Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[Mercury]

@Mercury: if you really want to continue this discussion, I think we got to a point where we have to agree on some definitions. Forget about Jean for a second and think in general terms.

What does it mean to you that something (anything really) exists "outside of time and space"?

EDITED: What are the implications? Does it lead to omnipresence, for instance?

Forgive me for not responding sooner. I'm currently enduring the rigors of case management work and an accelerated MSW program. I spent half my weekend writing about the scientific validity and veracity of the DSM. Help me. Anyway...

To put it simply, to exist outside of time and space, or spacetime, means to operate as a distinct psyche or indistinct consciousness from a higher plane of existence and with a broader view of and perspective on spacetime-bound reality. However, in Jean's case, we also have to consider that she has psionic abilities that do not adhere to spacetime laws and perhaps transcend the laws outside of spacetime as well. After all, her abilities allow her to manipulate all forms of matter, perceive and influence psyches, and perhaps control select and ubiquitous consciousness itself. Consequently, I think we will be hard-pressed to arrive at definitive conclusions regarding her strengths and limitations, both within and outside of spacetime.

Honestly, that's all I've got right now. And it probably reads like a bunch of mumbo jumbo anyway, lol. What matters is that I know what I'm talking about, and good ol' Destiny substantiates some of that. Nonetheless, I'd love to read your thoughts. For now, I'm hitting the sack. And it's just after 6 AM here! 😭

[Mercury]

I'm popping back in to share a series of private messages from someone who has been paying attention to our discussion, GS. My brain is fried, but I love and also vehemently disagree with some aspects of these messages I can grasp at the moment. Anyway, I thought it would add to the discourse. I've asked the user to take credit. Good night/morning!

I have seen an interesting conversation of yours about time space and dimensions.I think the premise of GS that a 3D creature cannot interact with a 2D creature is wrong ,where would all the lore or spirits/gods interacting with humanity come from? If she concludes the physical world is all there is, I guess you have an uphill task to explain some of your concepts.If there is an alien language while we may not know it ourselves ,we could communicate through a different medium other than vocalisation ,we just have to know the 'how' right? So let us assume for a moment a 2 dimensional silhouette is sentient, as a 3D creature we can either use our own body to cast a shadow (and varying it's size to make an impression on this creature by moving closer or further to the surface of the silhouette).If it is a picture (again assuming it is sentient) we can draw a picture next to it that it may appreciate if it interacts in that single plane. Why am I saying this? Because by adding an extra dimension we exponentially increase the variables to manipulate objects in a dimension we perceive like ourselves. Look drawing/painting simply along two axes length and width. It is demanding and can require a skill of a 2 year old moving a pencil to a Van Gogh painting, but the moment you add the dimension of height(giving the room for volume) this is beyond picture this is sculpting and sculpting requires more work to chisel out depth as well as the previous dimensions. This is the world we live in today , a world where 3D printers follow this principle to create moulds for any solid substance. However beyond this there must be other dimensions.Time is considered a fourth dimension. To be out of time means to me (or maybe even to physicists) that the time dimension is as malleable or as much a changeable construct to a being as a sculpture is to us in a 3D world but even more so. We are 3D ourselves able to work on a 3D construct , but a being out beyond the 4th dimension while able to manipulate 4th dimension variables to 3Dimension constructs like us is not bound by the limits of the 4th dimension. There could be degrees of latitude obviously depending on if the being created the universe itself and exists outside the 4th dimension or a being who exists in the 4th dimension and so rules of that dimension do not affect it like 3rd dimension beings. Poor illustration but think of a river as time and us as fish caught in the current and the 4th dimension being being akin to an otter able to come in for a swim, but out to bask at the river bank as it pleases.

