Polaris: Queen of Mutants/Mistress of Magnetism Appreciation 2024

[kcekada]

Do people here hate Polaris and Havok as a couple? I feel like people should really stop hating on Polaris/Havok, or blaming him, especially since it's only a matter of time before Alex and Lorna are a couple again, everyone knows it's a matter of time before they hook up. together again, right?

I loved them as a couple in X-Men 97 through when Lorna became possessed by Malice. That was peak 'Havolaris/Polavok' for me. Both have been through too much since for me to even consider them getting back together at this point. But if they should find themselves in a good place some day -- I could certainly see the spark reigniting, but it's also possible that they've both changed too much for that relationship to work again.

[salarta]

Do people here hate Polaris and Havok as a couple? I feel like people should really stop hating on Polaris/Havok, or blaming him, especially since it's only a matter of time before Alex and Lorna are a couple again, everyone knows it's a matter of time before they hook up. together again, right?

Hate is a loaded word. I'm strongly opposed to it.

The history of their relationship is, for the most part, a really bad one for Lorna. When Lorna was created, before Havok, she had her own interests and aspirations and potential. Then over time, the concept of Lorna as a strong independent woman dealing with a love triangle fell away into Lorna existing just to be a supporting character for Havok. Whether that meant crying for Havok to rescue her (whether from a Sentinel or Sabretooth), or leaving the team because he didn't want to be on it anymore, or assisting him while he led teams (90s X-Factor, Starjammers).

Over decades, this led to key aspects of her identity getting thrown away, sometimes given to other characters, in favor of making her all about what she can do and be for Havok. Genosha is a vivid example. Surviving a genocide that inflicted so much trauma SHOULD have meant a lot more. Instead, we've seen other characters like Jean, Storm and Shadowcat get to do things with it or talk about it in important moments. Whereas Lorna shows up to Genosha recently and gets written as having no thoughts aside from not getting a coffee fix, or she's remembering aspects of her history and kissing Havok in the 90s gets a pic but nothing at all concerning Genosha.

She's the second woman to join the X-Men, Iceman's first "love interest" in publication history, Jean's first female friend on the X-Men, launched Krakoa into space (with charging from Storm, Cyclops and Havok) in Giant-Size X-Men... and yet the main focus for decades was "hey she's this blonde white dude's girlfriend."

It also took 45 years (early 2010s) for Lorna to finally get an origin story and lead a team. Havok got his origin story back in the 70s. Got to lead a team in the 90s. I'm sure there's a decent number of people who, if they know both characters, think Havok was created before Lorna purely because of how often Lorna got presented as a supporting character for Havok.

When you look at the whole context, it's plain to see that Lorna forced into relationship with Havok did nothing but hurt her as a character for decades.

However, I don't blame Havok the character for the sins of writers and editors. Characters don't control how people choose to use or misuse them. I think Havok benefited at Lorna's expense from Lorna's misuse, but at the same time, he would have benefited much more if Lorna were treated properly. As an equal partner instead of a lesser being.

The poor decisions of past writers and editors ironically undermined the true potential of their relationship at the same time they undermined Lorna's potential as her own character. And in so doing, they ruined opportunities Havok would've had to show facets of his character that only the real Lorna in all her glory could bring out.

There's a price to decades of misuse. That price is time needed fixing the damage before any real attempt can be made at bringing them back together. Personally, I never want them anywhere near each other again. Every time risks the same old terrible treatment and ruined potential, if not immediately then down the road. But if the two getting back together is a goal, then it has to be done after perception of Lorna has been fully rehabilitated, her true potential has been properly tapped sufficiently, and she can be seen and treated as a meaningful character in and of herself when they interact.

Duggan's work with her since she won the X-Men vote is what I'd call the real start of that work. Up until him, every single thing Lorna did had Havok forced into it somehow, and opportunities like leading her own team kept getting undermined by negative attitudes of her rooted in "oh she's just a supporting character, like we've seen when she's with Havok." I don't expect Marvel to always give Lorna a spotlight like she's getting this week, but the underlying respect for her own perspective and experiences and where she genuinely fits with them in mind is something I do expect. And more of that is needed before the two getting back together could possibly be a good thing.

[davetvs]

I like Havok/Polaris as the reverse image of Scott/Jean; highschool sweetheart types who don't actually end up staying together.

[JudicatorPrime]

Do people here hate Polaris and Havok as a couple?

