IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2024

[Doombot]

Welp. That was something.

So... after dinking around where they don't belong, the FF along with Stingray of all people (who should really know better) find giant Atlantean doors, ominously named the "Atonement Chamber" (hint: PRISON, REED!) and then promptly decided to open it, cause microalgae is pretty effin boring, yo.

Sue, seconds after seeing Natlus (big eye-roll on the name btw) deems he just must be an Atlantean/Lemurian hybrid. She does this how exactly? The entire Atlantean/Lemurian thing has never been clear, they are the same people. Just living in geographically different places. So you can tell he's a "hybrid" how? I mean it's not even clear in the comics if Lemurians are distinguished by green skin, Naga had blue skin, Karthon has blue skin, as did all Lemurians in the older Silver Age issues. The slight serpent scaling is a magical addition to the people, not a genetic one. But hey, Sue knows stuff, guys.

Natlus himself, like his name, is so unoriginal and the seeming undying tropes of "Lost Kings & Empires" and "Rightful Heirs" or "Challengers to the Throne", is so tiresome that it's not even funny. How about we have Namor sit on his own damn throne, with an intact kingdom, for like ten minutes before we throw the 67th Lost King at him? At this point Namor should just be like, hell, you can have Atlantis. We can't keep the walls up for more than six months at a time anyway. I legit think he's staying in prison just to avoid the utter headache of trying to keep Atlantis from it's 40th destruction in a century. Oh, and we can add another destruction of Atlantis to that old list we'd been keeping, as apparently four thousand years ago, both Atlantis and Lemuria were destroyed during a war with... Athens? Even Reed comments at how unremarkable it is for Atlantis to be destroyed, as if it were a banality.

I'm not sure if I'm even ready to comment how how stupid "Empire King" is. Or that it's an Official Royal Slogan(TM), but based on a disgraced guy they all want to forget....

I get the concept of a "Evil King" being resurrected only to later discover he was a good king trying to unite a flawed, ignorant people. I get it, it's like a Outer Limits or Twilight Zone kinda thing, which is cool, but there's just so much other dumb stuff muddying the water that I can't enjoy that bit.

Rev already said everything about the encounter between Sue and Namor better than I could. I mean, ignorantly releasing a dangerous Atlanean prisoner, and then blaming Namor for not warning them, is next level assholery. Like shockingly so.
I'll just add, that it continues to show how otherwise heroic characters like Sue and Cap, are utterly clueless to Namor's (and Atlantean) point of view and perspective, that it proves they are actually NOT good friends. Like at all. Namor, with all his broody or snarky attitude aside, is actually a true friend to THEM. In spite of everything.

So it seems that Marvel has now added even more convoluted, messy retconned history to an already unclear, ill-defined lore, just to add another "Challenger to the Throne" character, nicely set up for a non-existent Namor book to ignore.
I mean, aren't there like ten Sub-Mariner characters that could fill this role? Attuma? Byrrah? *cough* Llyron? *cough* Hell, Suma-Ket? Was this entire thing just to needlessly explain "Imperius Rex"?

Did I like anything? bitching aside, I do applaud anyone's attempt to add to and expand Marvel's Atlantis, even if it didn't work. (for me) I did love that someone finally acknowledged that Atlanteans, just by their very nature and physiology, would be able to take hits even from guys like the Thing. They live in the deep ocean, you should be able to drop a building on them and they'd shrug it off.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Do you all feel that Sue and Steve take advantage of Namor but also seem to have a slight superiority complex about Namor & the Atlanteans? For example, treating Namor as if they are better experts on how to deal with any Atlantean issues that arise.

Steve in Avengers telling Namor to hand over the prisoners even though Namor was in the right for taking the people to be tried in Atlantean Courts for the murders of his people.
Sue becoming "queen" of Atlantis by punching Namor/taking control over talking to the "Old Kings" in Hickman, or her visiting Namor here and acting like he should have told them everything about Alantis ever?

The way Namor & Steve's dynamic has not been equal in a long time is very different than how Sue & Namor's dynamic has been treated due to Marvel beating the dead horse of the NamorSue drama for decades now. I don't mind Sue being mean to Namor every now and then because when you think about it Namor's been written to always be one step away from proposing to Sue even though she's told him a dozen times she isn't interested, to the point where the writers basically have Namor be the creeper who can't take no for an answer as they constantly have him give her compliments/try to woo her even though she rejects him. Every "oh Sue, you were the one who got away" "Susan you will forget the buffoonery of your rubber husband and be my queen!" Namor does constantly insult Reed and the other F4 to Sue, and while I find the insults funny at times, coming from a character perspective who would enjoy having a man constantly hit on you, tell you your husband, brother and friend all suck, insult everyone you love, and not leave you alone for decades? I get why Susan is written to be not warm and friendly in this scene and I actually would perfer that than to have any room for more "Oh Susan is nice to Namor to that means she harbors secret feelings for him still". As opposed to Steve who just has that superiorty complex as if he knows how to run an entire ocean/nation better than Namor does. Steve doesn't have to contend with hundreds of different factions, ocean pollution, people who harm the ocean with over fishing/hurting coral reefs, politics of all the undersea people and the surface world of every nation not just america. It's tiring to see Namor constantly being kicked while he's down but these two characters in particular we are told are important to Namor but it really doesn't seem that way because 1. Susan isn't important to Namor, unless it's in a F4 book, the Namor books rarely showcase Susan at all. 2. Steve's "always mr right" narrative that Marvel gives him means that Namor is always wrong in comparison to whatever is going on, he's helped Namor and Atlantis in the past but I'd argue that Jim is the better friend of the original trio.