An illustration that I think is apt for your example take an almost 2D( in actual fact a 3D object ..at microscopic level there is depth to grooves) LP record like we had in the 60s , you place a stylus or the needle on a 3d boom arm to play the record. Now let us say the record has different songs .Because you want to play the entire record you have to wait an entire hour to hear your favourite song. You are a 3D creature so you may learn where on the record your favourite song begins so you put the stylus exactly where the song is and you save yourself precious minutes or if you love the song that much you can listen to the song for a whole hour, by looping the same song. Now we bring in the being out of the 4th dimension. To it the whole hour you spend is like a slice of a second simply because unlike you it sees you entering the room putting on the record as one continuum, but because it can manipulate the time dimension you listening to the whole record is no difference than listening to the one song , because in its perception time is malleable or observable in ways we cannot. It simply picks the moment at which the stylus is on one particular song to make the record play for as long as it needs and in that moment that song is all that is ,even if the entity is listening for a year in our timespan. Further let us make it even more interesting and say this entity took you out of your dimension to its vantage point, to listen to your record with its ability you could in the same second listen to every single song on the record for an hour, the record is one, the stylus is one , the boom is one but time is now malleable meaning you can put the stylus over different parts of the record and still hear the same song per time slice but to your new perception always be the perpetual 'now' without end. Obviously we can add hypothetical distortions if for example playing every song in one moment can cause overlap of the time beyond the 4th dimension into the 5th.. (assuming there are limits to time configuration just like laws of physics have limits in our 3d universe). So again this would be like Phoenix being in the white hot room with all its chronal echoes Jean, Hope, Racheal, the five that do not overload the world they are in,but do vibe back to source and it can tell if vibrations are harmonious or a cacophony of distortion because of interdimensional interference.

I personally don't have a problem grasping the beyond time concept at all. If you were to ask me is Jean omnipresent? I doubt it because of 2 reasons a) she is not end all entity in the Marvel Universe , other beings , for example according to G.O.D.S like oblivion, in-betweener, and the 8 universal abstracts among others have their 'turf' Marvel is a pantheon of god like beings not just the one b) In IXM3 where Hope/Jean and Exodus were in the expanse phoenix empire , it was re-set by Sinister's death and could not be interrupted or reversed by the Phoenix so it shows the Phoenix presence in that universe ended when the universe collapsed.Anyway but there is a physical phenomenon in our world that could be a classic explanation why omnipresence of the Phoenix is not needed there is what they call quantum entanglement where a particle is either linked to another or is the same particle being in two places i.e having wave characteristics and particle characteristics depending on viewpoint . .To understand that read this https://theconversation.com/explaine...e-duality-7414
It basically means or at least the way I understand it..a particle can move as either a particle or as as a wave and when it is a wave ,the destination cannot be measured because waves do not travel at a pinpoint trajectory but at a point of arrival the wave collapses to still arrive as a particle .Basically messing with predictability of observable physics without reducing certainty.This also feeds into the phenomenon of quantum entanglement.

I am not a physicist so a better explanation is

https://theconversation.com/what-is-...istance-191927

So it could be a way to explain Phoenix quantum entanglement between its own domain and other earths. Mind you these are all physical concepts in our dimension and they already fascinate scientists so imagine how much crazier phenomena manifest when seen through other dimensions!

Anyway you may have your head cannon. My issue with all this deep diving comes with 1) Agency- were Hope and Rachael created to comport in terms of destiny to a being(Jean/Phoenix) that already exists out of time and so they are but residual echoes? If that is so ,it weakens them as characters 2) Purpose -I think for me fusing Jean as both existing out of time and in time, doesn't make her interesting unless there is a bigger plot at play. With Jean it is all over the place with the story starting in the middle of a mortal Jean becoming a host to ,then restored to life by the immortal entity and now some posit she created/is the immortal entity? I think this cheapens the entire concept (that we know is a facsimile of biblical theophany )Who/What defines Jean's ultimate purpose at any one moment? Without delineating how Hope or Rachael fit into that plot or what it means for example for others around her .We can get different answers that have heavy implications by simply asking. Who does Jean speaks for ultimately? If she speaks for herself because she is phoenix or an avatar while being phoenix..then we don't need to have Scott saying she can judge his soul, because she drove his 'soul' to love a manipulator like Emma in Here Comes Tomorrow. If she is merely a host of an extra dimensional entity we need to know what is this entity's purpose for being in her that differs from Hope's or Rachel's purpose? If she created that entity then in a way the death and destruction caused by the corruption of the Five in AvX is on her hands (on the assumption none but her can tame the beast she created) Playing fast and loose with these concepts doesn't help. We need a bigger purpose in my opinion.

I am of the personal view that it is better when Jean and The Phoenix are sesperate sentient entities. In any case Jean is depicted as mortal and interested in temporal existence more than we see her talking as an entity beyond creation.

[Grinning Soul]

Forgive me for not responding sooner. I'm currently enduring the rigors of case management work and an accelerated MSW program. I spent half my weekend writing about the scientific validity and veracity of the DSM. Help me. Anyway...

Oh, don't worry. I get that real life gets in the way. Focus on it. Comics can wait.

