Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing/Batman Appreciation 2024.

[Godlike13]

He doesn't need to be infallible to know that Dick would never go along with any of his plans without trying to prevent it somehow.

All the time is kind of stretch for the most part they only do that if they are part of team like the Titans of Justice League.
And Deathstroke has also shown that he can go up against superhumans and win, including going up against Titans and Justice League (even if that didn't make much sense ...).

And the thing Deathstroke was iirc running Secret Society at the time, which would giving him for one access to more than enough competent people to provide Rose training in basically everything. And that made it even dumber that he let Dick anywhere close to him, since that would give Dick potentially also the option to interfere with his plans with the Secret Society.
I don't remember the Renegade Story all that well, but from what I remember the most logical (and in character thing) for Deathstroke to do in that Story would have been to just kill Dick to have him out of the way.

It’s not even a little bit of a stretch, its all the time. Huge chuck of Batman’s rogue gallery are superhuman. Nightwing’s current foe is superhuman. And Deathstroke isn’t looking for a supervillain to teach his children anything. You’re missing the point there. Also with Renegade iifc it was an attempt to manipulate Dick who was in a venerable state. What’s more you can’t just kill Dick and keep your secret society secret. Additionally Deathstroke was introduced earlier in the run and there relationship wasn’t quite as adversarial at the time until he convinced Rose to get away.

[Rac7d*]

To do a story like Dark Crisis properly where it hinges on Dick fighting Deathstroke as the main conflict you needed the two to have more of a lead in given they have barely interacted since the New 52 reboot. The story basically was trying to use their history from the New Teen Titans to sell their conflict, but that was 40 years ago. Because the two have barely interacted in so long it had to go all the way back to those old stories because there was nothing else to sell their conflict. Which is my core point. There is no great contemporary Nightwing/Deathstroke story which prevents stories like a Dark Crisis from having the punch they actually need to work I feel like.

The only reason Deathstroke had any cause to be in a story with Damian was because Priest was obsessed with linking the two together. Before that the two had basically zero connection. Why can't a Nightwing writer do that for Nightwing and write a detailed Deathstroke story? That would have more impact than constantly complaining about Dick's rogues gallery, imo.

Or option C villains from Nightwing runs could be reoccurring reworked and reused. Dived into and better developed and thus become formidable rouges that the audience wants to see again. Deathstroke became the true breakout character of the Titans franchise. Every couple of years he has his own book to lead, I was actually surprised during Deathstroke tour of fighting DC characters in his book he they didn’t do a Nightwing issue but we did get vs redhood issue. Also dick fighting deathstroke wasn’t the main conflict, I would call it the main attraction because it would resonates the most with readership despite it not really being Slade at that point but a puppet for what is the true antagonist. People wanted to see Nightwing taught Slade and they got just that technically.

You cant put it just on Priest. DC pushed the Damian deathstroke tension for years.

[Aahz]

Huge chuck of Batman’s rogue gallery are superhuman.

But not the ones he most frequently goes up against, and most of the one's that are are likely less powerfull than Deathstroke.

Nightwing’s current foe is superhuman.

Heartless? Again likely at best at the level of Deathstroke and likely below that.

And Nightwing fought his sofar iirc once and wasn't able to take him down.

[Godlike13]

Or option C villains from Nightwing runs could be reoccurring reworked and reused. Dived into and better developed and thus become formidable rouges that the audience wants to see again. Deathstroke became the true breakout character of the Titans franchise. Every couple of years he has his own book to lead, I was actually surprised during Deathstroke tour of fighting DC characters in his book he they didn’t do a Nightwing issue but we did get vs redhood issue. Also dick fighting deathstroke wasn’t the main conflict, I would call it the main attraction because it would resonates the most with readership despite it not really being Slade at that point but a puppet for what is the true antagonist. People wanted to see Nightwing taught Slade and they got just that technically.

You cant put it just on Priest. DC pushed the Damian deathstroke tension for years.

