Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Hakka84]

I actually think that showed some maturity. Instead of sticking in a broken relation he decided to let her go despite still loving her.

Definitely. Is the how that could be... improved. He was a bit cold in the approach, like a CEO who is firing a collaborator with no emotions involved - which is contradictory, since the argument was a love relationship.
Ultimately it could make sense for the specific character, but still cold it was. He could've been less hurtful toward poor Betsy. There were no blames in their falling out (her flirting was the symptom that something was off, not the reason for the breaking up), and she didn't deserve to be flayed that way.
Let's just say that our boy should get some emotional education, especially on how to face the failure of a romantic relationship. ^^"

Meanwhile, Wolverine's first feud with a fellow X-Man was with Angel as seen in Classic X-Men #1 and this rivalry only intensified by the late 80s with Warren as Archangel and now able to deal as much damage to Wolverine as Wolverine could do to him. Claremont's plan was to reveal that Apocalypse was behind Wolverine's adamantium skeleton so just being close to Archangel would trigger Wolverine.

Love this idea.
And you're right. The feud was so well established that even Hodge knew of it, and heavily played on it when he put Warren and Logan against each other in Genosha.

And apparently CC said that he broke up Warren and Betsy because he felt she was too good for him.

Too good... and then proceeds to pair her with bloody Sabertooth?? *swears in archaic languages*
Such a choice would make sense in a Betsy post-DAS, she was broken and in a dark place, and she could search the company of a man who is an AU of one of the men who violated her body/was the cause of the whole Crimson Dawn ordeal. But the Betsy in New Exiles wasn't like that.

I don't hate Fantomex/Betsy. But, like with Neal... it was all to rushed.
I complained about Rachel, but at least with Rachel Betsy was single for a while (not to mention they were friends, which is a step forward than falling into the arms with a teammate the day after loosing/breaking up with your long-time boy/girlfriend)
And yes, Fantomex worked in UXF vol 1. The issue are what travesty of a romance became in Uncanny X-Force vol2.

I don't know how outspoken he is about which characters he dislikes save for Dazzler. He and Byrne have always been very explicit about disliking her and not viewing her as their creation.

I have a re-reading of both Forever and The End planned for my More Captains Britain AU project, so I'll let you know in case I find something interesting to discuss about.
From what I remember.. I get Alison's role in X-Men: The End:
spoilers:

she is killed at the start of the story. I don't remember if she was running for President or had just won, but yeah, killed in terrorist attack

end of spoilers
While Warren...
spoilers:

last some more but doesn't survive either. I think he gets a brutal death too. To be fair, other mains follow suit. Ororo for example. If I recall right, she was disabled (the series came out when she was temporarily disabled in X-Treme X-Men possibly?) and she gets out with a bang. Betsy is one of the few characters who survive.

end of spoilers

[whitecrown]

Love this idea.
And you're right. The feud was so well established that even Hodge knew of it, and heavily played on it when he put Warren and Logan against each other in Genosha.


Too good... and then proceeds to pair her with bloody Sabertooth?? *swears in archaic languages*
Such a choice would make sense in a Betsy post-DAS, she was broken and in a dark place, and she could search the company of a man who is an AU of one of the men who violated her body/was the cause of the whole Crimson Dawn ordeal. But the Betsy in New Exiles wasn't like that.


I have a re-reading of both Forever and The End for my More Captains Britain AU project, so I'll let you know in case I find something interesting to discuss about.
From what I remember.. I get Alison's role in X-Men: The End:
spoilers:

she is killed at the start of the story. I don't remember if she was running for President or had just won, but yeah, killed in terrorist attack

end of spoilers
While Warren...
spoilers:

last some more but doesn't survive either. I think he gets a brutal death too. To be fair, other mains follow suit. Ororo for example. If I recall right, she was disabled (the series came out when she was temporarily disabled in X-Treme X-Men possibly?) and she gets out with a bang. Betsy is one of the few characters who survive.

end of spoilers

The funny thing is that Scott/Logan/Jean are considered the main love triangle but in the Scott/Logan rivalry, none of their fights were ever over Jean in the Claremont era. It was always leadership stuff like when Logan called Scott a coward. Warren and Logan's first fight (and in fact, Logan's first feud from the moment he stepped into the X-Mansion) was over Jean.

Claremont had a weird fascination with a reformed Sabretooth. He did it in Exiles with AoA Sabretooth and then again in X-Men Forever. I know his idea was that the Sabretooth we had encountered in Mutant Massacre and working with the Marauders was only a clone so he wasn't complicit in the massacre. The real Sabretooth had no interest in the X-Men and only targeted Wolverine. Which I think X-Men Forever confirmed. So I guess Claremont had the idea that Sabretooth, somewhere deep down, had a noble streak like Wolverine's, but it's still bizarre that CC was willing to pair off Betsy with him and not Warren.