[Doombot]

Of course Sue and Steve take advantage of Namor. Almost all the heroes do. They all come knocking when they need Namor, and Namor constantly compromises and is willing to see the bigger picture when there are disasters, that large dangers threaten all, which includes his people. Yet when shoe is on the other foot, when Atlantis and her people are threatened (which is constantly) even the slightest reaction by Namor to protect or defend his people is met with immediate hostility and defensiveness on the part of Steve and the other heroes. It's shockingly myopic and un-heroic, and frankly diminishes them every time I see it. This issue is so extreme and one-sided that it always gets to the boiling point of Namor losing his s**t after being ignored and being pushed to the edge of retaliation or war with the surface. Which of course is only used to reinforce their ignorant and arrogant misconception that Atlantis and Namor are the enemy.

Just think of this last FF issue, Atlantis is literally shown in ruins, and we're told by Reed that her people are gone, dead or scattered, while Reed essentially shrugs and says the surface has the power to do this a thousand times over. Could you imagine if Atlantis did this to a surface city? Could you imagine the gigantic crossover and endless issues of surface heroes talking about how much of a dangerous threat Atlantis is and how evil they are to have weapons like this and be willing to even threaten to use them? We already saw the way one surface nation (Wakanda) reacted when Namor, under the influence of an a**hole cosmic entity, unleashed a tidal wave on a city. All of Wakanda saw all of Atlantis as The Enemy and we were treated to years of tiresome one-sided Wakanda vs Atlantis garbage. If only Marvel afforded Atlantis the same right to go absolutely ballistic if any outside entity dares attack or interfere with their kingdom as it does Wakanda.

Yes, we all know about the times Namor has attacked the surface with ships and monsters, but this is like the earliest Silver Age stuff that's as old as Namor kidnapping Sue. And even then it was a case of Namor and the surface not understanding each other. (and Atlantis being bombed and poisoned, as usual)

The issue of Sue and Namor is a whole other can of worms. A lot of which stems from nearly every one of these encounters coming from books where Namor is a guest-star at best, or more usually the morally ambiguous sometimes ally, sometimes villain. The difference between Namor in FF or Avengers books vs Namor in his own books is that when in other books he's obsessed with the main characters and old Silver Age grudges and relationships, yet in his own books almost none of these issues ever seem to cross his mind. The Namor in his own stories reminds me of the old Mad Men elevator meme with the surface heroes condescendingly saying to Namor "I feel bad for you." with Namor replying "I dont think about you at all."



It's interesting seeing the different reactions over in the FF thread.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Of course Sue and Steve take advantage of Namor. Almost all the heroes do. They all come knocking when they need Namor, and Namor constantly compromises and is willing to see the bigger picture when there are disasters, that large dangers threaten all, which includes his people. Yet when shoe is on the other foot, when Atlantis and her people are threatened (which is constantly) even the slightest reaction by Namor to protect or defend his people is met with immediate hostility and defensiveness on the part of Steve and the other heroes. It's shockingly myopic and un-heroic, and frankly diminishes them every time I see it. This issue is so extreme and one-sided that it always gets to the boiling point of Namor losing his s**t after being ignored and being pushed to the edge of retaliation or war with the surface. Which of course is only used to reinforce their ignorant and arrogant misconception that Atlantis and Namor are the enemy.

Just think of this last FF issue, Atlantis is literally shown in ruins, and we're told by Reed that her people are gone, dead or scattered, while Reed essentially shrugs and says the surface has the power to do this a thousand times over. Could you imagine if Atlantis did this to a surface city? Could you imagine the gigantic crossover and endless issues of surface heroes talking about how much of a dangerous threat Atlantis is and how evil they are to have weapons like this and be willing to even threaten to use them? We already saw the way one surface nation (Wakanda) reacted when Namor, under the influence of an a**hole cosmic entity, unleashed a tidal wave on a city. All of Wakanda saw all of Atlantis as The Enemy and we were treated to years of tiresome one-sided Wakanda vs Atlantis garbage. If only Marvel afforded Atlantis the same right to go absolutely ballistic if any outside entity dares attack or interfere with their kingdom as it does Wakanda.