I thought Havok and Polaris should have broken up never to reunite again ever yeeeaaaaaarrrrrrrs ago. I feel that way about many relationships that started when both individuals were too young to know what life is really like and evolve over time mostly apart from one another. I like the idea of Havok being Polaris' old flame, but what I like more is the notion that she meets someone else, someone new for the second, third and fourth acts of her life. If you want a relationship where two people meet as kids and stay together their entire lives, then stick with Jean and Scott or Reed and Sue. But that track isn't for everyone. It's not even realistic that just about every X-couple would have that same outcome, if you consider the totality of their experiences and subsequent growth. I'm looking forward to see who Polaris falls in love with next.

[Havok83]

I like Havok/Polaris as the reverse image of Scott/Jean; highschool sweetheart types who don't actually end up staying together.

LOL...except they were adults when they got together, not highschool sweethearts. Alex was graduating college and Lorna was an adult living on her on when we were introduced to them late in the O5 X-men run

She's the second woman to join the X-Men, Iceman's first "love interest" in publication history, Jean's first female friend on the X-Men, launched Krakoa into space (with charging from Storm, Cyclops and Havok) in Giant-Size X-Men... and yet the main focus for decades was "hey she's this blonde white dude's girlfriend."

She was actually his second. She's often forgotten but Bobby dated Zelda for a while before he set his eyes on Lorna

[GoingGreen]

I appreciate Havok as part of Polaris' history. But they are terrible for each other, they were constantly at odds or literally trying to kill each other. Polaris was treated as Havok's obstacle to a happy ending with a racist at one point. And all Havok has ever wanted was to control Polaris... who was set up from the beginning to be against that sort of behavior.

I want Havok to be something Polaris outgrew. I'm happy the days are here that every appearance isn't shackled to him. I look forward to the days when Polaris' forums are not shackled to him, as well.

Lorna's ready for something new and stable. And I'm going to continue to One-Man-Army my hope and dream for Sunfire (but LZ's pretty convincing about Bishop...)

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I'll just say that I disagree with most if not all of that Going, one partner trying to kill the other is not only on Alex and Lorna, I don't remember Alex or his goal to control Lorna. The former was mostly mind control or undercover work, or bad writing for both. But Lornas problems over the last decade or so are NOT Alex's fault. The fault for the pairs problems lies with the editors and writers. If they don't want to push Lorna it doesn't matter if she's dating Alex or not.

[salarta]

She was actually his second. She's often forgotten but Bobby dated Zelda for a while before he set his eyes on Lorna

Was she created and introduced before Lorna was? Because if she was made after Lorna, that’s what I meant by first. She’s not his first in-universe, but I was under the impression she was his first in terms of publication.

[Havok83]

Was she created and introduced before Lorna was? Because if she was made after Lorna, that’s what I meant by first. She’s not his first in-universe, but I was under the impression she was his first in terms of publication.

Lorna debuted in what X-men 49? Zelda was created circa X-men 30ish

ETA:

Wow, I was off. Zelda actually debuted in X-men #7. Bobby first asked her out in #14. They were a couple in the background and the image that comes to mind is his birthday circa #30 which is what confused me

https://x-men.fandom.com/wiki/Zelda_Kurtzberg



Thats their first interaction way back then. She definitely predates Lorna by several years.

[salarta]

Lorna debuted in what X-men 49? Zelda was created circa X-men 30ish

ETA:

Wow, I was off. Zelda actually debuted in X-men #7. Bobby first asked her out in #14

https://x-men.fandom.com/wiki/Zelda_Kurtzberg



Thats their first interaction way back then. She definitely predates Lorna by several years

Okay thanks. So, not first “love interest,” but first mutant/powered one.

[GoingGreen]

I'll just say that I disagree with most if not all of that Going, one partner trying to kill the other is not only on Alex and Lorna, I don't remember Alex or his goal to control Lorna. The former was mostly mind control or undercover work, or bad writing for both. But Lornas problems over the last decade or so are NOT Alex's fault. The fault for the pairs problems lies with the editors and writers. If they don't want to push Lorna it doesn't matter if she's dating Alex or not.

You can disagree of course, but I'd really love to understand why, if you care to discuss.

I would be extremely surprised to see another Marvel couple who have been on panel attacking each other nearly as many times as Polaris and Havok have. I have tons of screenshots - this isn't the first time this has come up. Yes, frequently, at least one was under mind control or influenced in some way during these moments. That does not change the fact that in a strictly visual-only, serial media (meaning context is easily ignored by new or wide audiences who don't have the time, resources, or maybe even interested in going back for every little detail), they have attacked each other time and again.