Lol, that confirms that CC didn't like Dazzler. I know there's a story where someone went up to him and told him they love his work on the X-Men and Claremont asked who their fav character was. The fan said Dazzler and Claremont looked genuinely shocked that anyone would prefer her. And CC wanted to kill her off in the Outback era but at the last minute, he was convinced otherwise, hence why Dazzler having visions of her death never panned out. CC went back to that in the New Excalibur series where Dazzler suddenly could die and resurrect with no explanation. And CC and Byrne in general love to disavow any claim to creating Dazzler and how she was Jim Shooter's pet project.

I've read bits and pieces of X-Men: The End so I remember Betsy was instrumental in taking down Cassandra Nova with her psychic katana. I also remember that Storm was in a wheelchair at the beginning but she dies at the end so CC wasn't above killing off some of his pet characters. I've never even heard about Warren's part in the story which goes to show how undervalued he was by CC. I didn't realize Dazzler was running for president though. I know Kitty becomes president by the end.

[Hakka84]

It came to my mind that Claremont also wrote Excalibur (2004). The mini-arch with Warren is possibly one of the best fight scene for his feathered self, he's competent and a good fighter that can handle his own without the need for Archangel. So there's that. Perhaps he liked Warren with Paige?
CC was a bit callous by having Callisto and Viper bickering on who has the right to get Warren (bad taste from Callisto), but it felt in character for me so it doesn't annoy me in the least.

[whitecrown]

It came to my mind that Claremont also wrote Excalibur (2004). The mini-arch with Warren is possibly one of the best fight scene for his feathered self, he's competent and a good fighter that can handle his own without the need for Archangel. So there's that. Perhaps he liked Warren with Paige?
CC was a bit callous by having Callisto and Viper bickering on who has the right to get Warren (bad taste from Callisto), but it felt in character for me so it doesn't annoy me in the least.

I wonder if not having any other available X-Men characters for him to use is what allowed him to write Warren so well there because he had to make do without his pet characters.
And no one else besides CC would remember Callisto's crush on Warren.

[Hakka84]

I wonder if not having any other available X-Men characters for him to use is what allowed him to write Warren so well there because he had to make do without his pet characters.
And no one else besides CC would remember Callisto's crush on Warren.

On this I am grateful. It's bits like these that make the icing on a comic, IMHO. These characters, while fictional, are alive in their world, and you would expect them to not go tabula rasa every three months about their past.

Perhaps he decided to include Warren for Calllisto, who knows. I doubt he had to pick Warren for drive sales.
It would be interesting to know if Warren was removed from the main X-Men team because CC needed him in Excalibur or CC picked him up after TBTB decided to get rid of Warren from the main titles. Because Warren's last panel in X-Men (#157) is a scene where all the X-Men are shouting at Scott, each complaining for something, and Warren shouts "Genosha?! I don't want to go to Genosha!"
This was July 2004. And, except for the poker game in Spectacular Spider-Man (which I don't even know when it's set, Warren doesn't seem spoken for with Paige in this story), he's nowhere to be seen for half an year. He pops up (with Paige) for a cameo in XM #165 (serving food at an hospice with Mutants Sans Frontiere - I didn't remember this, BTW!), February 2005, and the next month he's in Excalibur.
(phew, god bless Marvel Fanbase's resources)

Still, it shows that when he wants, CC can write well even a character he doesn't feel much for and with powers that have limitations in creative use.
Which make you more angrier to know that he usually doesn't: he has(had) the ability but decided to not use it. Frustrating, isn't it?

[K7P5V]

Love this idea.
And you're right. The feud was so well established that even Hodge knew of it, and heavily played on it when he put Warren and Logan against each other in Genosha.

I know, right?! Truly a classic moment (IMHO):

[whitecrown]

On this I am grateful. It's bits like these that make the icing on a comic, IMHO. These characters, while fictional, are alive in their world, and you would expect them to not go tabula rasa every three months about their past.