Yes, we all know about the times Namor has attacked the surface with ships and monsters, but this is like the earliest Silver Age stuff that's as old as Namor kidnapping Sue. And even then it was a case of Namor and the surface not understanding each other. (and Atlantis being bombed and poisoned, as usual)

The issue of Sue and Namor is a whole other can of worms. A lot of which stems from nearly every one of these encounters coming from books where Namor is a guest-star at best, or more usually the morally ambiguous sometimes ally, sometimes villain. The difference between Namor in FF or Avengers books vs Namor in his own books is that when in other books he's obsessed with the main characters and old Silver Age grudges and relationships, yet in his own books almost none of these issues ever seem to cross his mind. The Namor in his own stories reminds me of the old Mad Men elevator meme with the surface heroes condescendingly saying to Namor "I feel bad for you." with Namor replying "I dont think about you at all."



It's interesting seeing the different reactions over in the FF thread.

Oh that screencap def needs to be a fanart XD but yeah that's really well put. I checked over at the F4 thread and its basically "Namor is a villain, so he's in jail for being a villain" and like, its astounding we are reading the same comics but come away with different takes bc any Namor fan would not hold up Aaron's terrible writing as any indication of who Namor's character is. I just think Marvel doesn't care enough about Namor to do anything except let him stay in Jail.

But yeah that's exactly why when people say "susan is so important to Namor" or "Namor should care about the mutants/avengers more" I'm like ???? bc in his books Namor doesn't care about any of them, he doesn't spend every second pining over Susan, he's got his own loves and his own life and problems going on.

[Reviresco]

That's a very interesting take on this Rev and I am inclined to agree with you on many points, the absence of Namor in comics has caused me to become desperate for crumbs and attempt to find the best in the situation. Personally I was just so freaking relieved to have a Namor and Sue interaction where their isnt any "namorsue jokes" that I was more than ready to look kindly on this comic. I dont think anything will really come out of this except Natlus being set up in an Attuma role "Might makes Right" and a mirror to Namor.

I'm with you there. I was very excited to see that Namor was going to appear in this GSFF book, cause it has been so damn long since we've gotten anything with Namor. Plus, FabNic is old school and has used Namor before, like in his reboot of Thunderbolts, as well as made Namorita popular with New Warriors. And I guess I can't really complain about his Namor in this comic, because he was only really in one page. But this mismash of Atlantean history ... no. Just no.

From what he said in an interview, I think FabNic had plans for Namor and Natlus, but he didn't realize he wasn't going to get the whole GS book, so the story was abbreviated.

As you said in your other post someone really needs to get a hold of the character and straighten out the Atlantean history, but no matter how much we lament it, it wont happen with Marvel. Personally I think another failed king is just on par with previous failed kings/emperors in the past so I'm not too fussed about there being more complex history because we really have crumbs to look forward to for the time being. *sigh* Personally I never liked the Kamuu stories so I just tended to not think of them, lol.

Ah. Well, if you don't like the Kamuu stories, then it wouldn't bother you. I really enjoyed them because they were the first, and only, time we got a history of Atlantis -- which Peter David later, but much better for Aquaman -- in a "book" of their own. Plus, I liked how it tied to an even older history / world with the Conan stuff, which I was enjoying at the time.

It wasn't the failed king aspect that bothered me (though I don't see how this loser could call Kamuu a failed king), but how much he reminded me of Ultimate Namor.

Honestly what you pointed out with Sue is something I agree with very much but again I TRY not to be a bitter person and constantly rant about how Sue (and the NamorSue) dynamic treats Namor bc it's just so aggravating. When Sue is like "why didn't namor ever tell us about him" like Namor isn't going to talk about old atlantean history/secrets out of no where, and also what makes Sue entitled to any Atlantean knowledge whatsoever? Like Sue becoming "Queen" in the Hickman run, it always annoyed me that Susan is given more right and respect than Namor. The one time I remember Namor calling Sue out for her hypocrisy was in Sub-Mariner (2007) #4 where Namor goes I helped you in your time of need but you cant do the same for me???

Attachment 138082

Attachment 138083

One of my favorite interactions between Namor and Sue, because, FINALLY, he called her on her crap. Of course, it happens in a Namor book. Sue gets away with all that other stuff, cause it doesn't happen in a Namor book, but usually in a FF book.

Some of us are always going to have ... negative feelings about Namor / Sue, because the writers just won't let it go, and they don't realize how it isn't helpful for the characters, especially Sue.

I do think Namor being a friend to Sue is what Marvel should do and I do like that Namor is being his sassy self even when he's at his lowest point. I do think its good Susan didn't ask after Namor's wellbeing bc there would be people who read too much into that and think she still has feelings for Namor when she doesn't. Anyways I don't think Natlus is a bad character to introduce, he reinforces the fact that even if a person was from the sea but was half atlantean/lemurian that the atlanteans and lemurians still dont accept people who are different at all which is a big part of namor's character too.

