Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Til]

That looks like all of them that I'm aware of.

I think that the Iceman and Angel comic is an out of continuity comic, if it is the one I think that you are referring to.
If it is then it comes from the old X-Men: First Class comic.
I have to be honest, I've never read that one seeing as the comic was targeted at a younger audience.
If it's not the one that I am thinking of than I need to find a copy, because I still won't have read it.

Angel: Revelations is also out of continuity.

Yeah, it's the First Class-related one. I had no idea that First Class was out of continuity.

[Hakka84]

I'm finally going to read Warren's solo/team-up content. This is my list:

Iceman and Angel
Angel: Revelations
Archangel
Psylocke & Archangel - Crimson Dawn

Am I missing anything?

What is "Archangel"? Phantom Wings, right?
I'd add:
- Marvel Fanfare (1982) #40.
- Ka-Zar (1970) #2/#3 (the debut of his uncle/Dazzler)
- Marvel Two-In-One #68 (team up with the Thing)

While searching for the titles above (I didn't remember which), I found also:
Tales of Suspense #49.
I've read it years ago so I don't remember if it's worthy.

There's also a story with him and Spidey in the Savage Land with Lykos/Sauron, but I can't find it ATM. Besides, it eventually involves the X-Men.

I think that the Iceman and Angel comic is an out of continuity comic, if it is the one I think that you are referring to.
(...)
Angel: Revelations is also out of continuity.

I'm not sure if Marvel has labelled Revelations officially out of continuity. Did they labelled out of continuity the whole Marvel Knight line perhaps?
Too bad, anyway. I think Revelations doesn't invalidate nor retcons anything to warrant the non-canon label. Especially when we have stories that break or clash with previously established canon and still are part of 616.

First Class, on the other end, stretches a bit with canon. I know, timescale and everything, but it's hard to fit First Class to Silver Age X-Men*.
But, as far as I remember, Marvel never officially labelled First Class offcanon? It's just in that "not AU but not properly fitting 616 either" status?

*Side note. The very ages of the First Class and Warren before coming to Xavier are confusing AF.
He got his wings at 13. But he's never portrayed so young in any origins/related story. Besides, if he was 17/18 by the time he enrolled at Xavier's, does it mean he was an underage when he was the Avenging Angel? When he rented the flat where he resides (where Bobby and Cyke find him)? He was 13 when he saved his mates at the boarding school?
Also, does it mean that Xavier's school is meant to be an alternative to university? I always thought the school was a private high-school level institution?

2nd Side note. Perhaps it's time we build up a suggested-reading-list for Warren to add to the first post of the topic for anyone who wants to read some decent Warren content?

[Grinning Soul]

@Hakka84: In Uncanny X-Men #7, the O5 graduate high-school at Xavier's. Later, Jean kinda-leaves for university, but everyone but Scott does the same before the All New X-Men team takes over. So, no. Originally, it was supposed to be just high school.

And I think that alone would put Revelations as part of an AU,
spoilers:

since Warren is 17 in that story and he hasn't joined Xavier's school yet

end of spoilers

It's always tricky to talk about their ages, but this is what Stan Lee wrote in a letter's page in Uncanny X-Men #17:


"(...)Cyke is the oldest, although he's still in his late teens. The others are from two months to a year younger -- while Iceman is about a year and a half younger.(...)"


EDIT: This was retconned later. In the last issue of The Hidden Years, they celebrate Hank's 20th birthday, and a blond guy who might be Warren (Hank replies to a "master Worthington", but if it's him, he suddenly isn't wearing the uniform he was wearing on the previous panel), says that he and Scott are just behind, but Hank is the first one to leave the teenager years.

I'm not sure The Hidden Years is considered 616 canon (I suppose it is, because that last story is connected to an FF issue), but Hank has been considered the oldest for a while. I seem to remember he was also the first one to turn 30, but I can't find where that happened. And, anyway, according to JDW, none of them is 30 yet. So... who knows?

[K7P5V]

^^^LOL! I remember the ending for X-Men: The Hidden Years

But yeah, here's proof...

[Grinning Soul]

^^^LOL! I remember the ending for X-Men: The Hidden Years

But yeah, here's proof...

That's it. Thanks for sharing, K7P5V. You're spoiling me. I'll become even lazier posting panels! :D

I guess we could say Warren pulled the mask of his uniform back? It makes sense that it's him, since Hank replies to a "Master Worthington" and the others shouldn't be as close to Scott's age, but it's still confusing. :)

[Thievery]

What is "Archangel"? Phantom Wings, right?






