the two had basically zero connection. Why can't a Nightwing writer do that for Nightwing and write a detailed Deathstroke story? That would have more impact than constantly complaining about Dick's rogues gallery, imo.

[Godlike13]

Trouble with new villains is generally there is a beginning and end to their introduction. So they have to wait before they can use them again. Take Heartless for example, eventually there is going to be a conclusion to this battle between him and Nightwing. They can't exactly then just follow that up with them fighting again for the next arc.

[Aahz]

I disagree. I feel like he should have a great Deathstroke story given their history. Now not every story has to be about a character beating up a villain just so you can say they are stronger than that villain. The story can involve them having to team up, both trying to achieve a goal first, or have them battle over an ideal. It all comes down to how skilled the writer is. Being able to write a story where a weaker positioned character defeats a stronger one is common but making it feel satisfying is the challenging part.

For example the Nightwing Renegade story, which wasn't very good unfortunately, had the central idea of Dick training Rose and trying to show her that Deathstroke's path is wrong. Her choosing to side with Nightwing as a hero over Deathstroke would be the ideal conclusion to the story. Where Nightwing "defeats" Deathstroke by having Rose realize that. That is a way to have him beat Deathstroke without physically beating him up. There are a lot of different things you can do in the same vein if you want.

The problem here is that Nightwing is not really bringing anything to a team up that Deathstroke would need. If it was team up between Deathstroke at the entire team of Titans that would be different story.

The whole Renegade Story falls for me already apart with the premise. There was imo simply no good reason why Deathstroke would need Nightwing to train Rose, he can pretty much teach her all Nightwing could teach her on his own, or hire some other villain to train her.

And the thing is that Deathstroke is not only supposed to be physically powerfull, he has also an enhanced intellect. Imo you simply can't have story where Nightwing (or Batman, or any other Batfamily member) goes up against Deathstroke, without massively nerfing Deathstroke.

[Badou]

The problem here is that Nightwing is not really bringing anything to a team up that Deathstroke would need. If it was team up between Deathstroke at the entire team of Titans that would be different story.

The whole Renegade Story falls for me already apart with the premise. There was imo simply no good reason why Deathstroke would need Nightwing to train Rose, he can pretty much teach her all Nightwing could teach her on his own, or hire some other villain to train her.

And the thing is that Deathstroke is not only supposed to be physically powerfull, he has also an enhanced intellect. Imo you simply can't have story where Nightwing (or Batman, or any other Batfamily member) goes up against Deathstroke, without massively nerfing Deathstroke.

If Deathstroke is completely infallible then that makes him a bad character. Good storytelling is coming up with a reason why that isn't the case and have it be satisfying.

And I don't think the Renegade story was good, but the idea behind it I think is completely fine. Where it is Dick saving Rose from becoming a villain. Since it wasn't about just training Rose to punch or kick better. Building a story around that is more than reasonable as Dick arguably is more experience in saving characters from their darker impulses than most DC characters.

[Godlike13]

Ya, Deathstroke wanting Dick to train Rose has nothing to do with wanting him to teach her fighting techniques. And Nightwing and the Bat family goes up against superhumans all the time. Being outmatched is often the entire point of the challenge of a villain. It just gets silly when their plan to beat him comes down to a fist fight. The Renegade story wasn't good, but it got some things right. Dick beat Deathstroke without having to physically beat him.

[Drako]

And then Deathstroke had the Secret Society nuke his city. There's too much bad blood between them for DC not to explore further.

[Aahz]

If Deathstroke is completely infallible then that makes him a bad character.

He doesn't need to be infallible to know that Dick would never go along with any of his plans without trying to prevent it somehow.

And Nightwing and the Bat family goes up against superhumans all the time.

All the time is kind of stretch for the most part they only do that if they are part of team like the Titans of Justice League.
And Deathstroke has also shown that he can go up against superhumans and win, including going up against Titans and Justice League (even if that didn't make much sense ...).

And the thing Deathstroke was iirc running Secret Society at the time, which would giving him for one access to more than enough competent people to provide Rose training in basically everything. And that made it even dumber that he let Dick anywhere close to him, since that would give Dick potentially also the option to interfere with his plans with the Secret Society.
I don't remember the Renegade Story all that well, but from what I remember the most logical (and in character thing) for Deathstroke to do in that Story would have been to just kill Dick to have him out of the way.

[signalman112]

Dick needs a modern version of the CLOCK.

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[marhawkman]

DCAU had a version of Tempus Fugit who was a pretty difficult guy to fight.

[K7P5V]

DCAU had a version of Tempus Fugit who was a pretty difficult guy to fight.

I know, right?! All things considered, one of my All-Time Favorite episodes (LOL):