But Sue isn't even polite enough to say hello and thank you. Or "I'm sorry my idiot husband just opened own of your people's tombs without permission."

Sue does still have feeling for Namor. For every writer that has her saying, "no thank you," there's a writer who has her reveal she wants to be his queen or falling for his charms. This is why we'll never be free of this relationship. It's like the only 'interesting' thing they can think to do with Sue.

I think most folks know that the Atlanteans can be ... butt heads. And I could live with Natlus. But the idea that Atlantean and Lemurians are hybrids? That's like saying the offspring of a white Canadian and a white American is a hybrid. They wouldn't be. Now if they wanted to emphasize different cultures, kind of like what Stuart Moore was going for in run, where he had a Lemurian enclave in the capital city of Atlantis (though calling it Little Lemuria was dreadful), that would make more sense.

[Reviresco]

Welp. That was something.

So... after dinking around where they don't belong, the FF along with Stingray of all people (who should really know better) find giant Atlantean doors, ominously named the "Atonement Chamber" (hint: PRISON, REED!) and then promptly decided to open it, cause microalgae is pretty effin boring, yo.

Exactly. And yes. What was Stingray thinking? Of all the airbreathers, he's has spent the most time with the Atlanteans.

Sue, seconds after seeing Natlus (big eye-roll on the name btw) deems he just must be an Atlantean/Lemurian hybrid. She does this how exactly? The entire Atlantean/Lemurian thing has never been clear, they are the same people. Just living in geographically different places. So you can tell he's a "hybrid" how? I mean it's not even clear in the comics if Lemurians are distinguished by green skin, Naga had blue skin, Karthon has blue skin, as did all Lemurians in the older Silver Age issues. The slight serpent scaling is a magical addition to the people, not a genetic one. But hey, Sue knows stuff, guys.

I could be wrong, but I think the first green skinned Lemurian was Llyra, who was, like Namor, an actual hybrid with an airbreather. And isn't Natlus blue skinned? How is he different looking?

Natlus himself, like his name, is so unoriginal and the seeming undying tropes of "Lost Kings & Empires" and "Rightful Heirs" or "Challengers to the Throne", is so tiresome that it's not even funny. How about we have Namor sit on his own damn throne, with an intact kingdom, for like ten minutes before we throw the 67th Lost King at him? At this point Namor should just be like, hell, you can have Atlantis. We can't keep the walls up for more than six months at a time anyway. I legit think he's staying in prison just to avoid the utter headache of trying to keep Atlantis from it's 40th destruction in a century. Oh, and we can add another destruction of Atlantis to that old list we'd been keeping, as apparently four thousand years ago, both Atlantis and Lemuria were destroyed during a war with... Athens? Even Reed comments at how unremarkable it is for Atlantis to be destroyed, as if it were a banality.

I'm not sure if I'm even ready to comment how how stupid "Empire King" is. Or that it's an Official Royal Slogan(TM), but based on a disgraced guy they all want to forget....

LOL! Yes, we want to forget this horrible ruler, but we'll use his title? as an imperial battle cry??? Yeah, I don't think so. I'm totally dropping this in the memory hole of Atlantean hybrids being non-fertile. And WHY is anyone worried about a bunch of Lemurian / Atlantean hybrids, when they will just die out, right? They certainly aren't going to remain in power as a dynasty.

I can see Namor not wanting to go back, but you know the Atlanteans always come looking for Namor, cause their new leader is trash or there's a new threat they can't handle. Does anyone remember WHY Namor is in jail? Did he have a trial? Who is keeping him a prisoner? What is his sentence? Why am I expecting that mess to make sense?

Not even going to address the destruction of Atlantis ... again.

I get the concept of a "Evil King" being resurrected only to later discover he was a good king trying to unite a flawed, ignorant people. I get it, it's like a Outer Limits or Twilight Zone kinda thing, which is cool, but there's just so much other dumb stuff muddying the water that I can't enjoy that bit.

I'm pretty sure that Natlus was NOT going to end up a good guy. That ending didn't bode well, IMO.

Rev already said everything about the encounter between Sue and Namor better than I could. I mean, ignorantly releasing a dangerous Atlanean prisoner, and then blaming Namor for not warning them, is next level assholery. Like shockingly so.
I'll just add, that it continues to show how otherwise heroic characters like Sue and Cap, are utterly clueless to Namor's (and Atlantean) point of view and perspective, that it proves they are actually NOT good friends. Like at all. Namor, with all his broody or snarky attitude aside, is actually a true friend to THEM. In spite of everything.

