Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[Micabe]

LOL...the Storm fans were not claiming Kymera when she was here

Like hell, they didn't...

[Mercury]

she cant birth Rachel, at least not our Rachel. She can give birth to a daughter and give her the same name but it wouldnt be the same character

I think you missed or purposefully overlooked a few posts.

I get the feeling that if Kymera and Kendell found themselves on Earth-616 no one here would complain or cry those two are not Ororo's children.

WTF?

::sigh:: Good night. (For real.)

[Micabe]

As I recall the fans went wild with this...

X-Men v4 #14 (2014)

X-Men v4 #17 (2014)

[Subliminally]

Like hell, they didn't...

Why the hell would we want to claim that mutt who's conversation with Storm was about how she was a bad mother, because she did great things for everyone else?

Girl bye.

[Subliminally]

As I recall the fans went wild with this...

X-Men v4 #17 (2014)

Yeah, she did do world changing things... on Arakko.

[Micabe]

Why the hell would we want to claim that mutt who's conversation with Storm was about how she was a bad mother, because she did great things for everyone else?

Girl bye.

Denial is a powerful thing... At least you admit to the conversation

[Subliminally]

Denial is a powerful thing... At least you admit to the conversation

There was never any conversation though. I've seen more affection towards Major X. That should tell you all you need to know.

[Micabe]

There was never any conversation though. I've seen more affection towards Major X. That should tell you all you need to know.

If this isn't a conversation between Kymera and Ororo then perhaps you can educate me as to what it was...

[Subliminally]

If this isn't a conversation between Kymera and Ororo then perhaps you can educate me as to what it was...

Wrong conversation. I'm referring to the one you seem to think Storm fans collectively had in which we agreed we actually claimed Kymera.

[Grinning Soul]

See my post above. Anyway, I respect your opinion. However, as I've noted, I simply don't see Jean's alternate versions as alternate. I see her as an omniversal constant, as Claremont described her, and The Original X-Men #1 (2023) implied that she is. At a certain point after Jean’s ascension(s), the laws of spacetime bend and blur, and there is no distinction between her “alternate” selves…

“And there are other worlds where you—where WE—did just that.”

I’m not saying you’re wrong, because I can’t say that. It might very well be as you see it.

But when “the laws of spacetime bend and blur” happens… a lot of really weird things also happen. Things that are hard to even put in words because language uses a structure that takes linear time into consideration (that’s why we have verb tenses, it’s to put a chronological context to the action).

I could try to get a little into it, but it’s going to get people here screaming. Moreover, every time I tried talking about it, people in the conversation had a lot of trouble wrapping their heads around it.

Even my partner, who not only is *extremely* intelligent, *loves* thought experiments like I do, had trouble following because you kinda have to somewhat let go of logic, exactly because human logic is formulated as cause and consequence, and the very concept of cause and consequence implies that time is linear. (EDITED: what I mean is that it's *not* a matter of intelligence or interest in the conversation. The difficulty is that you have to re-frame the very way in which you're thinking. You have to let go of instinctual understanding of chronological order, cause and consequence, etc... It's not only hard as hell, it's uncomfortable).

[He and I tried to talk about it recently because we watched Interstellar. Have you watched it?]

So, I’m not trying to be dismissive, okay? It’s just really hard to get into these concepts without considering their complexity.

Things are not as much as a given as they look like. When you say “there is no distinction between her “alternate” selves…” or use the word “fragments”… There is already an implication in there.

And I’m really *not* blaming you because you’re also using language that takes linear time into consideration. It’s not your fault. It just shows you how hard it is to even think of those concepts.

Good night! ❤️

Sorry, Mercury, I didn’t see this post or I’d have wished you a goodnight.

Sorry I forgot my manners and didn’t wish you goodnight myself. It was really late here and I was tired.

I never said they "need help conceiving," only that this particular "dream," or instance of transcendent reality, is instrumental in the conception of Rachel, herself an anomaly, like her mother. In other words, Jean's awakening to her vast self in current continuity both coincides with and catalyzes Jean and Scott's conception of Rachel. They could have had another child, maybe even a different version of Rachel, had transcendent Jean not been involved.

And it’s in that word that you have the problem.

Because *every* “moment” should coincide. So if that dream is a catalyst to the conception of a Rachel, you should have Rachels being created in all timelines where a Scott had sex with a Jean (because it doesn’t matter if it "(is/has/had/will/--) happen(ing/s/ed)" ten years ago, right now or twenty years in the future). You see why? Don’t dismiss it. Again, you have to kind let go a bit of logic to see it.