Comics are like wrestling in many ways. Can’t forget they are trying to sell these fictional fights. Sure they can try to build up an old villain people forgot about, but there is always going to be an advantage to using already established villains that people already recognize. It’s an inherently bigger card.

[Godlike13]

But not the ones he most frequently goes up against, and most of the one's that are are likely less powerfull than Deathstroke.

Heartless? Again likely at best at the level of Deathstroke and likely below that.

And Nightwing fought his sofar iirc once and wasn't able to take him down.

They're as frequent as any of the others except for maybe the Joker. And ya Nightwing hasn't taken heartless down, yet. But they are getting there. There entire point of villains are to present a challenge for the heroes. They're not always suppose to be evenly matched. Thats the mountain for the heroes to climb.

[Rac7d*]

Comics are like wrestling in many ways. Can’t forget they are trying to sell these fictional fights. Sure they can try to build up an old villain people forgot about, but there is always going to be an advantage to using already established villains that people already recognize. It’s an inherently bigger card.

The WWE didnt die when the rock left for acting new players emerged . If anything this analogy makes me feel like Deathstroke is one of the Paul brother since all their matches exibition stunt matches. Which i understand draws alot of eyes to the show. But its weird when they also cant decide if they want to do the antihero thing then flip the switch every few years.

[Badou]

Or option C villains from Nightwing runs could be reoccurring reworked and reused. Dived into and better developed and thus become formidable rouges that the audience wants to see again. Deathstroke became the true breakout character of the Titans franchise. Every couple of years he has his own book to lead, I was actually surprised during Deathstroke tour of fighting DC characters in his book he they didn’t do a Nightwing issue but we did get vs redhood issue. Also dick fighting deathstroke wasn’t the main conflict, I would call it the main attraction because it would resonates the most with readership despite it not really being Slade at that point but a puppet for what is the true antagonist. People wanted to see Nightwing taught Slade and they got just that technically.

This goes back to my original point. I don't think any of those lower tier villains will amount to anything no matter how many times you reuse them. A Blockbuster has been reused countless times in Nightwing and he isn't any bigger than he was compared to his original appearance in the book. In my post a few posts back I listed off all those characters that have had solo series since the 90s and none of them in that time have developed a notable rogues gallery. Just like Nightwing. So I don't think it is possible to create a rogues gallery the way people want in modern comics.

All top tier villains were either grandfathered in from an era where comics had a lot more influence and were more widespread. That includes a Deathstroke who was created in the 80s back when NTT was selling as much as any comics and competing with the X-Men, or new top tier villains now are funneled through a very few "main" comics that have been around since the Golden/Silver/Bronze ages like a Batman, Superman, Justice League, Spider-man, and so on. No other solo books outside those top ones have really produced any real top tier villains. So expecting a random Nightwing villain to suddenly jump up into being this super notable villain doesn't seem feasible when there aren't any examples of it happening.

Deadpool is the biggest solo character that has gotten their own solo series since the 90s, basically since Nightwing got his own solo book, and despite Deadpool's books being very successful none of those books have created any villains you'd put on the same level as the top ones from the Big 2. So I'd just focus on trying to take big swings with already established big villains regardless of the franchise they are from until you get a story with one of them that is a success. Since if the story is good no one will care where the villain is from. Sure, you can still use new original villains here and there but then you can't complain about Nightwing's rogues gallery at the same time.

You cant put it just on Priest. DC pushed the Damian deathstroke tension for years.

I don't remember them pushing it in the comics until Priest, and Priest went super obsessive with it. Like obsessed with making Damian's Slade's son for some bizarre reason.

[Godlike13]

I don't remember them pushing it in the comics until Priest, and Priest went super obsessive with it. Like obsessed with making Damian's Slade's son for some bizarre reason.

Damian made him uncomfortable, and it bothered him that Batman, his father, was more or less leaving him out in the cold at the time. It evolved from there.

