Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Grinning Soul]

I haven't been following the titles (I just read the reviews here), but was Cerbero still working/not damaged after the Hellfire Gala?+
Because I took for granted that it was disabled and or/damaged during the attack.

If I'm not mistaken, there were five Cerebro cradles and one was in the Moira No-Space/No-Place, where Xavier, Doug and Rasputin are.

I'd say even if Cerebro isn't scanning anymore, there should be some back-ups there. If not there, then in the Summer House (in the moon) or Island M?

This is from RoM.

Ororo: Then they are gone? With no hope of return...?
Ashake: There is always hope. They crossed one threshold already--and death is not the barrier many believe. By your reckoning, I died thousands of years ago--yet here I am. And you can still return from this if you do not tarry. (Then it shows Ororo's body is dying and they're trying to revive her).

--

It seems to me they just didn't want to deal with all the other souls that should be there.

[Hakka84]

If I'm not mistaken, there were five Cerebro cradles and one was in the Moira No-Space/No-Place, where Xavier, Doug and Rasputin are.

I'd say even if Cerebro isn't scanning anymore, there should be some back-ups there. If not there, then in the Summer House (in the moon) or Island M?

This is from RoM.

Ororo: Then they are gone? With no hope of return...?
Ashake: There is always hope. They crossed one threshold already--and death is not the barrier many believe. By your reckoning, I died thousands of years ago--yet here I am. And you can still return from this if you do not tarry. (Then it shows Ororo's body is dying and they're trying to revive her).

--

It seems to me they just didn't want to deal with all the other souls that should be there.

Thank you for the clarification. It was my complete lack of trust in X-Office, and my negative expectations, to talk.

I think we can be mildly hope because I don't think the X-Office would ever implement (back) the strict "dead is dead" rule as in early 2000s (which killed off, pun not intended, Psylocke under Claremont's X-Treme run). If there's an interest to bring Warren back they will find a way (now, if they wanted is up to debate)

[Grinning Soul]

Thank you for the clarification. It was my complete lack of trust in X-Office, and my negative expectations, to talk.

I think we can be mildly hope because I don't think the X-Office would ever implement (back) the strict "dead is dead" rule as in early 2000s (which killed off, pun not intended, Psylocke under Claremont's X-Treme run). If there's an interest to bring Warren back they will find a way (now, if they wanted is up to debate)

I think they'll resurrect most of the characters. If any writer would want to write Warren, it's indeed another discussion. He was alive during most of the Krakoa era, after all, but not used much.

Fingers crossed he'll be alive and some writer will pick him up for the permanent cast of their book.

If they don't, we write our own stories. :)

[Thievery]

I thought the same when I read the review thread for Resurrection of Magneto #1. My first thought was "goodbye Warren".
The X-Men as a whole (minus the ones in the WHR and those on Mars) already have forgotten about him, so...
At this point, my only hope is at least a mention in the future Unlimited/X-Corp comics, as in "with Monet and Warren out, I took over the island" from Sunspot.

I've floated the idea that Sunspot bought X-Corp from Archangel and Monet, and so have many other members of this forum. Right now just about everyone thinks that that will end up being the story that Marvel goes with.
Whether or not we get a mention that Warren is dead will be interesting.

The Waiting Room was really only made to help back up mutants that were not backed up by Cerebro. There's no reason why the original resurrection protocols couldn't work as long as the mutants get their hands on a Cerebro backup once the Five escape the White Hot Room.

Thanks, I feel a little bit better now.

Not 100% better, but I have to hold onto whatever hope that I can find now.

Thank you for the clarification. It was my complete lack of trust in X-Office, and my negative expectations, to talk.

I think we can be mildly hope because I don't think the X-Office would ever implement (back) the strict "dead is dead" rule as in early 2000s (which killed off, pun not intended, Psylocke under Claremont's X-Treme run). If there's an interest to bring Warren back they will find a way (now, if they wanted is up to debate)

Marvel had to give up on the "dead means dead" rule. If I know the story correctly it was only implemented in part to keep writers from pitching stories that killed characters off. Since that didn't work and characters were still frequently killed the idea was abandoned. If I have story right.
Just look at what "dead is dead" did to the Ultimate Universe. It no longer exists largely because characters were killed off.