I don't understand the question but I'll try to answer it. Jean being outside of time now allows her to integrate all of her fragments, i.e., the "alternate versions" of herself, and grants her influence over them because she, at her most unified, comprises them. It's that simple. And being unified, her actions and the actions of her fragments are more potent across the multiverse.

I think I answered it. (I think!)

Seriously, please, watch (or rewatch) Interstellar when you have time.

Do you remember some posts ago, when I said a “future” Jean could be contacting Scott?

That’s a “future” Jean from 616-Scott perspective because he is “stuck” in time.

Those Jean “fragments” are also “stuck” in time. They can’t really be “integrated”.

The consciousness that is “outside time” doesn’t work like our consciousness *because* it’s outside time.

To use a geometric analogy, it’d be like us trying to interact with a 2D creature. We’re 3D. We can’t.

It’d be like saying that because I’m a 3D creature, I can control each infinite 2D slice that makes up my body (because I'm "integrated" as a 3D being).

You get what I mean?

I think whatever the reasons, the resulting impact could be quite beautiful. It connects Earth-616 Jean and Scott to Rachel even more profoundly, erases the "rape-y" issue you mentioned, and would coincide nicely with Rachel's appearance in X-Men Forever and reunion with her mother.

Again, I’m not sure what is Gillen’s and Duggan’s understanding of what it means for something to be “outside time,” so I can’t tell you that your idea is not possible.

I’m just saying it makes things really weird and I’m not looking forward to explain that to new fans.

So, since you gave birth to this idea, you explain it to them.

And you do it “now and forever.” :D


--

Again, I'm sorry. I'm *really* not trying to be dismissive or a "know-it-all". I'm aware it might come across this way, but that's really not the intention, okay?

[Micabe]

What title and issue am I looking at here?

[Grinning Soul]

What title and issue am I looking at here?

The last one. X-Men #30.

[Exodus]

I cannot help myself and see this explicit display of heteronormative sexuality as a way to retcon the open relationship in the early phase of Krakoa.

yes, we got it. Jean and Scott are happily monogamously married and committed to each other even in death.......*rolleyes

[Micabe]

The last one. X-Men #30.

Ah, thanks... I'm out of Grog so I have yet to read it

[Devaishwarya]

LOL...the Storm fans were not claiming Kymera when she was here

(I do not know why Storm is always mentioned where she is not a factor in the conversation but that clearly is someone's cross to bear) No we weren't. We don't want that kind of assness and fockery that Jean went through for Storm. They're from a future alternate timelines...but they have absolutely no bearing/relation/relevancy to our 616 Storm because she didn't (hasn't) given birth to them so we really don't care. It's just that simple.

Regarding Jean...I'm sorry if this comes across as dismissive but...some of you just love to overcomplicate her narrative. And while having a hundred different writers adding their ridiculous spins to it (even Claremont himself is guilty of adding to the dumbfoolery) doesn't help make things any clearer or easier, I understand the need to try to "pick sense from nonsense".

As a Jean stan my personal take on it is simply this...Yes, she as Phoenix is "multiversal/multidimensional/existing across time and space yaddayaddayadda" as was described but as shown 616 Jean is just that, 616 Jean. The experiences of those other selves don't impact her in this present. For example...A future/different timeline Jean gave birth to Rachel but when Rachel came into the 616 Jean didn't suddenly get all the memories and feelings and experiences of that birth because (she was presumed dead at the time, but specifically) that future hasn't happened yet for 616 Jean and by all accounts will never happen for her.

When you (over)think it it sounds omgawdhowawesomeisthat!? but really, being "multi/omniversal" is just the writer's excuse to write a Phoenix Jean from a billion years ago screwing Odin. Or a Phoenix Jean who went so bat-poop evil and took over the world an old Jean had to go through time and space to find a Jeen to stop her (or whatever that mess was). Or a Phoenix Jean who was force-birthed from an egg and used to kill all life on Earth...all of which ultimately means nothing to 616 Jean because she is yet to physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually experience those actions. Theoretically we can speculate that when in direct contact, as they are currently, the Phoenix shields her from all of that other lives rubbish but I'm glad she doesn't have those additional burdens and miseries to bear and remains solely her 616 self.

As for contacting Scott and having fire sex...I read that as 616 Jean's Phoenix essence in the WHR just reaching out to her true love to reassure him in this time of despair. Exactly as she did two decades ago, telling him to "Live, Scott. Live!". It speaks more to the connection they have, rather than her power as Phoenix.