To put it simply, to exist outside of time and space, or spacetime, means to operate as a distinct psyche or indistinct consciousness from a higher plane of existence and with a broader view of and perspective on spacetime-bound reality. However, in Jean's case, we also have to consider that she has psionic abilities that do not adhere to spacetime laws and perhaps transcend the laws outside of spacetime as well. After all, her abilities allow her to manipulate all forms of matter, perceive and influence psyches, and perhaps control select and ubiquitous consciousness itself. Consequently, I think we will be hard-pressed to arrive at definitive conclusions regarding her strengths and limitations, both within and outside of spacetime.

Honestly, that's all I've got right now. And it probably reads like a bunch of mumbo jumbo anyway, lol. What matters is that I know what I'm talking about, and good ol' Destiny substantiates some of that. Nonetheless, I'd love to read your thoughts. For now, I'm hitting the sack. And it's just after 6 AM here! ��

I asked because it’s hard to talk about such a thing without agreeing on what it means.

We’ve never been or sent a probe “outside of space and time” (to use the terminology Gillen has used) to know what happens for sure, so it’s highly conceptual. Moreover, I’d say it could lead to different implications.

Take Interstellar as an example.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

Whoever was helping the humans, couldn’t affect instants of time directly (that’s why they needed Cooper), because they had transcended time as we know it. So, they could create a construct inside an effing black hole, but they couldn’t be part of an instant in time. Fair to say, as powerful as they were, they had their limitations.

end of spoilers

And that’s why I was thinking of Jean’s limitations, once she’s “outside of space and time.”

You described as her being integrated, so I thought we could use the analogy of geometry. As 3D beings, all of us are the sum of infinite 2D slices. Mathematically speaking, that’s how we become integrated (we’re the sum of our infinite parts).

If that’s the case, if this “ascended Jean” (the 3D shape in the anology) is the sum -- the integration -- of those “fragments” (the 2D slices in the anology), the implication is that “ascended Jean” still can’t control the fragments. It’s a limitation that springs from the very definition of what she becomes.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

kinda like the “they” -- whoever is helping humanity -- in Interstellar. They’re powerful as AF, but not omnipotent. They have limitations).

end of spoilers

From this perspective, “ascended Jean” wouldn’t be able to affect 818-Jean alone (just like we can’t affect a single 2D slice of ours). If she was affecting one Jean, she should be affecting all of them. And since linear time doesn’t matter (for "ascended Jean"), it would be leading to the creation of several children between her “fragments” and their Scotts, at any point in their timeline, where linear time is a thing and conception could happen.

But this is the important part: unless the 2D/3D analogy makes sense to you, none of that matters.

Which is why I thought we had to take a step back and agree on some definitions.

--

Back to the comics, we can look at what appeared in Rise of the Powers of X.

Here are some clues from the dialogue/data page:

. Nimrod: "Very well. One last fistfight before we wave goodbye to corporeal existance."

. Enigma: "Watching, I ensured he [Diamond Sinister] would never remember timelines when he discovered his peers or the Dominions attempts. I watched all of this happen as it must. I exist outside of time and space. I am as inevitable as the period at the end of this sentence. You are merely watching how I came to be. You are merely watching how I won."

. Rasputin: "I know Enigma could be anywhere. You can't tell where it's watching."

. Xavier: "The whole timeline falls apart, and Dominion ceases to be. It's cut off at the root. If we kill off Moira before her gift activates when she's 13, it all goes away and Krakoa will never have been or never will be."

. Data Page: "Moira's No-Place, transformed and improved by Krakoa itself, under guidance from Cypher's gift. It is developed to exist outside time and space. As such, impossible to be directly observed by an entity such as Dominion.


By what Nimrod says, we can infer the (phalanx-like) Dominion doesn't have a corporal existence. (?)

By what Enigma says, existing outside of time and space leads to its inevitability. Once it comes into existence in any timeline, nothing can be done (that's why Charles decides to go to a contingency plan once Raspustin fails on a single timeline where there was a mutant-powered Moira).

The data page says a Dominion can't look inside the no place, which should extend to the White Hot Room (since both are “outiside of time and space”). The exception being when a Sinister ascends to a Dominion, they get consumed by Enigma even if they are in the WHR.

So, here’s the thing, Gillen is taking some limitations into consideration as well. Enigma is not omniscient. It can pick and choose the time and space at which it looks, but its attention is focused, not dispersed. How does that affect a consciousness which is telepathic? No idea.

I’d say, considering what we know, we can’t really predict where this is going. We just don’t know enough.

Maybe he’ll use this opportunity to tie Rachel’s birth to the 616-Jean who ascended? It’s possible. Maybe you’re fairly close to the idea.