Perhaps he decided to include Warren for Calllisto, who knows. I doubt he had to pick Warren for drive sales.
It would be interesting to know if Warren was removed from the main X-Men team because CC needed him in Excalibur or CC picked him up after TBTB decided to get rid of Warren from the main titles. Because Warren's last panel in X-Men (#157) is a scene where all the X-Men are shouting at Scott, each complaining for something, and Warren shouts "Genosha?! I don't want to go to Genosha!"
This was July 2004. And, except for the poker game in Spectacular Spider-Man (which I don't even know when it's set, Warren doesn't seem spoken for with Paige in this story), he's nowhere to be seen for half an year. He pops up (with Paige) for a cameo in XM #165 (serving food at an hospice with Mutants Sans Frontiere - I didn't remember this, BTW!), February 2005, and the next month he's in Excalibur.
(phew, god bless Marvel Fanbase's resources)

Still, it shows that when he wants, CC can write well even a character he doesn't feel much for and with powers that have limitations in creative use.
Which make you more angrier to know that he usually doesn't: he has(had) the ability but decided to not use it. Frustrating, isn't it?

This is why, with a few exceptions, I don't trust other writers besides Claremont with the X-Men. He's the one who made them into what they are and the only one who still understands them for the most part. I see the work hacks like Hickman do and it just proves to me that he has no idea who these characters are and doesn't even care to. He's just interested in moving his plot points around. I never read his Avengers run but I remember hearing Avengers fans who felt similarly that he had a complete lack of understanding for the characters as individuals so it seems to be a trend.

Remender is one of those exceptions. To me, he almost felt like Claremont's heir. The storylines he picked up, the character beats and development, felt very in tune with CC's understanding.

In the Reload era, Warren was the only major X-Man who wasn't on an X-Men team. Not UXM, AXM, or X-Men (V2). I don't know why Marvel didn't place him on a team but I'm assuming that left him free for Excalibur. I know Claremont wasn't given first dibs anymore like he used to. In X-Treme X-Men, he got Beast but then Morrison claimed him and CC had to give up Beast. But I think CC was able to claim Storm when Morrison wanted her so maybe it was give and take. CC more or less kept his X-Treme cast for UXM. I would have assumed Angel would end up in X-Men (V2) where Iceman, Havok, and Polaris ended up but that didn't occur and I don't know why Marvel felt he wasn't necessary to a specific team. So my personal guess is that CC claimed him then since no one else was using him.

I didn't realize Warren was missing for so many months during that era. I thought the lack of respect for him was only a thing after UXF but it seems like it dates back to the early 2000s as well. Even in the Revolution era, I was confused about whether he was on an actual team or not. Kitty was promoted as being part of X-Men, but then she disappears and Warren seems to take her place.

Yes, it is frustrating. Warren hasn't had it super great with CC but then I think of characters who had it worse. Bobby was mostly ignored and Lorna was actively mistreated so in comparison to them, Warren comes across as having done much better. While you're reading X-Men Forever, I wonder what you think of CC's characterization of Warren because it felt OOC to me. Partly because this was the Archangel angsty period and CC seemed to ignore that and write him like it was still 1981.

[marhawkman]

I don't think CC disliked him, but I don't think he liked him either. He only put Warren on the team in his run because John Byrne was there and Byrne said there should always be a member of the O5 on the X-Men. It's no coincidence that after Byrne left the book, Claremont kicked out Warren. And he never seemed to know what to do with him besides make him a foil to Wolverine. People get hung up on the Cyclops/Wolverine rivalry but there was very little of it in Claremont's run. It more or less ended by the Proteus Saga. Meanwhile, Wolverine's first feud with a fellow X-Man was with Angel as seen in Classic X-Men #1 and this rivalry only intensified by the late 80s with Warren as Archangel and now able to deal as much damage to Wolverine as Wolverine could do to him. Claremont's plan was to reveal that Apocalypse was behind Wolverine's adamantium skeleton so just being close to Archangel would trigger Wolverine.

And apparently CC said that he broke up Warren and Betsy because he felt she was too good for him.

Who was it that wrote the glowing Angel phase? That fight between Warren and Logan was pretty epic. Especially fun was how Wolvie really has no idea how the glowing Angel powers work and thus isn't really sure what to do.

[From The Shadows]

I know, right?! Truly a classic moment (IMHO):

Loved that scene!

[whitecrown]

Who was it that wrote the glowing Angel phase? That fight between Warren and Logan was pretty epic. Especially fun was how Wolvie really has no idea how the glowing Angel powers work and thus isn't really sure what to do.

Do you mean the period when Angel had those glowing yellow wings? I know the fight was in Wolverine 147.

[marhawkman]

Do you mean the period when Angel had those glowing yellow wings? I know the fight was in Wolverine 147.

YES! Wolvie was so confused during that fight And... looks liek it was Fabian Nicieza.

[Hakka84]

Loving that Wolverine, in Genosha, calls Warren (who was meant to be in his late 20s at least) "boy". Made me snicker.