I'm not sure if Marvel has labelled Revelations officially out of continuity. Did they labelled out of continuity the whole Marvel Knight line perhaps?
Too bad, anyway. I think Revelations doesn't invalidate nor retcons anything to warrant the non-canon label. Especially when we have stories that break or clash with previously established canon and still are part of 616.

First Class, on the other end, stretches a bit with canon. I know, timescale and everything, but it's hard to fit First Class to Silver Age X-Men*.
But, as far as I remember, Marvel never officially labelled First Class offcanon? It's just in that "not AU but not properly fitting 616 either" status?

*Side note. The very ages of the First Class and Warren before coming to Xavier are confusing AF.
He got his wings at 13. But he's never portrayed so young in any origins/related story. Besides, if he was 17/18 by the time he enrolled at Xavier's, does it mean he was an underage when he was the Avenging Angel? When he rented the flat where he resides (where Bobby and Cyke find him)? He was 13 when he saved his mates at the boarding school?
Also, does it mean that Xavier's school is meant to be an alternative to university? I always thought the school was a private high-school level institution?

2nd Side note. Perhaps it's time we build up a suggested-reading-list for Warren to add to the first post of the topic for anyone who wants to read some decent Warren content?

I think that Angel: Revelations is out of continuity and AU for several reasons.

First, Warren's mom is named Katheryn in 616 continuity. In Angel Revelations her name is Margaret.
Also, it's implied in Angel: Revelations that Warren's dad mistreats Warren's mom. That isn't consistent with 616 continuity.

Secondly, as others have pointed out, Revelations doesn't fit with Angel's time scale. Warren is already a senior in Revelations, and he graduates in it.. He can't really be a senior in that book and then have his age reduced when he joins the X-Men.

Another clue is that Revelations doesn't appear as if it can take place much earlier than the 1960's. The tech in Revelation's is pretty poor. Their are no cellphones in Revelations. The characters all use dial phones and landlines. Even the dial phones look like they may have been outdated by the time the 1960's come around. Warren and his family only communicate by phone about twice a weak. Cellphones would eliminate that. I know that cellphones may not have been as common back in the 90's, but Angel's family should have been able to afford them. Warren has to communicate with his parents in part by written letter. You could argue that is a choice that Warren makes on his own, but he could have just as easily sent an email.

I know that the first issue of X-Men was published in the 1960's.
But do to Marvel's floating time scale, any story that would have taken place in the past is shown as taken would have occurred 10 years ago. So, since Angel: Revelations was written in 2008 that means the story would have taken place in 1998. Most of the tech shown in Angel: Revelations would have been outdated by that point.
Maybe a better example would be when the Teen 05 X-Men traveled to the future in All New X-Men. They didn't arrive from the year 1960. They came from 2002, much later than the 1960's.

The whole Marvel Knights line is definitely not considered AU. Most of those stories count for sure.

I've never really understood why Angel: Revelations was labeled a Marvel Knights story. Most comics featuring X-Men characters at that time had X-Men in the title. For example, if a comic featured Colossus as the main character then comic would have been called X-Men: Colossus.

Calling Angel X-Men: Angel instead of Marvel Knights may have helped the comic sell more issues. At the shop that I was going to at the time I think that I was the only one who bought any copies of the series. When I would go to the shop the stands were full of Angel: Revelations comics. There were always at least 30 copies on the stands since I was the only one who was buying the comic.
Poor sales alone is a good reason alone to keep the comic AU even if there wasn't enough proof that the comic wasn't 616 already. I doubt if most readers even remember that the comic even existed. There is no point to confuse Angel's continuity just to use a story that no one liked or remembers.

The way that Marvel promoted the comic led one to believe that they thought that they had some great story that was being published.
In reality Angel: Revelations was a total dog of a comic that didn't need to be published in the first place. There's a reason no one remembers it.

If you want to put together a list of Archangel's most important stories, then go for it. Like you said, it might provide some help for people who want to read some good stories about Warren.

[Hakka84]

I think that Angel: Revelations is out of continuity and AU for several reasons.

First, Warren's mom is named Katheryn in 616 continuity. In Angel Revelations her name is Margaret.
Also, it's implied in Angel: Revelations that Warren's dad mistreats Warren's mom. That isn't consistent with 616 continuity.

Secondly, as others have pointed out, Revelations doesn't fit with Angel's time scale. Warren is already a senior in Revelations, and he graduates in it.. He can't really be a senior in that book and then have his age reduced when he joins the X-Men.

