Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[andreikes]

I don't really think it would be a deus ex machinia the way things are turning out. Part of the plot of Forever centers around how to get the Phoenix back in action and the last cover even hints at Hope having to sacrifice herself. Plus the final solicit hints that the outcome hints at the final battle ultimately being decided at who can make the right choice. Given what past comics say this individual is hinted to be Moira.

I don't know if the Phoenix is really going to die at the end. Maybe the force will rest in the White Hot Room after the battle with Enigma but I hope Jean rejoins her fellow mutants on Earth. It's a curious choice on why throughout Fall of X Jean is wearing her standard superhero uniform rather than a Phoenix one.

Maybe Hope sacrifices herself for Jean and in the end she makes her come back. And it would be a good opportunity for a solo of Jean solving and rebuilding the white hot room or something else alone. Without wolverine and cyke

[Havok83]

I don't really think it would be a deus ex machinia the way things are turning out. Part of the plot of Forever centers around how to get the Phoenix back in action and the last cover even hints at Hope having to sacrifice herself. Plus the final solicit hints that the outcome hints at the final battle ultimately being decided at who can make the right choice. Given what past comics say this individual is hinted to be Moira.

I don't know if the Phoenix is really going to die at the end. Maybe the force will rest in the White Hot Room after the battle with Enigma but I hope Jean rejoins her fellow mutants on Earth. It's a curious choice on why throughout Fall of X Jean is wearing her standard superhero uniform rather than a Phoenix one.

Is it? She's accepted it but hasnt quite merged with the PF and she's tehcnically still dead. If and when she were to wear the PF costume, it should be a big moment and not one followed by her being a vegetable drooling and mouthing off incoherent statements for a few moments. I wouldnt have wanted that for Jean. The Phoenix represents power and nothing about Jean has been that throughout Fall of X.

FYI, she did appear in one page of Immortal in her Phoenix costume but i beleive that was an error that wasnt fixed. It was when WHR Apocalypse was firs seen with her chained up

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Apparently by @JSwayArt, if anyone needs the artist


Reminds me of some other piece(s)/art styles but I can't think of which ones.

[Mercury]

Never stop what?

You know exactly what, you little devil.

All of this.

I feel energized and excited again for the X-men especially after the release date for X-men 97 and with the Krakoa conclusion (for Jean's role - not that the era is ending). I admit the Fall of X has been tough for me to wait out except for a few books. I will keep an open mind with the Brevoort era for sure. If anything us x-fans should be used to change.

Thank you, one of my twin flames on this forum, along with Phoenixx9. Keep the hope and enthusiasm alive and always look at the big picture. She began this era using her Marvel Girl garb and moniker and is ending it transcending and saving all that lives. What an arc.

"Now you shall deal with me, O Enigma and all the Phoenix powers of H.E.L.L.!"

Perfect, CU! Just add a "Bwahahahahaha!"to it. As I touted early in 2023, The Phoenix shall soar in 2024!

You two are too cute. I love the playful and joyful innocence you bring to this thread. Never stop being and doing that.

That's corny as hell LL! -- You two are killin' me here

You could learn something from them, Micabe. We all can. :hug:

Now and Forever is Gillen's theme for Jean. Not only was it repeated in Immortal #17, but its what the Progenitor told Jean, "you are the Phoenix, now and forever" and the solit to AXE X-Men was "what part of now and forever don't you understand?" In the solit for Rise #5, Jean is referred to as "one who is now and forever."

All of this. Some fans may not consider this theme all that important. That's ironic, though, considering how some of those same fans were whining not more than two years ago about Jean's legacy as Phoenix being ignored and made obsolete. In either case, Gillen is doing more than simply having Jean jump through a series of proverbial obstacle course challenges while narrating it with flowery language. Don't get me wrong; I love that kind of storytelling and would be thrilled to have Jean featured in such a tale. Actually, we sort of got that with Simonson's miniseries but with a lot more emotional oomph.

However, what Gillen is highlighting is something grander—that is, the breadth and scope of Jean's psyche, inherent power, and intrinsic connection to and singular influence over "a primal force second only to that of the Creator." This requires a slow build-up, especially if it's to pass the test of time so that there is no doubt left afterward about who exactly Jean Grey is. And he's doing this not by depicting her as inert and comatose, as some have referred to her thus far, but by underscoring—without cheaply revealing—the mystery behind her great power.