I just can’t argue for or against it, you know? :)

I can only say I’d prefer if they wouldn’t go there.

[Grinning Soul]

@Mercury:

When I talk about 2D and 3D, I'm not talking about spirit. I'm talking about *matter* which exists in a space without height, the 2D space.

I hope this makes it easier to understand the 2D/3D things. 3D things are formed (integrated, in a mathematical sense) from their infinite 2D slices.



Again, it's just an *analogy* of infinite parts that are integrated to form a whole.

EDITED: the point of the analogy was to understand what she could do in relation to her own "fragments", not to everything else.

[Phoenixx9]

Forgive me for not responding sooner. I'm currently enduring the rigors of case management work and an accelerated MSW program. I spent half my weekend writing about the scientific validity and veracity of the DSM. Help me. Anyway...
��

Ah, the good old DSM! I remember when it was "DSM-3", which lasted for many years was supposed to be the final, all-inclusive version, lol!

Then of course, we had the DSM-3R for awhile. Now I believe it is up to version 5, with them saying, "No version 6 is planned", but eventually, it will go up.

Let's not even go into ICD or CPT (with CPT being the lesser of the 3 evils), lol!

[Micabe]

Oh, don't worry. I get that real life gets in the way. Focus on it. Comics can wait.



I asked because it’s hard to talk about such a thing without agreeing on what it means.

We’ve never been or sent a probe “outside of space and time” (to use the terminology Gillen has used) to know what happens for sure, so it’s highly conceptual. Moreover, I’d say it could lead to different implications.

Take Interstellar as an example.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

Whoever was helping the humans, couldn’t affect instants of time directly (that’s why they needed Cooper), because they had transcended time as we know it. So, they could create a construct inside an effing black hole, but they couldn’t be part of an instant in time. Fair to say, as powerful as they were, they had their limitations.

end of spoilers

And that’s why I was thinking of Jean’s limitations, once she’s “outside of space and time.”

You described as her being integrated, so I thought we could use the analogy of geometry. As 3D beings, all of us are the sum of infinite 2D slices. Mathematically speaking, that’s how we become integrated (we’re the sum of our infinite parts).

If that’s the case, if this “ascended Jean” (the 3D shape in the anology) is the sum -- the integration -- of those “fragments” (the 2D slices in the anology), the implication is that “ascended Jean” still can’t control the fragments. It’s a limitation that springs from the very definition of what she becomes.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

kinda like the “they” -- whoever is helping humanity -- in Interstellar. They’re powerful as AF, but not omnipotent. They have limitations).

end of spoilers

From this perspective, “ascended Jean” wouldn’t be able to affect 818-Jean alone (just like we can’t affect a single 2D slice of ours). If she was affecting one Jean, she should be affecting all of them. And since linear time doesn’t matter (for "ascended Jean"), it would be leading to the creation of several children between her “fragments” and their Scotts, at any point in their timeline, where linear time is a thing and conception could happen.

But this is the important part: unless the 2D/3D analogy makes sense to you, none of that matters.

Which is why I thought we had to take a step back and agree on some definitions.

--

Back to the comics, we can look at what appeared in Rise of the Powers of X.

Here are some clues from the dialogue/data page:

. Nimrod: "Very well. One last fistfight before we wave goodbye to corporeal existance."

. Enigma: "Watching, I ensured he [Diamond Sinister] would never remember timelines when he discovered his peers or the Dominions attempts. I watched all of this happen as it must. I exist outside of time and space. I am as inevitable as the period at the end of this sentence. You are merely watching how I came to be. You are merely watching how I won."

. Rasputin: "I know Enigma could be anywhere. You can't tell where it's watching."

. Xavier: "The whole timeline falls apart, and Dominion ceases to be. It's cut off at the root. If we kill off Moira before her gift activates when she's 13, it all goes away and Krakoa will never have been or never will be."

. Data Page: "Moira's No-Place, transformed and improved by Krakoa itself, under guidance from Cypher's gift. It is developed to exist outside time and space. As such, impossible to be directly observed by an entity such as Dominion.


By what Nimrod says, we can infer the (phalanx-like) Dominion doesn't have a corporal existence. (?)

By what Enigma says, existing outside of time and space leads to its inevitability. Once it comes into existence in any timeline, nothing can be done (that's why Charles decides to go to a contingency plan once Raspustin fails on a single timeline where there was a mutant-powered Moira).

The data page says a Dominion can't look inside the no place, which should extend to the White Hot Room (since both are “outiside of time and space”). The exception being when a Sinister ascends to a Dominion, they get consumed by Enigma even if they are in the WHR.