I didn't realize Warren was missing for so many months during that era. I thought the lack of respect for him was only a thing after UXF but it seems like it dates back to the early 2000s as well. Even in the Revolution era, I was confused about whether he was on an actual team or not. Kitty was promoted as being part of X-Men, but then she disappears and Warren seems to take her place.
(...)
While you're reading X-Men Forever, I wonder what you think of CC's characterization of Warren because it felt OOC to me. Partly because this was the Archangel angsty period and CC seemed to ignore that and write him like it was still 1981.

The descent all started even before, right after he got his feathers wings back (and possibly even before, I don't remember how much active he was when Sabertooth was still in the school, although he was technically an active member of an X-Team). I think he vanished after that specific issue in which he regained his wings (and Original Pyro died), and Betsy followed suit. He and Betsy showed up for the (my precioooous) Crimson Dawn mini but they were missing in the main titles. They were dragged back for the Trial of Gambit and then gone again. Warren was split from Betsy's side for the O5 reunion in Alaska and for Astonishing X-Men (v2). The pair was pulled out from mothball status again for the side-quest in Apocalypse's Twelve (with the whole glowing wings and Current Death Vs his Predecessor). Then there was the cameo in the storyline with the Evolutionary mentioned a page back.
So, really, after he regained his wings, he moved from glorified cameo to side title. Only around Mutopia he was finally back as active member (and that lasted up to his romance to Paige). From there... I think we have to jump straight to Utopia?
[I'm going by memory here, not crosschecking with Marvel Fanbase today, so take this with a grain of salt]

Not sure when I'll read Forever (I'm reading Heroes Reborn - for fanworks reason obvs lol - and I keep getting sidelined with other minis) but I'll be sure to return here and share my impressions of Warren when I do!

YES! Wolvie was so confused during that fight And... looks liek it was Fabian Nicieza.

Don't touch my glowing-wings Warren. I love that story so much it hurts. Too bad that his powers were depleted and never expanded upon: I was curious about the talons that apparently were so dangerous (?!?) that scared Betsy.
And yes, poor Logan, he was so confused during the whole ordeal. He was already going through the hurdle of coming out of Apoccy's brainwash and he gets stuck in tracking down the flyboy who's acting Wolverine-ish. It certainly wasn't his best week. :lol:

[whitecrown]

Loving that Wolverine, in Genosha, calls Warren (who was meant to be in his late 20s at least) "boy". Made me snicker.



The descent all started even before, right after he got his feathers wings back (and possibly even before, I don't remember how much active he was when Sabertooth was still in the school, although he was technically an active member of an X-Team). I think he vanished after that specific issue in which he regained his wings (and Original Pyro died), and Betsy followed suit. He and Betsy showed up for the (my precioooous) Crimson Dawn mini but they were missing in the main titles. They were dragged back for the Trial of Gambit and then gone again. Warren was split from Betsy's side for the O5 reunion in Alaska and for Astonishing X-Men (v2). The pair was pulled out from mothball status again for the side-quest in Apocalypse's Twelve (with the whole glowing wings and Current Death Vs his Predecessor). Then there was the cameo in the storyline with the Evolutionary mentioned a page back.
So, really, after he regained his wings, he moved from glorified cameo to side title. Only around Mutopia he was finally back as active member (and that lasted up to his romance to Paige). From there... I think we have to jump straight to Utopia?
[I'm going by memory here, not crosschecking with Marvel Fanbase today, so take this with a grain of salt]

Not sure when I'll read Forever (I'm reading Heroes Reborn - for fanworks reason obvs lol - and I keep getting sidelined with other minis) but I'll be sure to return here and share my impressions of Warren when I do!

I guess everyone would be considered a child to Wolverine in comparison to his age.

That's a pretty comprehensive write-up of his history and it all seems accurate to me. I forgot that technically he was originally sidelined after he got his wings back and wasn't really on a main X-Men team anymore unlike Scott, Jean, and Hank. Even Bobby got OZT to shine. Warren was mostly in side projects like the Crimson Dawn mini and AXM and coming and going when the storyline needed him.
As much as I dislike the whole Manifest Destiny/Utopia era, I will admit that he was very prominently featured during that period. Even in Messiah Complex, he was frequently depicted as part of the main X-Men team.

Forever doesn't feature much of Warren, just a few sporadic appearances so you're not missing out. Hope you enjoy Heroes Reborn!

[Hakka84]

I guess everyone would be considered a child to Wolverine in comparison to his age.

That's a pretty comprehensive write-up of his history and it all seems accurate to me. I forgot that technically he was originally sidelined after he got his wings back and wasn't really on a main X-Men team anymore unlike Scott, Jean, and Hank. Even Bobby got OZT to shine. Warren was mostly in side projects like the Crimson Dawn mini and AXM and coming and going when the storyline needed him.
As much as I dislike the whole Manifest Destiny/Utopia era, I will admit that he was very prominently featured during that period. Even in Messiah Complex, he was frequently depicted as part of the main X-Men team.