After all, Gillen is picking up threads Simonson began weaving in her miniseries, where she revealed that Jean is anything but inert and comatose. Rather, she is in communion with Phoenix and the White Hot Room—with herself—on a level that transcends what those around her, populating the peripheral or superficial levels of the White Hot Room, are capable of comprehending. Far from dying, she is undergoing a regenerative process to which she is no stranger, and that is not meant for the eyes of others. The interference of Mother Righteous has been but a mere hiccup in this process.

At least it's appearing to not be another "grrrrrrrr Phoenix = bad, Jean is for shipping only" story like...Now and forever.

Color me shocked, but that's the spirit, Kitty.

Mine is being delivered on Monday!

I'm glad you ordered a copy! I love it. I read it again and adore this story.

Much as I LOVE Jean and Phoenix, I hope we don’t just get a dues ex machina ending to it all, much as Phoenix is supremely powerful.

Anyone else think it might end with death of Phoenix, we’ve already been told Phoenix is dying (which in itself makes no sense as she dies to be reborn), which is why future solicits show Jean in her current uniform with no Phoenix emblem anywhere?

I don't think so. I think now that Jean has embraced her destiny and purpose as Phoenix—after she defeats Enigma and brings life back to mutants—she will allow that facet of herself to rest and take charge of cosmic and transcendent matters from the White Hot Room and beyond. But she will remain fully aware and accepting of the fact that her bond with and identity as Phoenix is unbreakable. And, of course, with time, another adventure—another time of challenge and despair—will come and require her to tap into this facet of herself.

Maybe the force will rest in the White Hot Room after the battle with Enigma but I hope Jean rejoins her fellow mutants on Earth.

Exactly this.

It doesnt appear like that will be the case. Despite Gillen taking his time to uild up the Phoenix, he is also building this up as a true team effort. No one part can take down the Dominion/Enigma alone. Jean herself is nothing without the rest doing the legwork right now as she has been incapacitated for months

Jean as Phoenix required "true team effort" to repair the M'kraan Crystal in Uncanny X-Men, to rewrite reality in New X-Men, and to return to the White Hot Room in Phoenix Endsong. Doing so here would only be echoing and tipping the hat to those iconic stories.

To me, Rachel asking about how things were going in the White Hot Room, was her way of asking about Jean/Phoenix. Maybe it was too emotionally raw to ask about Jean specifically, considering they likely know that she is still dying.

Besides, Rachel knows first hand that you can't keep a Phoenix down. Of course this time might be a bit different with the possibility of the Phoenix and the White Hot Room being destroyed altogether. But I'm sure Rachel has faith that things are going to turn around.

Also, iirc, one of the solicits for X-Men Forever mentions "a warm family reunion," which is probably when we will see the emotions flow between Jean and Rachel.

Maybe Hope sacrifices herself for Jean and in the end she makes her come back.

Gillen presumably seeded this in Immortal X-Men. Besides, considering that Jean warned Emma about Hope's emergence from the White Hot Room and that there's a solid argument to be made that Jean was responsible for sending and maybe even creating Hope, later empowering her during the climax to AvX, it would be a great full circle moment.

And it would be a good opportunity for a solo of Jean solving and rebuilding the white hot room or something else alone. Without wolverine and cyke

This would be wonderful. And I wouldn't count out another Jean miniseries in the very near future...

The Phoenix represents power and nothing about Jean has been that throughout Fall of X.

You must've missed the Hellfire Gala issue, Jean Grey #4, and X-Men #30.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I wouldn't count out another mini

It might not necessarily be Jean-related, but I wouldn't either. What have you heard?

[Havok83]

You must've missed the Hellfire Gala issue, Jean Grey #4, and X-Men #30.

No, I didnt and you know I havent

Hellfire Gala - that was before Fall of X
Jean Grey #4 - Still dead. Not really a power display by her but we see her looking on as an observer
X-Men 30 - Jean appeared in a dream and did nothing but make love and speak in riddles to Scott. She's still drooling on a table in the WHR

I stand by what I wrote. Jean has largely been incapacitated for the bulk of Fall of X and isnt portrayed as the all powerful active player that she tends to be when we see her merged with Phoenix. When she's ready to get tagged in, only then would I expect to see her wearing the costume. Nothing prior has really warranted that as we havent had a moment thats felt earned yet

[Icefanatic]

I don't know why people are saying Jean isn't doing anything, she's analyzing her memories, which is literally the most important thing there is to do!

