Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[Soulsword323]

They didn't have the rapport yet. He really thought Jean was dead at this point and was repressing it because he couldn't handle losing her.

The rapport was established closer to the Dark Phoenix Saga after he was reunited with her

That's right. The rapport wasn't established until after this scene, and doesn't factor in at all.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

This panel has always been so interesting to me. This was written before the retcon, Madelyne, and CC's bitterness. To see Claremont himself, early into his iconic run, imply they were evolving into two different people, and perhaps weren't as compatible as they once were as teenagers, is kind of fascinating. Especially seeing as how a lot of people feel very similarly today when it comes to Jean and Scott's relationship.

With the two sharing a rapport, I'm sure some would argue that on some level, Cyclops knew Jean was still alive, but I don't think it works too well. Seeing as how Jean herself also believes the other X-Men to be dead, and mourns them.

She got too bold and fiery for him lol.

[Grinning Soul]

That's right. The rapport wasn't established until after this scene, and doesn't factor in at all.

Yep. It's still BS that she wouldn't be able to feel their minds, considering she already had the Phoenix, though. :)

But it was not the first time they came up with a BS excuse and it wouldn't be the last. :)

NOTE: When Scott and Jean meet again, he tells her about how he reacted to her death and why (X-Men #129). I can send you the panels, if you want. Please, let me know. :)

[Havok83]

I wonder how man times Scott and Jean have "died" on each other. No wonder he hasnt accepted that she's truly gone in current continuity given how many times one of them is dead or presumed dead

[Omega_DCD]

Jean gets this rep, but truly all of the X-Men defy death...one of Claremont's recurring lines was "I was dead...I got better"

[Mercury]

Oh, don't worry. I get that real life gets in the way. Focus on it. Comics can wait.

Thank you for understanding!

I asked because it’s hard to talk about such a thing without agreeing on what it means. We’ve never been or sent a probe “outside of space and time” (to use the terminology Gillen has used) to know what happens for sure, so it’s highly conceptual. Moreover, I’d say it could lead to different implications.

But this is what's so exciting about Jean's mythos—reading it, contemplating it, discussing it as it unfolds and continues to remind us that the "highly conceptual" is intrinsic to it and her—isn't it? What excites me most about what Simonson, Gillen, and Duggan have collectively done, and which the latter two are still doing, are the possibilities they have laid bare. Moreover, I am thrilled that they have each honored Claremont's original vision and the collective vision of those who came after (i.e., Morrison, Pak, Palmiotti, Bendis, Bunn, and even Aaron [see AvX]) and adhered to his work with Jean. It's not just that they have underscored the "unbreakable" connection between her and Phoenix but that they have also underscored the mysteries that lie within her. Her mythos is in the best place it's been since Pak's Phoenix Endsong, dare I say better because she's in the process of returning to us, but I digress.

This discussion began because I presented the possibility that Jean's astral tryst with Scott could have been the catalyst for Rachel's conception in another timeline, and I maintain that it could have been. I mean, why not? If she can live as an entity of pure thought and reconstitute her body from nothing—if she can not only traverse the astral and cosmic spheres and beyond and control Phoenix and the White Hot Room and rewrite reality itself—why is it not possible for to have contributed to her "alternate reality" daughter's conception through one of the many facets of her own being, i.e., an "alternate reality" version of herself, especially when she has transcended reality and the laws and borders that bind reality? I've said this before: I love it when Jean's inherent power is layered with a level of mystery and esotericism. As readers, we shouldn't be able to completely figure out the nature and extent of her psyche and abilities or how she accomplishes certain things. And I think the best development to have come out of this era for her is the return to that mystery and esotericism.

Take Interstellar as an example.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

Whoever was helping the humans, couldn’t affect instants of time directly (that’s why they needed Cooper), because they had transcended time as we know it. So, they could create a construct inside an effing black hole, but they couldn’t be part of an instant in time. Fair to say, as powerful as they were, they had their limitations.

end of spoilers

And that’s why I was thinking of Jean’s limitations, once she’s “outside of space and time.”