If the "undercover" one you're referring to is when Havok formed a Brotherhood "undercover" - I'm sorry, but one of his surprise attacks hit her so hard, her heart stopped and she needed to be resuscitated. She would've died if not for Shard finding her. That's not exactly an "oopsie, I was undercover, pls 4give" moment.

After Malice, their relationship never truly recovered. They had a handful of good moments, and I think I can recall only once was a disagreement / argument of theirs handled in a healthy way... but when I think back to their relationship, I can't remember anything specific after Malice that makes me go, "oh, what a great moment for those two!"

"Goal" to control her isn't the right word. It wasn't a conscious thing he did, it's just what he did. I could point to a lot of moments, but I'll keep it brief: After countless times Polaris has compromised for him or fought on his behalf or to save him or whatever (no, this was not equal between them, I'd guess about 70/30, Polaris/Havok), he didn't even entertain a conversation when he decided for them both they would leave X-Factor Investigations, it was just his way or no way, and he'd been practically dismissive of her from the time they got back to Earth from a long time stranded in space until he quit X-Factor to lead an Avengers b-squad. And they broke up as a result. Another moment off the top of my head, Havok getting Quicksilver to join Polaris' X-Factor team to spy on her, dismissively calling her crazy and assuming she needed or would need him.

If you were confused when I was talking about Polaris being portrayed as an obstacle for Havok's happy ending with a racist: It was the first half of their appearance in Austen's run, when Havok returned to 616 after they believed him dead, only to fall into an engagement with Polaris that he secretly didn't want, while having a psychic affair (that they blamed on a child's intervention, so they could keep Havok looking like a pristine little aryan) with a racist human nurse who openly admitted to her prejudices. This resulted in the Wedding that Wasn't, more death-battles between Havok and Polaris (her having been silently suffering extreme PTSD after being on Genosha during the genocide of 16 million mutants, plus the alleged loss and return of the love of her life - I mean, could you imagine then finding out he was having an affair with a human who hated mutants?!?!). Anyway, eeeeverything leading up to this was to paint Polaris as an in-house villain, and an obstacle for Havok. Fortunately, this was followed up with some healing and development for Polaris, but that's another story for another day.

The fact that they even got back together again after this is -insane- to me. How, in this world we live in right now, was Brubaker like, "No, it's fine. All of that is fine."

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Annie and Carter were patterned after Austens wife and her son and he put himself into the books as Alex, and people forget that Carter helped bring them together with his powers. So no different than say Xavier or Jean using telepathy to push a pair together without their consent. It doesn't totally absolve Alex of those actions but it's a complicated spot.

Other xcharacterd have tried to kill each other, maybe not as much but some of that is just bad writing. Years ago Dani almost killed her friends whole undercover and got a free pass by most, but again doesn't absolve Alex fully but not something that otherwise he would have made any attempt at.

Some of the more recent Xfactor stuff was the writer wanting to split them up. So in the tradition he was written badly and he wasn't on a book then really so he was a sacrificial lamb in some ways.

The pairing isn't perfect but so far nothing that would keep them apart if Marvel wanted it to happen with the reboot.

[Havok83]

You can correct me with examples but i dont recall Dani ever trying to or nearling killing anyone while undercover with the MLF.

Screenshot 2024-02-12 at 6.33.13 PM.jpg[

This was abuse. He blasted her with the full extent of his powers in order to escape and he just left her there for dead. Thats the moment that irrevocably ruined them as a pairing

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I think that she hit Sunspot with her arrows causing him to fall from the sky, and he would have either died or been seriously injured if he hadn't been saved. And Dani didn't care that he had almost died and if he had it would have directly her fault.

[GoingGreen]

Exactly, Havok83, thanks for sharing the screenshot.

And on the Carter telepathic intervention - I don't ever recall Xavier or Jean telepathically intervening on Polaris and Havok's relationship/s. Also, Carter didn't telepathically MAKE them have an affair, he created a telepathic space for them to have an affair, similar to Scott and Emma having a psychic affair. But more importantly, I don't want to brush over the main problem with this situation: Havok had an affair with an openly anti-mutant, racist human mere months after Polaris survived the genocide of 16 million mutants. Yet, Polaris' PTSD response to this has been held against her by fellow X-Men (and fans) for now decades since, and Havok gets to keep calling her "crazy". Meanwhile, he's on and off with Madelyne Pryor, but I digress.

I'm very hard on Havok in spaces meant for Polaris, I recognize that. But I've yet to be shown if or why I shouldn't be.