But you are correct about the important thing. Archangel will only be used if a writer wants him, or Marvel cares about the character enough. Seems like that has stopped being the case.

I think they'll resurrect most of the characters. If any writer would want to write Warren, it's indeed another discussion. He was alive during most of the Krakoa era, after all, but not used much.

Fingers crossed he'll be alive and some writer will pick him up for the permanent cast of their book.

If they don't, we write our own stories.

I can't write my own stories. So I'm kind of dependent on Marvel to do it for me.

So I give Marvel my money in the hopes that I might get to read some good stories about my favorite characters. I pay for stories that count.

No offense to any one who writes fanfic and enjoys it. I've read some fanfic that have been better stories than what Archangel received during the Krakoa run.

[Grinning Soul]

I can't write my own stories. So I'm kind of dependent on Marvel to do it for me.

So I give Marvel my money in the hopes that I might get to read some good stories about my favorite characters. I pay for stories that count.

No offense to any one who writes fanfic and enjoys it. I've read some fanfic that have been better stories than what Archangel received during the Krakoa run.

I understand. Having Marvel writing the stories, especially if they're good ones, is the ideal scenario. I supposed it's what all of us want.

I was just saying that we have the option of writing our own stories.

Fan-fiction is often petty, silly and self-indulgent, true. But some are amazing.

Besides, official books nowadays are often written in the same petty, silly and self-indulgent way. So... the difference is that we pay for it?

From what I've read of Hakka84's headcannon, I'd bet we would get something better from her than from most of the writers currently on the X-Office. :)

[K7P5V]

I do really miss Candy Southern for him. I read the name 'Candy' and that she's a flight attendant, and he's a super-powered billionaire playboy, and think 'what a social power imbalance' and then I see the actual writing of Candy (and that she's one of his childhood friends and has a monied family herself), and she totally takes no ****. She quips to him, sends Iceman scurrying with a gesture, and is talking like she's a pit boss to her crew to a group of Defenders folk like the Beast. In one of her first appearances, she wears a wig and Marvel Girl dress to trick villains like the Blob. She's absolutely down to be *bait* when there's super-villains involved!

She's absolutely one of the humans I would have put first in the queue for resurrection, along with Jean's family (and various other family members ganked over the years, Kitty's dad, Piotr's parents, etc.), Sharon Friedlander, and (since nobody really knew she wasn't still alive), Moira McTaggart. (Wouldn't that have freaked Xavier out, since he couldn't tell everyone why they shouldn't have resurrected Moira without telling him!)

A prominent, socially connected mutant / human pairing, just in the face of everyone who wants one side or the other to be all exclusionary and racist and supremacist, would be a fun place for Warren, and I miss that position for Warren, who has been more recently relegated to the ghetto of 'he can date anyone, *as long as she's a mutant!*'

Same here. Candy was nominated for leadership of the team, and deservedly so. Like you said, she ain't taking $H!* from anyone...

[Hakka84]

Fan-fiction is often petty, silly and self-indulgent, true. But some are amazing.

Besides, official books nowadays are often written in the same petty, silly and self-indulgent way. So... the difference is that we pay for it?

From what I've read of Hakka84's headcannon, I'd bet we would get something better from her than from most of the writers currently on the X-Office.

You're actually thinking too highly of me. ^^" But thanks for the support!
My experience with fanfictions - might be that I've been lucky or found a "superior" niche" - says that most of the fanfiction bunch is good indeed. I stick to shipping though, so that might explain the different opinion on the fanfiction genre.

Same here. Candy was nominated for leadership of the team, and deservedly so. Like you said, she ain't taking $H!* from anyone...