See, when the timeline was rewritten prior to the time-displaced 05 arriving in the present, Jean was dead and safe outside of time in the White Hot Room.

The temporal aspect of the Phoenix was as affected by the change as everyone else as it exists in time. If the Phoenix had simply resurrected Jean from the White Hot Room we would have gotten OG Jean back and she would have quickly noticed all the things that were wrong with the current timeline, even more than most could given her gift of telepathy. Instead, the Phoenix used Jeen as a template, thus creating an adult Jean true to the existing timeline. But that Jean died and now Jean is back in the White Hot Room, again connected to her larger self that exists outside of time, only there is a problem...

She should now have two sets of memories. Most of them identical but with certain key differences. I believe Mercury posted a scan of one of them with dominant/dormant emotions being swapped...

So Jean is literally on overload right now as she compares, quite possibly, every single moment of two entire lifetimes! I don't expect Jean to awaken until she is done with that and has come to some sort of conclusion...

[Wiccan]

Is it? She's accepted it but hasnt quite merged with the PF and she's tehcnically still dead. If and when she were to wear the PF costume, it should be a big moment and not one followed by her being a vegetable drooling and mouthing off incoherent statements for a few moments. I wouldnt have wanted that for Jean. The Phoenix represents power and nothing about Jean has been that throughout Fall of X.

From the way Mother Righteous talks about her and the Phoenix and how what happens to her affects the WHR itself, I think she's already "merged" with the Phoenix ever since the end of her mini (though I guess only in a spiritual sense since she's not physically alive).

[Askani's Flame]

I don't know why people are saying Jean isn't doing anything, she's analyzing her memories, which is literally the most important thing there is to do!

See, when the timeline was rewritten prior to the time-displaced 05 arriving in the present, Jean was dead and safe outside of time in the White Hot Room.

The temporal aspect of the Phoenix was as affected by the change as everyone else as it exists in time. If the Phoenix had simply resurrected Jean from the White Hot Room we would have gotten OG Jean back and she would have quickly noticed all the things that were wrong with the current timeline, even more than most could given her gift of telepathy. Instead, the Phoenix used Jeen as a template, thus creating an adult Jean true to the existing timeline. But that Jean died and now Jean is back in the White Hot Room, again connected to her larger self that exists outside of time, only there is a problem...

She should now have two sets of memories. Most of them identical but with certain key differences. I believe Mercury posted a scan of one of them with dominant/dormant emotions being swapped...

So Jean is literally on overload right now as she compares, quite possibly, every single moment of two entire lifetimes! I don't expect Jean to awaken until she is done with that and has come to some sort of conclusion...

When was the timeline rewritten like this?

[Icefanatic]

When was the timeline rewritten like this?

That is a bone of some contention.

It's definite that the point of inflection for the change was at, or before, the Dawn of Man. The debate is over whether Eva Bell caused it in her journeys through time in the two-part story from Uncanny X-Men Annual #1(2013) and All-New X-Men Annual #1(2013), or if her journeys simply helped reveal it(and people thought there was no point to that story even existing...).

I've gone back and forth on it myself, reviewed all the evidence in all the connected issues and I just don't think it can be definitively proven either way. Not at this point.

It's all so frustrating because a lot of us who had been working on putting together all the clues had thought that Jean coming back from the dead would be the reveal point, instead the Phoenix inexplicably used Jeen as a template which created an adult-version that is in harmony with the existing timeline, and then we got Krakoa which has only intensified the aberrations.

But now Jean is back in the White Hot Room, doing her 'memory work', comparing and contrasting two lives lived. And here is where the stakes get higher...

Because if the change wasn't an accident of Eva Bell's journeys, but was merely revealed by them, then someone or something did it deliberately. Which makes Jean a massive threat to them, perhaps the only threat that even exists.

[Askani's Flame]

That is a bone of some contention.