So, here’s the thing, Gillen is taking some limitations into consideration as well. Enigma is not omniscient. It can pick and choose the time and space at which it looks, but its attention is focused, not dispersed. How does that affect a consciousness which is telepathic? No idea.

I’d say, considering what we know, we can’t really predict where this is going. We just don’t know enough.

Maybe he’ll use this opportunity to tie Rachel’s birth to the 616-Jean who ascended? It’s possible. Maybe you’re fairly close to the idea.

I just can’t argue for or against it, you know?

I can only say I’d prefer if they wouldn’t go there.

I finally got to skim through Rise of the Powers of X #1. But, I was confused as to why Karima was wearing a helmet in space... Last I checked Omega Sentinel did not need to breathe.

[Grinning Soul]

I finally got to skim through Rise of the Powers of X #1. But, I was confused as to why Karima was wearing a helmet in space... Last I checked Omega Sentinel did not need to breathe.

Believe it or not, the helmet didn't even register to me! :D

[Havok83]

I finally got to skim through Rise of the Powers of X #1. But, I was confused as to why Karima was wearing a helmet in space... Last I checked Omega Sentinel did not need to breathe.

She wasnt. Karima isnt wearing a helmet at any point in that issue

[Grinning Soul]

She wasnt. Karima isnt wearing a helmet at any point in that issue

Oh, that makes sense! :D

--
@Micabe: Were you thinking of Cadena?

[Micabe]

@Grinning Soul, I'm so embarrassed They're both bald Wait?!? What's a Child of the Vault doing hanging out with a Sinister???

[Grinning Soul]

@Grinning Soul, I'm so embarrassed :o They're both bald :p Wait?!? What's a Child of the Vault doing hanging out with a Sinister???

Please, don't be embarrassed on my account. The fact I accepted Karima might have been wearing a helmet without my noticing it tells you the whole story. :D

As for Cadena, I suppose the idea was that different types of humans in that timeline worked behind the AI's backs and helped each other so they could reach post-humanity.

[Soulsword323]

This panel has always been so interesting to me. This was written before the retcon, Madelyne, and CC's bitterness. To see Claremont himself, early into his iconic run, imply they were evolving into two different people, and perhaps weren't as compatible as they once were as teenagers, is kind of fascinating. Especially seeing as how a lot of people feel very similarly today when it comes to Jean and Scott's relationship.

With the two sharing a rapport, I'm sure some would argue that on some level, Cyclops knew Jean was still alive, but I don't think it works too well. Seeing as how Jean herself also believes the other X-Men to be dead, and mourns them.

[Grinning Soul]

This panel has always been so interesting to me. This was written before the retcon, Madelyne, and CC's bitterness. To see Claremont himself, early into his iconic run, imply they were evolving into two different people, and perhaps weren't as compatible as they once were as teenagers, is kind of fascinating. Especially seeing as how a lot of people feel very similarly today when it comes to Jean and Scott's relationship.

With the two sharing a rapport, I'm sure some would argue that on some level, Cyclops knew Jean was still alive, but I don't think it works too well. Seeing as how Jean herself also believes the other X-Men to be dead, and mourns them.

They didn't have the rapport yet. He really thought Jean was dead at this point and was repressing it because he couldn't handle losing her.

[Devaishwarya]

In context I read those panels at the time to mean a couple of things...

1: Ororo's statement...The very natural growth and maturing of the characters into their adult selves...in a sense this was CC saying that these characters are not your (my) Dad's X-Men. He's been writing them as fully formed individual adults with very adult perspectives and sensibilities.

2: Scott's apathy to Jean's "death"...Was alluding to how Jean becoming the Phoenix was fundamentally changing her and subsequently their relationship. He specifically called back to the shuttle flight (and crash) where Jean emerged changed into something/someone new and different.

They're both right...She wasn't a girl anymore but she also wasn't the woman he fell in love with.

[Havok83]

This panel has always been so interesting to me. This was written before the retcon, Madelyne, and CC's bitterness. To see Claremont himself, early into his iconic run, imply they were evolving into two different people, and perhaps weren't as compatible as they once were as teenagers, is kind of fascinating. Especially seeing as how a lot of people feel very similarly today when it comes to Jean and Scott's relationship.

With the two sharing a rapport, I'm sure some would argue that on some level, Cyclops knew Jean was still alive, but I don't think it works too well. Seeing as how Jean herself also believes the other X-Men to be dead, and mourns them.

The rapport was established closer to the Dark Phoenix Saga after he was reunited with her