The more I think about it, the more I understand that X-Factor did Candy dirty. She was mostly absent and the one time she's seen, she's portrayed as prone to rage and jealousy tantrums. The Candy we've seen before (remember that Hidden Years didn't exist yet) wouldn't storm off like she did in X-Factor. He would actually go under Warren's nose and face him on his dubious behaviour around Jean.
I can work around this OOCness by explaining that she was meant to return, once she boiled down, but Hodge kidnapped her before she could do it.

I'm thankfully that when her Phalanx-infected self/construct (I'm still unsure if she were the real deal of a Phalanx-clone) she showed nothing but love and affection for Warren and his feelings, so far as sacrificing herself to save him. That was more the Candy I knew.

[Grinning Soul]

You're actually thinking too highly of me. ^^" But thanks for the support!
My experience with fanfictions - might be that I've been lucky or found a "superior" niche" - says that most of the fanfiction bunch is good indeed. I stick to shipping though, so that might explain the different opinion on the fanfiction genre.

You're welcome.

Do you stick to writing only about relationships too?

[Thievery]

Same here. Candy was nominated for leadership of the team, and deservedly so. Like you said, she ain't taking $H!* from anyone...

I really like those New Defenders comics. I'm going to have to find a trade paperback of them because I don't want to damage my copies of those issues.

But, yeah, Candy really was great in that series.

You're actually thinking too highly of me. ^^" But thanks for the support!
My experience with fanfictions - might be that I've been lucky or found a "superior" niche" - says that most of the fanfiction bunch is good indeed. I stick to shipping though, so that might explain the different opinion on the fanfiction genre.



The more I think about it, the more I understand that X-Factor did Candy dirty. She was mostly absent and the one time she's seen, she's portrayed as prone to rage and jealousy tantrums. The Candy we've seen before (remember that Hidden Years didn't exist yet) wouldn't storm off like she did in X-Factor. He would actually go under Warren's nose and face him on his dubious behaviour around Jean.
I can work around this OOCness by explaining that she was meant to return, once she boiled down, but Hodge kidnapped her before she could do it.

I'm thankfully that when her Phalanx-infected self/construct (I'm still unsure if she were the real deal of a Phalanx-clone) she showed nothing but love and affection for Warren and his feelings, so far as sacrificing herself to save him. That was more the Candy I knew.

I'm pretty sure that when the Phalanx absorbs a dead body that that person is considered to be the real person. I'm not sure how that works, but I think that is the situation.

This will sound mean, but I liked the idea that Candy had died not knowing what was going on or that Archangel had come to save her and failed. I also kind of liked the idea that Warren thought that when Candy died she may not have liked him very well. I just thought that it made Warren feel like a bigger loser, and it felt like he ended up with more baggage to overcome. It was already disappointing that she had been killed, so I figured that making Angel pay more mentally was a good way to tell that story.
I talked about this with someone in one of Archangel's old appreciation threads.

[Hakka84]

You're welcome.

Do you stick to writing only about relationships too?

Usually yes. Not specifically romance-only scenes, there romance is set into a wider story, but usually the characters I write about are heavily and canon reliant on the other character I ship them with (Kirk/Spock example) so, since I consider them as a couple, it's hard to not "fall" into "shipping".
I do try with gen or non-romance from time to time, but it's rare. Any (AU)Warren story I came up with so far, usually revolve around his romance with (AU)Betsy. She usually comes later into the story, and Warren gets his own share of life, but Betsy eventually makes her way into his life.

This will sound mean, but I liked the idea that Candy had died not knowing what was going on or that Archangel had come to save her and failed. I also kind of liked the idea that Warren thought that when Candy died she may not have liked him very well. I just thought that it made Warren feel like a bigger loser, and it felt like he ended up with more baggage to overcome. It was already disappointing that she had been killed, so I figured that making Angel pay more mentally was a good way to tell that story.
I talked about this with someone in one of Archangel's old appreciation threads.