Forever doesn't feature much of Warren, just a few sporadic appearances so you're not missing out. Hope you enjoy Heroes Reborn!

Yeah, Utopia/X-Force was possibly his best era ever I fear, competing only with X-Factor (to each fan to decide which era they consider superior/like the best).
I don't see such a golden (or even a lesser-golden) era to ever return for him unless Marvel decided to bring back the O5 together (and ever there, you still can get All-New XM/X-Men Blue, in which he was a little more than wallpaper). Not with authors being more interested in mutants with more cool powers (or "more appeasing" traits). Authors are entitled to their favourite and to pick characters they like or feel compelled to, mind me (there's nothing worst than an author who is forced to write/use a character they don't like or have nothing to say about!), but I have these feelings that as years go by, and the more the same rooster continues to get attention, the more the other characters stay on the bench with no hope to be picked up.

[Ok, Politically-correct filter off.]
Let me start by saying I don't like to use the term "woke", especially as it now means everything and its contrary, so I seldom use it. But I think here the term fits.

Warren is everything a "woke" author might want to avoid: he's male, white, cis and awfully rich. This on top of not being an Omega. While Warren might be "attractive" for an artist, he's not that much interesting from an author's point of view, when they can pick from literally dozens of other characters with flight plus other powers, and who might also belong to a minority. So you get the same result in a fight/in the plot, but you also win some "representation points", which never hurts.
When a new team is built, either by choice or per mandate, it's required to be (what's the right term? Mixed?). There are other white male characters that get priority over Warren, and even if an author might be "well, I could fit Angel too in here, why not?", they would get to a point where they would have to back down because they need a woman or a POC instead, else their team will be accused of being too white and not representative(?) enough.
[Politically-correct filter on]

I also fear Warren is still suffering from The Dark Angel Saga: that story was so beautiful and impactful, that he isn't allowed to move forward. And even when people have an idea to work with another facet of Warren (see Tiny Howard), they still are held down by the unresolved, repetitive relationship between Warren and the Archangel persona.
(X-Corp had other things on its plate, other reasons for why it failed, but that's not the point I'm trying to make ATM).
Not to say I dislike this trope of his, actually. But I can see why authors wouldn't be interested in picking Warren up, if all Warren offers is that and there's little else to work with. Especially if any other of Warren's facets are already represented by more beloved or more famous characters. You don't pick Warren for his businessman/rich/CEO person facet, you already have Emma for that (and there's also Sunspot). You don't pick him for his "killing machine" facet, there's Wolverine (and others). You don't pick him to be a mutant face in politics and PR-things, you have Storm or Emma or Jean or others. You don't pick him to be a leader of a new (black-ops/not the upcoming Forge's) X-Force, there's Cable or Bishop and others. You don't pick him to be a leader for any team (I think he has everything to be a good one) because there's a list of at least 15 characters who are waiting for that same role and will get precedence over him. You don't even pick him for the contest of "Who Wants to Be Apocalypse's Next Heir" for... reasons (and, anyway, I agree with those here on the boards who wish it's Cable to "win").

I think the position and role he had in X-Corp was what could be best suited for him (provided he kept the Archangel aspect). But that lasted so little, and X-Corp has been handed over to Sunspot's and will likely stay in his control.

So.
Meh.

[OT]
Back then, I think around 1998, I read only the FF: Reborn/Return (it was collected in a book format by an Italian editor - I lent the book to my friend and he never gave it back ç_ç). I remember I liked it (I love middle to late 90s artists). I picked it up now because I want to see how far Marvel went to change the canon backstory of these characters/teams, as I'm toying with an idea of an Onslaught Remixed, in which it is the mutants who have to sacrifice themselves so it's them who are preserved in a new pocket dimension.
So far I'm appreciating. I've just finished the crossover between the titles.
To be fair, I'm not that much hard to please, when I read comics. ^^"
[/OT]

[marhawkman]

Don't touch my glowing-wings Warren. I love that story so much it hurts. Too bad that his powers were depleted and never expanded upon: I was curious about the talons that apparently were so dangerous (?!?) that scared Betsy.
And yes, poor Logan, he was so confused during the whole ordeal. He was already going through the hurdle of coming out of Apoccy's brainwash and he gets stuck in tracking down the flyboy who's acting Wolverine-ish. It certainly wasn't his best week. :lol:

I was also bummed that Warren lost that power and eventually went back to Archangel :/