I've often thought that about Cap and Sue in many stories. I think Cap works better when he makes commentary about America ... not about other places -- except Nazis. So, no. He should never be making 'judgements' about Namor and the Atlanteans. At best, he comes off as the Ugly American, at worst, he comes off patronizingly imperialist / colonial. Meanwhile, every time Cap or Sue show up in Atlantis, Namor ends up ticking the Atlanteans off to help them. SMH

I think that's one reason why I've always liked Namor -- and why he was so popular in the 60s, is that he presents the non-Establishment view. He offers a larger, global perspective that doesn't always align with Western powers.

So it seems that Marvel has now added even more convoluted, messy retconned history to an already unclear, ill-defined lore, just to add another "Challenger to the Throne" character, nicely set up for a non-existent Namor book to ignore.
I mean, aren't there like ten Sub-Mariner characters that could fill this role? Attuma? Byrrah? *cough* Llyron? *cough* Hell, Suma-Ket? Was this entire thing just to needlessly explain "Imperius Rex"?

Did I like anything? bitching aside, I do applaud anyone's attempt to add to and expand Marvel's Atlantis, even if it didn't work. (for me) I did love that someone finally acknowledged that Atlanteans, just by their very nature and physiology, would be able to take hits even from guys like the Thing. They live in the deep ocean, you should be able to drop a building on them and they'd shrug it off.

Agree with all of this, especially the first sentence.

Actually, I think the whole Lemurian / Atlantean hybrid stuff comes from Llyron -- just forgetting that he isn't Atlantean at all, but a quarter Lemurian and 3/4 airbreather, as his mother was Llyra and his father was Namor's half-brother, an airbreather son of Leonard MacKenzie. I remember FabNic used Llyron in his Thunderbolts revival.

[Reviresco]

Do you all feel that Sue and Steve take advantage of Namor but also seem to have a slight superiority complex about Namor & the Atlanteans? For example, treating Namor as if they are better experts on how to deal with any Atlantean issues that arise.

(cut)

Steve in Avengers telling Namor to hand over the prisoners even though Namor was in the right for taking the people to be tried in Atlantean Courts for the murders of his people.
Sue becoming "queen" of Atlantis by punching Namor/taking control over talking to the "Old Kings" in Hickman, or her visiting Namor here and acting like he should have told them everything about Alantis ever?

(cut)


As opposed to Steve who just has that superiorty complex as if he knows how to run an entire ocean/nation better than Namor does. Steve doesn't have to contend with hundreds of different factions, ocean pollution, people who harm the ocean with over fishing/hurting coral reefs, politics of all the undersea people and the surface world of every nation not just america. It's tiring to see Namor constantly being kicked while he's down but these two characters in particular we are told are important to Namor but it really doesn't seem that way because 1. Susan isn't important to Namor, unless it's in a F4 book, the Namor books rarely showcase Susan at all. 2. Steve's "always mr right" narrative that Marvel gives him means that Namor is always wrong in comparison to whatever is going on, he's helped Namor and Atlantis in the past but I'd argue that Jim is the better friend of the original trio.

Yes, to both Sue and Steve being written that way often. Like I said, this last GSFF had a very patronizing / colonial vibe, to me -- from breaking into an ancient tomb of another culture to making assumptions about their "translations" of another language, to believing a guy they didn't know over Namor, to the threat of gamma bombs and throwing Namor and the Atlanteans under the bus ... it was not a good look.

As for Steve ... I guess that's why the Winter Soldier idea went over so well. The fact that Steve gets to keep his idealistic, 'morally superior' world view, cause the people around him, like Bucky and Namor, are handling the real world.

Of course Sue and Steve take advantage of Namor. Almost all the heroes do. They all come knocking when they need Namor, and Namor constantly compromises and is willing to see the bigger picture when there are disasters, that large dangers threaten all, which includes his people. Yet when shoe is on the other foot, when Atlantis and her people are threatened (which is constantly) even the slightest reaction by Namor to protect or defend his people is met with immediate hostility and defensiveness on the part of Steve and the other heroes. It's shockingly myopic and un-heroic, and frankly diminishes them every time I see it. This issue is so extreme and one-sided that it always gets to the boiling point of Namor losing his s**t after being ignored and being pushed to the edge of retaliation or war with the surface. Which of course is only used to reinforce their ignorant and arrogant misconception that Atlantis and Namor are the enemy.

Just think of this last FF issue, Atlantis is literally shown in ruins, and we're told by Reed that her people are gone, dead or scattered, while Reed essentially shrugs and says the surface has the power to do this a thousand times over. Could you imagine if Atlantis did this to a surface city? Could you imagine the gigantic crossover and endless issues of surface heroes talking about how much of a dangerous threat Atlantis is and how evil they are to have weapons like this and be willing to even threaten to use them? We already saw the way one surface nation (Wakanda) reacted when Namor, under the influence of an a**hole cosmic entity, unleashed a tidal wave on a city. All of Wakanda saw all of Atlantis as The Enemy and we were treated to years of tiresome one-sided Wakanda vs Atlantis garbage. If only Marvel afforded Atlantis the same right to go absolutely ballistic if any outside entity dares attack or interfere with their kingdom as it does Wakanda.