It's definite that the point of inflection for the change was at, or before, the Dawn of Man. The debate is over whether Eva Bell caused it in her journeys through time in the two-part story from Uncanny X-Men Annual #1(2013) and All-New X-Men Annual #1(2013), or if her journeys simply helped reveal it(and people thought there was no point to that story even existing...).

I've gone back and forth on it myself, reviewed all the evidence in all the connected issues and I just don't think it can be definitively proven either way. Not at this point.

It's all so frustrating because a lot of us who had been working on putting together all the clues had thought that Jean coming back from the dead would be the reveal point,instead the Phoenix inexplicably used Jeen as a template which created an adult-version that is in harmony with the existing timeline, and then we got Krakoa which has only intensified the aberrations.

But now Jean is back in the White Hot Room, doing her 'memory work', comparing and contrasting two lives lived. And here is where the stakes get higher...

Because if the change wasn't an accident of Eva Bell's journeys, but was merely revealed by them, then someone or something did it deliberately. Which makes Jean a massive threat to them, perhaps the only threat that even exists.

So what I'm reading is that the bold is conjecture not based in actual panel confirmation or writer/editor statements. As you say. I mean no disrespect, but having read those issues previously and recapping I never found there to be anything that said this was now 616a because of Eva. It felt she returned to her timepoint with knowledge of times and histories that no longer exist. That moment was a fixed point where she lefts moments before and seemingly had returned to her true time that was unaltered. Bendis wasn't about to create a company wide timeline change mere moments before he left the X-franchise.

So really then this whole idea of the PF using Jeen as a template to rebuild adult Jean (not supported in the comics), Krakoa timeline abberations (not supported in the comics) and Jean comparing multiple lives (which is not being shown even remotely in the actual comics) is conjecture and speculative. Ok, now I am less confused. Thank you.

[davetvs]

Jean comparing multiple lives (which is not being shown even remotely in the actual comics) is conjecture and speculative.

Isn't this what the Jean Grey miniseries was about?

[SugarMan]

I think in the Jean mini, she was attempting to create an alternate reality where she did things differently, hoping it would be for the better. She was trying to fix a specific "mistake" as she saw it. But each time it turned out to be worse than the present timeline. When finally confronted by the Phoenix aspect of herself, it was decided that she already did what she was supposed to do, and furthermore, she would face her future alongside/with the Phoenix. I think that was the only part of Jean that was functioning, while her body was in that confused state in the White Hot Room. She was even aware of what was taking place around her (in the WHR), and was able to allow Hope to access her Phoenix powers through her body in the WHR. In the end, Phoenix also questioned if whatever she did was working, and also stated that she was so sure of herself. This will lead to more revelations, they haven't shown us the full Jean/Phoenix hand yet. But when she comes back, she will be as she was always supposed to be.

[Mercury]

I think in the Jean mini, she was attempting to create an alternate reality where she did things differently, hoping it would be for the better. She was trying to fix a specific "mistake" as she saw it. But each time it turned out to be worse than the present timeline. When finally confronted by the Phoenix aspect of herself, it was decided that she already did what she was supposed to do, and furthermore, she would face her future alongside/with the Phoenix. I think that was the only part of Jean that was functioning, while her body was in that confused state in the White Hot Room. She was even aware of what was taking place around her (in the WHR), and was able to allow Hope to access her Phoenix powers through her body in the WHR. In the end, Phoenix also questioned if whatever she did was working, and also stated that she was so sure of herself. This will lead to more revelations, they haven't shown us the full Jean/Phoenix hand yet. But when she comes back, she will be as she was always supposed to be.

Just popping in during a brief break in writing yet another paper—😭—to ptopose this as post of the month. Perfectly and succinctly stated, SugarMan. 🤌🏻🔥

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...22773011104061

[Icefanatic]

So what I'm reading is that the bold is conjecture not based in actual panel confirmation or writer/editor statements. As you say. I mean no disrespect, but having read those issues previously and recapping I never found there to be anything that said this was now 616a because of Eva. It felt she returned to her timepoint with knowledge of times and histories that no longer exist. That moment was a fixed point where she lefts moments before and seemingly had returned to her true time that was unaltered. Bendis wasn't about to create a company wide timeline change mere moments before he left the X-franchise.