But that was a story centered on ordinary mortals; on human beings. By virtue of Jean's mutant abilities and her connection to and with an utterly transcendent force that exists beyond the Great Beyond and skirts the peripheries of that which holds everything together, all at once—the Ground of All Being and Creating—Interstellar's rules do not apply to her. It's an interesting reference point, but not one that limits or contradicts her abilities in any way.

You described as her being integrated, so I thought we could use the analogy of geometry. As 3D beings, all of us are the sum of infinite 2D slices. Mathematically speaking, that’s how we become integrated (we’re the sum of our infinite parts). If that’s the case, if this “ascended Jean” (the 3D shape in the anology) is the sum -- the integration -- of those “fragments” (the 2D slices in the anology), the implication is that “ascended Jean” still can’t control the fragments. It’s a limitation that springs from the very definition of what she becomes.

Spoilers for Interstellar:
spoilers:

kinda like the “they” -- whoever is helping humanity -- in Interstellar. They’re powerful as AF, but not omnipotent. They have limitations).

end of spoilers

From this perspective, “ascended Jean” wouldn’t be able to affect 818-Jean alone (just like we can’t affect a single 2D slice of ours). If she was affecting one Jean, she should be affecting all of them. And since linear time doesn’t matter (for "ascended Jean"), it would be leading to the creation of several children between her “fragments” and their Scotts, at any point in their timeline, where linear time is a thing and conception could happen.

But this is the important part: unless the 2D/3D analogy makes sense to you, none of that matters.

Again, you are referencing and trying to apply rules to Jean that are simply irrelevant in her case. Please don't mistake my assertiveness here for rudeness or impatience. It's just...the "2D/3D analogy" does not apply here. It is too limited for someone who can and has literally existed as an entity of pure thought.

Which is why I thought we had to take a step back and agree on some definitions.

And I think we should continue to assess how we each define and view certain aspects of Jean's abilities and the metaphysical mythos they comprise! Not every discussion has to be resolved quickly and neatly with two people agreeing, agreeing to disagree, or proving one another wrong. The discussion can continue and unfold and morph along with what is revealed.

Back to the comics, we can look at what appeared in Rise of the Powers of X.

Here are some clues from the dialogue/data page:

. Nimrod: "Very well. One last fistfight before we wave goodbye to corporeal existance."

. Enigma: "Watching, I ensured he [Diamond Sinister] would never remember timelines when he discovered his peers or the Dominions attempts. I watched all of this happen as it must. I exist outside of time and space. I am as inevitable as the period at the end of this sentence. You are merely watching how I came to be. You are merely watching how I won."

. Rasputin: "I know Enigma could be anywhere. You can't tell where it's watching."

. Xavier: "The whole timeline falls apart, and Dominion ceases to be. It's cut off at the root. If we kill off Moira before her gift activates when she's 13, it all goes away and Krakoa will never have been or never will be."

. Data Page: "Moira's No-Place, transformed and improved by Krakoa itself, under guidance from Cypher's gift. It is developed to exist outside time and space. As such, impossible to be directly observed by an entity such as Dominion.


By what Nimrod says, we can infer the (phalanx-like) Dominion doesn't have a corporal existence. (?)

By what Enigma says, existing outside of time and space leads to its inevitability. Once it comes into existence in any timeline, nothing can be done (that's why Charles decides to go to a contingency plan once Raspustin fails on a single timeline where there was a mutant-powered Moira).

The data page says a Dominion can't look inside the no place, which should extend to the White Hot Room (since both are “outiside of time and space”). The exception being when a Sinister ascends to a Dominion, they get consumed by Enigma even if they are in the WHR.

So, here’s the thing, Gillen is taking some limitations into consideration as well. Enigma is not omniscient. It can pick and choose the time and space at which it looks, but its attention is focused, not dispersed. How does that affect a consciousness which is telepathic? No idea.

I’d say, considering what we know, we can’t really predict where this is going. We just don’t know enough.

Maybe he’ll use this opportunity to tie Rachel’s birth to the 616-Jean who ascended? It’s possible. Maybe you’re fairly close to the idea.