I agree with this 100%!

Again, this is one thing I like about Namor. He makes you think about the 'other side' instead of just assuming the surface world or America is always right. That's another reason why I'd like to see Namor and Atlantis making alliances with other countries, and why I think I enjoy the Dr Doom alliance so much -- just go all in on the political stuff.

And the thing is, Atlantis shouldn't be at the mercy of any surface world 'tech.' They way more advanced than a gamma bomb. And given the oceans are the world's weather machines, they could do some really sneaky stuff and totally decimate the surface world.

Yes, we all know about the times Namor has attacked the surface with ships and monsters, but this is like the earliest Silver Age stuff that's as old as Namor kidnapping Sue. And even then it was a case of Namor and the surface not understanding each other. (and Atlantis being bombed and poisoned, as usual)

And in Namor's book, HE is usually the one who is trying to stop the Atlanteans or someone else from starting a war. It's crazy.

The issue of Sue and Namor is a whole other can of worms. A lot of which stems from nearly every one of these encounters coming from books where Namor is a guest-star at best, or more usually the morally ambiguous sometimes ally, sometimes villain. The difference between Namor in FF or Avengers books vs Namor in his own books is that when in other books he's obsessed with the main characters and old Silver Age grudges and relationships, yet in his own books almost none of these issues ever seem to cross his mind. The Namor in his own stories reminds me of the old Mad Men elevator meme with the surface heroes condescendingly saying to Namor "I feel bad for you." with Namor replying "I dont think about you at all."

OMG. This is perfect! Yes! That's exactly how it is, as well as sounds like something Namor would say. In Namor's own book, it's Sue who? Dude, I am trying to keep Dorma from killing Diane Arliss, while repeatedly telling that cray cray Llyra, I ain't touching that -- and then Betty Dean shows up after decades of ghosting me. Who has time to help Sue make Reed wake up and realize he's married?

It's interesting seeing the different reactions over in the FF thread.

Oh that screencap def needs to be a fanart XD but yeah that's really well put. I checked over at the F4 thread and its basically "Namor is a villain, so he's in jail for being a villain" and like, its astounding we are reading the same comics but come away with different takes bc any Namor fan would not hold up Aaron's terrible writing as any indication of who Namor's character is. I just think Marvel doesn't care enough about Namor to do anything except let him stay in Jail.

But yeah that's exactly why when people say "susan is so important to Namor" or "Namor should care about the mutants/avengers more" I'm like ???? bc in his books Namor doesn't care about any of them, he doesn't spend every second pining over Susan, he's got his own loves and his own life and problems going on.

Okay, I couldn't resist. I went over there and read it ... and responded. Seriously. I think we'd have a lot less of this 'villain' crap if Namor had his own book. Writers wouldn't be free to trash the character, cause they'd be interfering with whatever was going on in his book. As I said before, none of the other Illuminati paid a price for their actions, when Hickman finished torturing them in his New Avengers run -- cause they all had books or were getting one.

And yes. WHERE exactly were you various surface teams on the 10th, 15th, 100th destruction of Atlantis??? Exactly.

[ImperiusWrecked]

But don't you know Rev that Namor needs to help the X-Men or else he's a mutant hater/ashamed of being a mutant, he needs to help the Avengers & Fantastic Four or else he's a terrorist/villain. /sarcasm

It's just really tiring to see people still act like Namor has nothing better to do with his time than to cater to surface heroes in their books, and ignore that Namor as a character would not do certain things bc it would be OOC for him.



This image on tumblr really reminded me of Namor, lol, I was all "just need some ankle wings" XD

My Life My way Magazine. 1980

[Doombot]

Really fun FF concepts, including our boy, by Matt Kaufenberg on FB
Hi did the right Triiiiidennnt lol

[ImperiusWrecked]

Some amazing Lady Dorma and Namor/Dorma fanart by os_read on twitter

[Doombot]

Okay, lets do this, class. You have a 6 issue mini-series, the goal is to have a dramatic and impactful return of Dorma to 616 and the world of the Sub-Mariner. What do you do?

[K7P5V]

^^^Bring back Kurt Busiek, and let him finish what he started...

[Doombot]

No cheating! This is your own assignment!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Okay, lets do this, class. You have a 6 issue mini-series, the goal is to have a dramatic and impactful return of Dorma to 616 and the world of the Sub-Mariner. What do you do?

Going off current continuity where Namor is sitting in a jail cell and combining my own fanfic ideas into this reply.