[Rac7d*]

Damian made him uncomfortable, and it bothered him that Batman, his father, was more or less leaving him out in the cold at the time. It evolved from there.

It was consistent the two kept facing off with one another. Since his first solo both his team books In animated films. This all went on consecutively up to his I quit robin moment. Enter Williamson who follows it up by including his friendship with rose and now half brother from Slade.

[Rac7d*]

This goes back to my original point. I don't think any of those lower tier villains will amount to anything no matter how many times you reuse them. A Blockbuster has been reused countless times in Nightwing and he isn't any bigger than he was compared to his original appearance in the book. In my post a few posts back I listed off all those characters that have had solo series since the 90s and none of them in that time have developed a notable rogues gallery. Just like Nightwing. So I don't think it is possible to create a rogues gallery the way people want in modern comics.

All top tier villains were either grandfathered in from an era where comics had a lot more influence and were more widespread. That includes a Deathstroke who was created in the 80s back when NTT was selling as much as any comics and competing with the X-Men, or new top tier villains now are funneled through a very few "main" comics that have been around since the Golden/Silver/Bronze ages like a Batman, Superman, Justice League, Spider-man, and so on. No other solo books outside those top ones have really produced any real top tier villains. So expecting a random Nightwing villain to suddenly jump up into being this super notable villain doesn't seem feasible when there aren't any examples of it happening.

Deadpool is the biggest solo character that has gotten their own solo series since the 90s, basically since Nightwing got his own solo book, and despite Deadpool's books being very successful none of those books have created any villains you'd put on the same level as the top ones from the Big 2. So I'd just focus on trying to take big swings with already established big villains regardless of the franchise they are from until you get a story with one of them that is a success. Since if the story is good no one will care where the villain is from. Sure, you can still use new original villains here and there but then you can't complain about Nightwing's rogues gallery at the same time.

Nightwing lore has never had a chance to shine outside of comics for more than a few cameos. There has never been an opportunity for anything to lodge itself into a generations brain and make them never let it go. Young Justice failed him, Gotham Knights, Titans all only ever scraped at his solo work. Twice solo projects for him scraped to do team shows. Even Deathstroke himself can get a solo animated film. When I say that villain a should be reused and developed I didn’t mean just the comics they have to follow them. The way cheetah does wonderwoman, I wouldn’t say she is a beloved villain but consistency has been key and now she is the villain people most associate with wonderwoman.

Didn’t we just see marvel turn thanos into a public icon. Everyone knows who he is the way they know Darth Vader now. Marvel doesn’t like to keep villains around and the ones who do become antihero’s but it’s certainly possible.


I don’t know where to categorize Deadpool, I associate him with the X-men and thus he has plenty of villains to choose from his video game which predates his movie the villain is sinister. He’s apart of a much larger brand one has spun out the way Harley has but more successfuly since he didn’t require an overhaul to be acceptable to market

[Godlike13]

It was consistent the two kept facing off with one another. Since his first solo both his team books In animated films. This all went on consecutively up to his I quit robin moment. Enter Williamson who follows it up by including his friendship with rose and now half brother from Slade.

I was just talking about Priest's interest in Damian. His interest evolved from there.

[Badou]

Damian made him uncomfortable, and it bothered him that Batman, his father, was more or less leaving him out in the cold at the time. It evolved from there.

It all felt like retcons from Priest. Where apparently it was actually Slade that Talia wanted to have a kid with all along before Bruce, and even creating that alt universe version where Slade actually had Damian as his own kid. I thought it was all pretty bad.

Nightwing lore has never had a chance to shine outside of comics for more than a few cameos. There has never been an opportunity for anything to lodge itself into a generations brain and make them never let it go. Young Justice failed him, Gotham Knights, Titans all only ever scraped at his solo work. Twice solo projects for him scraped to do team shows. Even Deathstroke himself can get a solo animated film. When I say that villain a should be reused and developed I didn’t mean just the comics they have to follow them. The way cheetah does wonderwoman, I wouldn’t say she is a beloved villain but consistency has been key and now she is the villain people most associate with wonderwoman.