I just can’t argue for or against it, you know?

I can only say I’d prefer if they wouldn’t go there.

I'll get back to this part of your post later. I simply don't have the bandwidth to branch out into talking about Enigma, although I believe a discussion on this is worth engaging in and pertinent to the discussion about Jean.

@Mercury:

When I talk about 2D and 3D, I'm not talking about spirit. I'm talking about *matter* which exists in a space without height, the 2D space.

I hope this makes it easier to understand the 2D/3D things. 3D things are formed (integrated, in a mathematical sense) from their infinite 2D slices.



Again, it's just an *analogy* of infinite parts that are integrated to form a whole.

EDITED: the point of the analogy was to understand what she could do in relation to her own "fragments", not to everything else.

I understand "2D/3D things, both literally and conceptually. I also think it's important to highlight that when it comes to Jean, at a certain point, you can't help but discuss the spiritual and metaphysical. It's simply par for the course when discussing her.

Once I've recharged, I'll return to this discussion. As always, thank you for the stimulating insights and ideas!

[Mercury]

Ah, the good old DSM! I remember when it was "DSM-3", which lasted for many years was supposed to be the final, all-inclusive version, lol! Then of course, we had the DSM-3R for awhile. Now I believe it is up to version 5, with them saying, "No version 6 is planned", but eventually, it will go up. Let's not even go into ICD or CPT (with CPT being the lesser of the 3 evils), lol!

Exactly! We're up to the DSM-5-TR (i.e., Text Revision) edition. Ultimately, the DSM facilitates categorizing, contextualizing, and communicating about—in general terms—what is deemed to be aberrant affect, behavior, and mental processes. It's "a dictionary" or "a set of labels," to quote former NIMH Director Thomas Insel, but certainly not a scientific document. But enough of that.

This panel has always been so interesting to me. This was written before the retcon, Madelyne, and CC's bitterness. To see Claremont himself, early into his iconic run, imply they were evolving into two different people, and perhaps weren't as compatible as they once were as teenagers, is kind of fascinating. Especially seeing as how a lot of people feel very similarly today when it comes to Jean and Scott's relationship.

With the two sharing a rapport, I'm sure some would argue that on some level, Cyclops knew Jean was still alive, but I don't think it works too well. Seeing as how Jean herself also believes the other X-Men to be dead, and mourns them.

It not only speaks to Jean and Scott's growth as individual characters, and the distancing between two people inherent in such growth, but also about Scott's grief. One of Kübler-Ross's five stages of grief is denial. As GS mentions below, "he couldn't handle losing her," and so denied his grief, which he later intimates to her on the Blackbird after their reunion. This was made easy by all of the challenges and adversaries the X-Men faced after they were separated from Jean, Hank, and Xavier.

They didn't have the rapport yet. He really thought Jean was dead at this point and was repressing it because he couldn't handle losing her.

Exactly.

In context I read those panels at the time to mean a couple of things...

1: Ororo's statement...The very natural growth and maturing of the characters into their adult selves...in a sense this was CC saying that these characters are not your (my) Dad's X-Men. He's been writing them as fully formed individual adults with very adult perspectives and sensibilities.

2: Scott's apathy to Jean's "death"...Was alluding to how Jean becoming the Phoenix was fundamentally changing her and subsequently their relationship. He specifically called back to the shuttle flight (and crash) where Jean emerged changed into something/someone new and different.

They're both right...She wasn't a girl anymore but she also wasn't the woman he fell in love with.

I agree with both your points, i.e., I think they, along with Scott's grief and denial, all played a part in his admission to Ororo.

The rapport was established closer to the Dark Phoenix Saga after he was reunited with her

It's established in Uncanny X-Men #133 that Jean created the psi-link with Scott after they consummated their love on the butte in Arizona.

I wonder how man times Scott and Jean have "died" on each other. No wonder he hasnt accepted that she's truly gone in current continuity given how many times one of them is dead or presumed dead

Exactly. And I think it's quite a beautiful literary brushstroke by Duggan.