Issue 1 - Namor is in jail, a few panels, or maybe a page to set up history, summary of back story/current situation to get new readers up to speed, his thoughts on his past life, his love for Dorma, his people, his friends like Vashti, his regret over how things ended all those years ago with a teen Attuma, nothing too lore heavy or complex. It ends with a splash page ACTION moment of a loyal set of Atlantean royal guards lead by Andromeda to break him out of jail while explaining that Atlantis needs him. Namor's thought bubble/narration box would be "of course Atlantis needs me, and I will forever answer her call" he stands up and breaks the handcuffs holding him, proving that he could have gotten out at any time if he wanted, a prison guard tries to stop him and Namor makes him back down with a glare as he leaves with his guard following into the waiting Atlantean ship. He takes the seat at the helm and Andromeda gets him up to speed as they race towards Atlantis. The Black Tide has returned and they've been causing havoc in the seas for weeks. Atlantis is in shambles politically and literally. Namor arrives in Atlantis and there's a few panels of him thinking about how many times his people and city have been hurt, before he asks where the council members are, many of them are dead, his cousins Seth and Dara have been trying to hold the line but both are unable to run the kingdom efficiently and mount a offensive against the Black Tide. Namor asks about Vashti and is told he's been kidnapped by Attuma several months ago. He's angry no one came to get him before but ultimately blames himself for having a pity party and trying to placate the humans. He says they are going to get his Vizier back and leads a team to Attuma's last known location via their spy network, it's a trap of course, that Attuma has baited for Namor which Vashti tries to warn them about before Attuma's people emerge, lots of action/fighting, a showdown between Namor and Attuma ends with Namor holding his trident to Attuma's neck who smiles his shark smile and holds up his hands, yielding, Namor is confused, thinking it's another trap but Attuma releases Vashti to Namor to prove his intentions were to ensure that Namor wasn't a weak king because the task ahead needs strength and if he had found Namor lacking then he would have killed him here and now. What is the task? The Stone has been activated, it's warping the waters around it in a vortex of black magic and no one knows what to do to fix it, monsters are emerging from it, and something big is coming. Ends on a cliff hanger.

Issue 2 - We are at the Stone, a huge shadow emerges and Attuma and Namor prepare to face it together, not a happy team up they still insult and snark at each other but they need to face this threat, the shadow comes out and it's Ambrose, the old giant monster goldfish pet of Dorma. Both are stunned bc the creature disappeared decades ago. It indicates that Namor and Attuma should follow him into the vortex, and Namor leaves orders with Vashti to return with Andromeda and help Seth and Dara restabilize Atlantis, and give aid, and Attuma agrees to let his warriors go along to protect everyone from the Black Tide's return. Attuma and Namor buddy road trip into the black darkness of the vortex. Action scenes as they fight twisted sea monsters/people and navigate the other side of the veil they have stepped through. Throughout we get Attuma’s backstory/history of what happened to him after the Chasm people died, basically a way to mix in his other origin of being born into slavery, except he was taken as a teen into slave camps of the whatever sea people, like idk Lemurians or someone else, he spends years getting stronger until he causes a revolt and his loyal followers are the people he liberated from the camps. Attuma of course lays all the blame on the Atlanteans and Namor, and tells him once they finish this task then he will be marching on Atlantis while dragging Namor’s corpse with him as a trophy to show Atlantis their half breed false king is dead and now Attuma is the ruler. There is a presence of Great Power in this vortex world, that they are drawn to. Ends with a cliff hanger of them being confronted by the presence.

Issue 3 - Opens with a action scene as they fight the Great Power which takes the form of a shadow demonic woman, as they do they are given flashes of their pasts, their wrong deeds, their regrets, their happy memories become twisted into nightmares, their souls darken with hate and power, their bodies begin to transform like the other people/creatures who live in the Stone Vortex, cool art of the transformations as they descend into madness and evil caused by the stone/great presence. Through the haze of this corruption, Namor recognizes Dorma is the Great Power and he pulls on memories of happiness with her, their times growing up, their time spent loving each other, fighting side by side as partners, he clings to the memories even as Shadow!Dorma tries to twist them into bad memories, he shows her his mind/memories of her death, and how badly it affected him, how lost he was after she died, how he grieved for her. Namor opens his heart & mind to Dorma knowing that if he cannot reach her then she will corrupt him as Attuma’s corruption is nearly complete. Namor shares his deep love for Dorma who finally breaks free of the Stone’s influence and remembers herself, her past, she recalls all the power of the stone. Namor and Attuma shift back to normal as a swirling vortex of power and lights rotate around Dorma who’s eyes go black as she commands all the power of the stone to be stored inside herself and locks the power away. All is quiet as the vortex world is gone and they are back in the ocean having been transported into the throne room of Atlantis, where Attuma and Namor are kneeling before a newly resurrected Dorma who radiants with power, her eyes are black, and the rest of the court watches in awe at the return of their beloved queen. Namor stands and reaches for her, saying her name “Dorma… you’ve returned.” comic ends there with a to be continued cliff hanger.