Didn’t we just see marvel turn thanos into a public icon. Everyone knows who he is the way they know Darth Vader now. Marvel doesn’t like to keep villains around and the ones who do become antihero’s but it’s certainly possible.


I don’t know where to categorize Deadpool, I associate him with the X-men and thus he has plenty of villains to choose from his video game which predates his movie the villain is sinister. He’s apart of a much larger brand one has spun out the way Harley has but more successfuly since he didn’t require an overhaul to be acceptable to market

The problem is that to get those other media appearances outside of comics Nightwing needs BIG stories with top tier villains. Those are the kind of stories that get adapted into movies, animated shows, games, and so on. They aren't going to adapt some version of Nightwing fighting a C or D list villain and have that be it. Nightwing has a very dry catalogue when it comes to big stories against big villains and it prevents the character from being pushed forward more. That is my entire argument.

And Thanos was created by Jim Starlin in the 70s in the Iron Man book. Thanos was grandfathered in and came from a main Marvel book. I think Iron Man is on issue #600 something by now? Plus Infinity Gauntlet was a major Marvel book before the MCU was a thing. It was a very successful event book from major comic creators. There just aren't any real villains that have broken out that came from a new solo book that was launched around the time Nightwing first got his own solo book. So this idea that some original or new villain created in Nightwing's solo book is going to break out if used more is a false narrative. Since there are no examples of this happening in the Big 2 in modern comics.

[Rac7d*]

It all felt like retcons from Priest. Where apparently it was actually Slade that Talia wanted to have a kid with all along before Bruce, and even creating that alt universe version where Slade actually had Damian as his own kid. I thought it was all pretty bad.



The problem is that to get those other media appearances outside of comics Nightwing needs BIG stories with top tier villains. Those are the kind of stories that get adapted into movies, animated shows, games, and so on. They aren't going to adapt some version of Nightwing fighting a C or D list villain and have that be it. Nightwing has a very dry catalogue when it comes to big stories against big villains and it prevents the character from being pushed forward more. That is my entire argument.

And Thanos was created by Jim Starlin in the 70s in the Iron Man book. Thanos was grandfathered in and came from a main Marvel book. I think Iron Man is on issue #600 something by now? Plus Infinity Gauntlet was a major Marvel book before the MCU was a thing. It was a very successful event book from major comic creators. There just aren't any real villains that have broken out that came from a new solo book that was launched around the time Nightwing first got his own solo book. So this idea that some original or new villain created in Nightwing's solo book is going to break out if used more is a false narrative. Since there are no examples of this happening in the Big 2 in modern comics.

He doesn’t need big stories. He needs stories. Which he has. Not every episode of Superman, Batman or Green lantern the animated series was some grandiose adventure. Some big 3 parters other done in 22 minutes. But he keeps getting robbed the opportunity to shine and build his brand further.

[Godlike13]

When it comes to adaptations what he needs is for WB to sort out their situation. Not having more other media appearances outside of comics has a lot to do with WB's troubles after JL.

[Badou]

He doesn’t need big stories. He needs stories. Which he has. Not every episode of Superman, Batman or Green lantern the animated series was some grandiose adventure. Some big 3 parters other done in 22 minutes. But he keeps getting robbed the opportunity to shine and build his brand further.

You are comparing him to characters like Batman, Superman, and Green Lanterns who have top tier villains in their rotation of stories. So you can do small stories in-between big ones much easier. Nightwing doesn't have that and the idea that he will somehow develop it by just doing the same thing over and over feels like wishful thinking when there are no examples of it happening with modern characters in the same position as Nightwing. To get something like an animated series, or even just an animated movie, you need something more to elevate the character. Especially when he is positioned behind Batman and even Robin in a lot of media now. Him fighting Blockbuster for the 5th time or some other D list villain isn't going to open any paths for the character.