[Grinning Soul]

@Mercury: I'm not sure what else you'd like to discuss about Jean and Rachel's conception.

Since we don't have the "official" definitions from the comics, it's really about what you think and what I think.

However, I actually don't think anything in particular because... frankly? I don't care. I'm one of the fans who would prefer the whole thing to be less convoluted. I was trying to go along, but you seem to have everything figured out already...

I honestly don't know what else I could contribute here... If you can explain what you'd like me to do, I can try. Right now, I really don't know what else to say. I'm sorry.

[Mercury]

P.S. Scott makes it clear here why he wasn't properly grieving when Ororo asked him about Jean:

@Mercury: I'm not sure what else you'd like to discuss about Jean and Rachel's conception. Since we don't have the "official" definitions from the comics, it's really about what you think and what I think.

Well, that's what our whole discussion has been about—what you think and what I think—right?

However, I actually don't think anything in particular because... frankly? I don't care. I'm one of the fans who would prefer the whole thing to be less convoluted. I was trying to go along, but you seem to have everything figured out already...

Firstly, if you don't care, it seems like you may have been through with our discussion before it began. Secondly, I'm one of those fans who would rather integrate what's been written with what's continuing to be written, along with my personal views. Ultimately, the writers have always left behind and continue to leave behind enough room 'in between the panels' to rectify what seems contradictory and make sense of what seemingly makes no sense about our favorite characters. It makes for a much more pleasurable and intellectually active experience. When a character behaves in ways I deem uncharacteristic, I delve into their history even more. I scour their mythos for explanations for their behavior and usually find them!

For example, why did Jean revert back to her Marvel Girl garb and moniker at the start of the Krakoan era? Some fans fall on the crutch of blaming and attacking writers and editors for this. However, all you have to do is look at what happened between Phoenix Resurrection and Age of X-Man and her subsequent behavior makes sense. She came back to life to face a world that had changed more than it had after her return in X-Factor. She learned more about herself and her loved ones—some good things and some truly awful things—and she was weary and left reeling from additional trauma. When she was offered respite in paradise, she just wanted to return to a time of innocence, before her world had truly been turned upside down. And yet, she couldn't, which is what her affair with Logan symbolizes to me. She was messy during this era, but I understand it and love her all the more for it.

Anyway, I digressed. To your point about my having "everything figured out already," I think I said or perhaps merely implied the opposite. I don't have it all figured out. I'm simply open to the possibilities.

I honestly don't know what else I could contribute here... If you can explain what you'd like me to do, I can try. Right now, I really don't know what else to say. I'm sorry.

You can contribute only that which you feel you can contribute. I can't make you do that.

[Grinning Soul]

Firstly, if you don't care, it seems like you may have been through with our discussion before it began.

If that was the case, I wouldn't have began.

I did it, because I care about *you*.

[Mercury]

If that was the case, I wouldn't have began.

I did it, because I care about *you*.

omfg…

🥹
♥️

We can keep discussing this as much or as little as you'd like. I still want to get back to your points about Enigma. I'll probably do so this weekend, after a get through some writing assignments. And remember this: The insights you bring to public discussions are wonderful. They nourish this thread and overall community. Don't ever rob us of them. Keep sharing them!

[davetvs]

What is even going on lol

[Devaishwarya]

Jean is lost and we are trying to fill the cosmic-sized void she left behind.

[Mercury]

Nightcap: How did I miss this gorgeous Jean redesign! Night!

https://twitter.com/irose_artoo/stat...29241757000073

[Phoenixx9]

Exactly! We're up to the DSM-5-TR (i.e., Text Revision) edition. Ultimately, the DSM facilitates categorizing, contextualizing, and communicating about—in general terms—what is deemed to be aberrant affect, behavior, and mental processes. It's "a dictionary" or "a set of labels," to quote former NIMH Director Thomas Insel, but certainly not a scientific document. But enough of that...

Exactly. I am so glad that I currenty don't need to worry about the DSM, ICD or CPT! Life is good, lol.