I understand this. There's a meme going around in the fanworks fandom, which is basically that the more you like a character the more you want for them to suffer so you usually write fanfics in which they suffer.
I admit I'm torn about this. On one side I agree with you, and if he was given more attention (=if he headed a solo title), it would've been perfect for him to have that baggage to carry. For as much as X-Factor treated Warren right post his Apocalypse manipulation, we could've been give much more about what he thought about his changes and how he felt about Candy.

With hindsight, with all the sh*it Warren got since he moved on from Candy, I think at least closure with Candy is necessary: he already got too much baggage to add even Candy's death. Of which he still can fault himself (he has been the one to drag Cameron in X-Factor). He's not his fault if Cameron was ape-crazy, psycho (and possibly love-obsessive), but Warren would have any reason to believe he was the reason why Candy was tortured and killed. Phalanx!Candy at least lessened that weight by reassuring Warren that she didn't die hating on him - but a part of Warren will forever feel bad for Candy becoming collateral victim of Hodge's war against him.
IDK if what I said make sense.

[Grinning Soul]

Usually yes. Not specifically romance-only scenes, there romance is set into a wider story, but usually the characters I write about are heavily and canon reliant on the other character I ship them with (Kirk/Spock example) so, since I consider them as a couple, it's hard to not "fall" into "shipping".
I do try with gen or non-romance from time to time, but it's rare. Any (AU)Warren story I came up with so far, usually revolve around his romance with (AU)Betsy. She usually comes later into the story, and Warren gets his own share of life, but Betsy eventually makes her way into his life.

I understand. I often say fan-fic should be fun-fic for the writer. If that's what you like, that's what you like. :)

I'd still want to read it when you have something ready for Blondie. Please, let me know. :)

[Thievery]

Usually yes. Not specifically romance-only scenes, there romance is set into a wider story, but usually the characters I write about are heavily and canon reliant on the other character I ship them with (Kirk/Spock example) so, since I consider them as a couple, it's hard to not "fall" into "shipping".
I do try with gen or non-romance from time to time, but it's rare. Any (AU)Warren story I came up with so far, usually revolve around his romance with (AU)Betsy. She usually comes later into the story, and Warren gets his own share of life, but Betsy eventually makes her way into his life.




I understand this. There's a meme going around in the fanworks fandom, which is basically that the more you like a character the more you want for them to suffer so you usually write fanfics in which they suffer.
I admit I'm torn about this. On one side I agree with you, and if he was given more attention (=if he headed a solo title), it would've been perfect for him to have that baggage to carry. For as much as X-Factor treated Warren right post his Apocalypse manipulation, we could've been give much more about what he thought about his changes and how he felt about Candy.

With hindsight, with all the sh*it Warren got since he moved on from Candy, I think at least closure with Candy is necessary: he already got too much baggage to add even Candy's death. Of which he still can fault himself (he has been the one to drag Cameron in X-Factor). He's not his fault if Cameron was ape-crazy, psycho (and possibly love-obsessive), but Warren would have any reason to believe he was the reason why Candy was tortured and killed. Phalanx!Candy at least lessened that weight by reassuring Warren that she didn't die hating on him - but a part of Warren will forever feel bad for Candy becoming collateral victim of Hodge's war against him.
IDK if what I said make sense.

Nah, I think that Candy should be the one that lingers. One of those things that keeps Angel motivated. Maybe he get's a little closure on the issue by finally getting to kill Hodge. And this time the deal that Hodge made with that demon doesn't stick.

Warren can get closure with ex's Betsy or Paige instead.

[K7P5V]

In Avengers Annual '99, Natasha reaches out to Warren, Hank and Bobby, and invites them.

Indeed. Here's proof...

[Hakka84]

Warren can get closure with ex's Betsy or Paige instead.

I think he already had closure with both.
Besides, I don't think he would have any sense of guilt with either. Sure, a person can feel guilty even for things outside of their control, but there is nothing that would suggest Warren would feel guilty for anything related to Betsy and Paige (besides a generic "things could've gone differently if I did/said").

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I don't think most X characters get closure as the pair could always date again if a writer wanted them to like Warren and Betsy.