Continued in next post

[ImperiusWrecked]

Issue 4 - Dorma's issue, it begins with Dorma as a child being raised in Atlantis’s court, her seeing Namor being an outcast and befriending him, her teachings of magic, her history, her father is her only surviving family, basically this issue is a love letter to Dorma and cements her past, her death, and explains how the interaction with the stone when she was a teen created an unbreakable link between it and her soul, how the power was so great she didn't know how to use and she just figured that after the events of King in Black she lost her magic powers but it was just dormant and after Llyra murdered her, her soul was snapped back like a rubber band into the Stone where it was trapped for all these years, how she spent years learning it’s dark magic, and being lost to the darkness until Namor reminded her of who she was and the comic ends with her back in the present, with Namor reaching out to her. She has returned, the stone and her magic resurrecting her body, but she has used much of her power and she does not have the full access as she did in the shadow vortex, which means she has magic but it’s limited bc of her resurrection. Namor and Dorma have a very heavy moment of their reunion where they hug but just before they kiss the news of the Black Tide’s return causes panic in the throne room. Ends on a cliff hanger.

Issue 5 - Namor, Dorma, and Attuma are once again reunited in battle, a call back to their time together from King in Black. Dorma tells Namor her magic is spent but she picks up a sword and is still ready to fight, Namor picks up his trident, and Attuma has his own sword. They are joined by Attuma’s people, Andromeda and the castle guard, Lord’s Seth and Dara, and… Warlord Krang. He steps forward and takes Dorma’s hand, kissing the back of it, slimy as a eel and with a glint of hunger for power in his eyes he compliments Dorma, saying he’s missed her, and how he would lay his life down for her, pledging to be her guard and friend. Namor is not impressed but he has to deal with that later. Dorma is suspicious but accepts his sword arm for now. This will play into later issues/comics where Krang is loyal only to Dorma, and slowly tries to influence her to betray Namor & get with him, but for now he fights alongside them as they go to face the Black Tide. Big showdown page. As the sorceress Sycorax uses her powers to make dead sea people’s skeletons rise and fight against the heroes, each character, Namor, Dorma, Attuma, Seth & Dara, Krang, and Andromeda have close up fight shots as they battle the Black Tide. Andromeda saves AttumaÂ’s life, citing that she only did that because she needs him to help save Namor and not because she thinks of him as her father in a kindly manner, the tension between father and daughter is there but Attuma compliments her strength and says if she had been born a son she would have led his own armies. She is hurt by the rejection even though she thought she was over it but she turns her back on Attuma and gets back into the fight. Cliff hanger on Namor facing the Black Tide’s leader Kharsa.

Issue 6 - The Black Tide wants the Stone that is currently laying dormant in the center of the throne room (later it would be revealed the stone cannot be moved from its place and it becomes a constant reminder and a centerpiece of the throne room, suspended floating in a force field that no one can touch) and they want Lady Dorma because she now the key to controlling the Stone. Namor says they’ll never touch her and he would die to save Dorma because he cannot lose her again. Fight scenes, Fight scenes, and then Dorma is stabbed in the stomach, Namor screams Nooooo, thinking he has lost her after only just finding her again, he gathers her in his arms, and she touches his face, saying that she’s always loved him but she wasn’t ready to die just yet, she had so much to live for, she “dies” her eyes closing and Namor grieves again, but then her eyes shoot open, black power with cool effects fill them and she heals herself, and she cannot control herself, as she directs all her power towards her enemies, but even as she drives away the Black Tide who fear her power and flee, she still cannot stop her destruction, she is floating with a lot of power around her, and she could kill everyone around her if she isn’t stopped. Attuma screams at Namor to kill her, but Namor refuses, instead he throws himself at Dorma’s power, it eats away at his flesh as he swims closer to her, and he yells out for her to remember herself, she sees the harm she is doing to Namor and remembers him and herself. She cries out as she shuts down the power and collapses. As she recovers she states she cannot trust the power within herself but will work towards controlling it. Wrap up the story with Namor, Dorma, and Attuma saying their farewells, Attuma promising Namor that their temporary truce is over and the next time he sees them he will kill him. Dorma is welcomed back by Vashti, Seth, and Dara, and other court members, while Andromeda stands next to Namor and comments on her return, asking Namor if it’s really her, and he says it is. Namor thanks her for being a friend and for for keeping her duties as the captain of his guard, and comments on Attuma, she says that her father will never change no matter how much she might wish for it and she’s given up trying to get his acceptance. Andromeda then asks him if he will kill Dorma if she loses control again and he says nothing. Ends with Namor joining Dorma in the center of the court and taking her hand to lead her up towards his throne where they will take their place as the ocean's rulers, a wide shot on the court, celebrations ensue, and then a pan away to one of the court members slipping away, turning a corner, and transforming into Empress Llyra, she holds up a mirror and speaks into it, saying that her plans are just beginning. The shadow figure in the reflection laughs. Ends with the promise of Court intrigue and drama, Namor and Dorma slowly re establishing their romance, and dark high fantasy adventures.