So really then this whole idea of the PF using Jeen as a template to rebuild adult Jean (not supported in the comics), Krakoa timeline abberations (not supported in the comics) and Jean comparing multiple lives (which is not being shown even remotely in the actual comics) is conjecture and speculative. Ok, now I am less confused. Thank you.

It's more a matter of fans taking disparate things that don't make any kind of sense separately and putting them together to make a very clear picture.

Okay, I'm going to go off of memory because I simply don't have the time right now to look everything up. So, Bendis tells a story with Wolverine that breaks time itself, thus allowing time to be rewritten instead of just creating branching timelines. And fans started commenting that different books seemed to be happening in different timelines.

The main timeline had already been altered off-panel prior to the publication of All-New X-Men #1. The sequences in the past were set during an actual issue of the original X-Men series, with the art and dialogue heavily referenced as a result. Yet there were glaring anomalies that did not match the original timeline. So most fans that took note of such things knew it had to be a different reality. But then the Time-Displaced Cyclops and the Adult-Version were shown to be the same person. Some fans speculated that since 'time was broken' that time itself couldn't tell they had to be different people. Later TD-05 Iceman was shown to be the same as his adult counterpart and eventually all of the TD-05 were shown to be the same people as the 'Adult versions'. And fans concluded, with everything obviously wrong with that, that that meant that the TD-05 had to be the original X-Men fans had been reading about for decades because they were the same people as the adult versions now appearing in the comics. If you can't see the obvious flaw in that reasoning you haven't consumed enough science fiction.

Near the end of Eva Bell's journeys through time she goes back to the Dawn of Man, then launches herself through time all the way to the far future, being careful not to interact with anything or change anything. After a brief stay in the future she comes back to the present. Along that unbroken journey through time we see various time-periods, including artifacts from Old Man Logan's era. Fans quickly seized on that as a MASSIVE MISTAKE, because Old Man Logan's timeline was emphatically not part of the 616 timeline. During the telling of the original OML tale, the Hulk had engaged in cannibalism and incest and fans balked at that being a possible future for the 616. Both Marvel and the writer assured fans it wasn't, but instead was an alternate reality that diverged at some point far in the past. Yet it was now being shown as a part of the current timeline.

In the OML ongoing writer Jeff Lemire did a story called Past Lives, where OML uses a villain to send his spirit back to his own timeline, inhabiting his body at various points. The villain plots to betray him and use his empty body for his own plans. We see OML fighting in the war of 1812, almost a century before 616 Logan would be born. We see his first encounter with the Hulk, which differs significantly from the 616 version. At one point he tells his Iceman in his past what has happened and to bring help to him in the present. Fans at CBR(and to be fair other places) found that laughable, as there was no way the current Iceman could even know of that to help. But then who shows up the next issue to help but the Adult Version of Iceman and Jeen, with Bobby talking about remembering Logan telling him that. There was a five-page thread here at CBR with fans baffled at how, after a year-and-a-half of writing OML, Jeff Lemire somehow momentarily forgot he wasn't writing the 616 Wolverine when he wrote that scene with Iceman.

Then there's Astonishing X-Men where Iceman froze the world while defeating the X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four... It's never been referenced anywhere else with one sole exception, Sina Grace's Iceman run, where Daken was shown to be the only person who remembers it even happening, Daken who was resurrected in the future of a timeline that was destroyed. Not only were some of the events in AXM not referenced other places, events other places didn't seem to be happening there, either. Writer Marjorie Liu wanted to use the TD-05 in her big Iceman story, but was not only prohibited from using them in her stories, she was prohibited from even mentioning they had come to the present. And when fans expressed concern that AXM was happening in an alternate reality because Northstar's much-hyped marriage had happened there, Marvel reassured them that the events depicted in AXM were happening in the main/616 reality. So what did that mean for the stories with the TD-05?

There's lots more but I don't have the time and it would take a bunch of posts. Basically a lot of thing that fans are saying don't make sense or are huge and completely inexplicable mistakes actually fit together quite nicely and make a ton of sense when they do.

And as for the Phoenix NOT using Jeen as a template to create an adult Jean, what did you think 'from your ashes' meant?

Why do you think Jean is going through her memories like that, and why do some of them clearly differ from 616 continuity in deliberate ways? Yes that is conjecture, but it is conjecture that makes sense.