Marvel's Non-Team: The Defenders Appreciation 2024

[Dermie]

Wow! Sounds like there's gonna be a ton of new Defenders when I get to the 90s era!

Oh yeah, there will be tons. I don't tend to think of most of the "Secret Defenders" era members as actual "official" Defenders (if such a term really applies for a non-team). My feeling on it is that although the book used the "Defenders" name, it wasn't really a new version of the actual Defenders group.

Sort of like how books like GREAT LAKES AVENGERS and DARK AVENGERS and OCCUPY AVENGERS and A-FORCE were all satellite teams to the Avengers and those books used the "Avengers" name for sales and marketing purposes, but in-story none of those groups are considered actual official Avengers teams, and their members are not considered actual Avengers (except for those who already were Avengers, of course).

[Gaastra]

Dark avengers were the official avengers team by the government at the time and both cap and Hawkeye oked the great lakes as a team even getting called to missions by the east team and were summoned in jla vs avengers. (all official members were, and great lakes were there. In fact, berba was on the front line next to wonder woman!)

Don't forget before deadpool reconned them to goofballs the great lakes were good fighters.

I was only going by Defenders issues, so #106 it is! This is the story where Val was shot and her mortal host body (Barbara Norriss) killed.

Story starts in that cap issue than follows up in defenders.

[Sutekh]

I think my ideal Defenders line-up would include elements from the 'classic' Defenders group and the 'New Defenders' period together -- say, Nighthawk, Hellcat, Valkyrie, Hellstrom, Gargoyle, Cloud, Iceman...and Blue Marvel for some fresh blood.

I know I didn't include any of the original "big three" of Dr. Strange, Namor and Hulk, but to be honest I generally find them the least interesting part of a Defenders book. I always prefer to focus more on the "2nd string" members who were the true heart of the group, like Kyle, Val and Patsy.

Oh wow, exactly my preferences. I like the Silver Surfer, Namor and Dr. Strange individually, but not as Defenders (same with Moondragon, love her, but she feels a little too big for this team). While I totally feel like Nighthawk and Valkyrie are the heart of the team, with Hellcat and Hellstrom and Gargoyle right after them. And then maybe Red Guardian, Devil-Slayer and Andromeda?

I'm not quite as big a fan of Cloud or other short-time members like that Eternal Interloper, or Man-Slaughter, and prefer characters like Beast and Iceman as Avengers or X-Men, respectively.

If I were to pick an X-Man for the Defenders, it would be Angel. Warren gets bupkiss respect over at the X-franchise, IMO, and could get to shine as a Defender.

While I like Luke Cage, where he goes, Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, maybe one or more White Tigers, Jim Hammond/OG Human Torch, etc. eventually trickle in behind, and while I like *all* of those characters (even more than Luke!), I want a Defenders team *and* a separate Heroes for Hire team, not the two smooshed together!

[ComicNoobie]

Oh yeah, there will be tons. I don't tend to think of most of the "Secret Defenders" era members as actual "official" Defenders (if such a term really applies for a non-team). My feeling on it is that although the book used the "Defenders" name, it wasn't really a new version of the actual Defenders group.

Sort of like how books like GREAT LAKES AVENGERS and DARK AVENGERS and OCCUPY AVENGERS and A-FORCE were all satellite teams to the Avengers and those books used the "Avengers" name for sales and marketing purposes, but in-story none of those groups are considered actual official Avengers teams, and their members are not considered actual Avengers (except for those who already were Avengers, of course).

I see. There needs to be a list of the mainstay/true Defenders. I haven't read everything in the team so far. But I'd rank Dr. Strange, Hulk, Valkyrie, and Nighthawk, as the big mainstays, at least from what I've been through so far. Namor and Silver Surfer come and go, and there's a rotation with guys like Luke Cage and Red Guardian.

[Dermie]

Dark avengers were the official avengers team by the government at the time

Yes, but not official within the Avengers organization itself. The next time the founders need to put out a call for "every Avenger ever" they are extremely unlikely to be phoning up Bullseye, Moonstone and Mac Gargan.

and both cap and Hawkeye oked the great lakes as a team even getting called to missions by the east team and were summoned in jla vs avengers. (all official members were, and great lakes were there. In fact, berba was on the front line next to wonder woman!)

Their status has tended to fluctuate over the years -- sometimes they are considered at least semi-official...sometimes they are being told that if they don't stop calling themselves "Avengers" they will be sued by the Maria Stark Foundation.

Don't forget before deadpool reconned them to goofballs the great lakes were good fighters.

Don't get me wrong; I love the GLA and I agree that they are more competent than some writers give them credit for (especially after Mockingbird and Hawkeye spent time training them).

[Dermie]

Oh wow, exactly my preferences. I like the Silver Surfer, Namor and Dr. Strange individually, but not as Defenders (same with Moondragon, love her, but she feels a little too big for this team). While I totally feel like Nighthawk and Valkyrie are the heart of the team, with Hellcat and Hellstrom and Gargoyle right after them. And then maybe Red Guardian, Devil-Slayer and Andromeda?

I'm not quite as big a fan of Cloud or other short-time members like that Eternal Interloper, or Man-Slaughter, and prefer characters like Beast and Iceman as Avengers or X-Men, respectively.

Its interesting that you count Cloud as a "short time" member, but not Devil-Slayer or Andromeda. Cloud served on the team longer than either of them. Actually, looking at how many appearances each of them logged in the book, Cloud was an active member for as many issues as both of them combined!

It is true that although Cloud was a mainstay of the "New Defenders" era they were VERY rarely one of those members who tended to revisit the team again...or even turn up in other books instead. Andromeda at least gets to turn up from time to time with stories that involve Atlantis, and Starlight (the former Red Guardian) will occasionally get to appear in stories involving the Presence or the Winter Guard.

I was grateful that the last two miniseries finally rescued Cloud from limbo and acknowledged them as part of the Defenders deep bench of legacy characters.

If I were to pick an X-Man for the Defenders, it would be Angel. Warren gets bupkiss respect over at the X-franchise, IMO, and could get to shine as a Defender.

That is a good point. Although I like Iceman better he is more likely to get included over in the X-books, so Warren would probably benefit more from being with the Defenders.

The only problem is that having Warren and Kyle on the team at the same time could seem redundant...two rich attractive straight white guys whose primary power is flying. Given Kyle's tendency towards insecurity I can only imagine how he'd feel about being on the team the same time as Warren.

While I like Luke Cage, where he goes, Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, maybe one or more White Tigers, Jim Hammond/OG Human Torch, etc. eventually trickle in behind, and while I like *all* of those characters (even more than Luke!), I want a Defenders team *and* a separate Heroes for Hire team, not the two smooshed together!

Yeah, Luke's time on the Defenders was back before he and Iron Fist became partners (and long before he and Jessica Jones got married). It was a different period in his life, and he just wouldn't really fit with the classic Defenders on an ongoing basis anymore. A short-term guest star stint would be fine, of course--but not as one of the ongoing core members. Present-day Luke Cage on a Defenders team would end up being what we saw in Bendis' DEFENDERS run...a 616 version of the MCU Defenders with Luke, Danny, Jessica and probably Daredevil and other street-level heroes. Like you said, save that for a "Heroes For Hire" and let the Defenders be the Defenders.