Another clue is that Revelations doesn't appear as if it can take place much earlier than the 1960's. The tech in Revelation's is pretty poor. Their are no cellphones in Revelations. The characters all use dial phones and landlines. Even the dial phones look like they may have been outdated by the time the 1960's come around. Warren and his family only communicate by phone about twice a weak. Cellphones would eliminate that. I know that cellphones may not have been as common back in the 90's, but Angel's family should have been able to afford them. Warren has to communicate with his parents in part by written letter. You could argue that is a choice that Warren makes on his own, but he could have just as easily sent an email.

I know that the first issue of X-Men was published in the 1960's.
But do to Marvel's floating time scale, any story that would have taken place in the past is shown as taken would have occurred 10 years ago. So, since Angel: Revelations was written in 2008 that means the story would have taken place in 1998. Most of the tech shown in Angel: Revelations would have been outdated by that point.
Maybe a better example would be when the Teen 05 X-Men traveled to the future in All New X-Men. They didn't arrive from the year 1960. They came from 2002, much later than the 1960's.

The whole Marvel Knights line is definitely not considered AU. Most of those stories count for sure.

I've never really understood why Angel: Revelations was labeled a Marvel Knights story. Most comics featuring X-Men characters at that time had X-Men in the title. For example, if a comic featured Colossus as the main character then comic would have been called X-Men: Colossus.

Calling Angel X-Men: Angel instead of Marvel Knights may have helped the comic sell more issues. At the shop that I was going to at the time I think that I was the only one who bought any copies of the series. When I would go to the shop the stands were full of Angel: Revelations comics. There were always at least 30 copies on the stands since I was the only one who was buying the comic.
Poor sales alone is a good reason alone to keep the comic AU even if there wasn't enough proof that the comic wasn't 616 already. I doubt if most readers even remember that the comic even existed. There is no point to confuse Angel's continuity just to use a story that no one liked or remembers.

The way that Marvel promoted the comic led one to believe that they thought that they had some great story that was being published.
In reality Angel: Revelations was a total dog of a comic that didn't need to be published in the first place. There's a reason no one remembers it.

If you want to put together a list of Archangel's most important stories, then go for it. Like you said, it might provide some help for people who want to read some good stories about Warren.

Want proof that my memory is abysmal? Go no further *poinst to quoted post above*
Seriously, I have the memory of a golden fish. I didn't remember all these inconsistencies.
It's still an issue that the origins story portrays a Warren (Avenging Angel) who is clearly of age/over 18, something that contradicts canon. so, at this point, everything fits and doesn't fit at the same time.

Agree to disagree on the opinion about Revelations.
I think it sold poorly also because of the art, which was very... different than what you would expect from a superhero comic book (and the story isn't strictly a superhero story in the first place). But I don't know the US comic market so I can't talk, and I don't know how it sold in Italy (in Italy the series was published straight to collected version, not in floppies).


I have compiled a couple of list on Tumblr, I will import them here, but I miss the most "obvious "titles, as I was replying to another person who was asked suggestions to start reading Warren.

[Thievery]

I went looking for more information on Angel: Revelations on other websites.

Marvel Database now includes Angel: Revelations as part of Angel's backstory. Maybe it included Revelations in his bio before, but I honestly don't remember it appearing in his bio on that site before. It only lists Amanda Cobb from the comic as being his girlfriend and says that Angel defeats an evil priest named the Hunter. It doesn't go into any other details about the series. Probably because it contradicts a good part of his history.
Amanda Cobb, Warren's girlfriend from Angel: Revelations is a big reason for why I don't like the comic.

Neither Uncanny X-Men.net nor Marvel's official website list any of Angel: Revelations as part of Angel's official backstory, including Amanda Cobb.

Since Marvel doesn't include it, I would say that Angel: Revelations is definitely AU.

Marvel's website lists Scarlet Witch as a former girlfriend of Angel's. I have no clue where that idea comes from. I don't think that even X-Men First Class had them as an actual couple, so I guess that Marvel must be wrong about this. They can't even get the history of characters that they own correctly. lol

Marvel's official website and Marvel Database have Cameron Hodge's bio written down word for word. So I guess that someone was feeling lazy when they wrote Hodge's bio for one of those sites. Even more strange is the fact that both sites list Candy Southern as Angel's fiancee under Hodge's bio, but neither site lists her as being engaged to Angel under his bio. Not being engaged is correct. The two sites also list Hodge as a collage roommate of Angel's under Hodge's bio even though that part must surely be wrong. So even their plagiarism is wrong on some facts.

Both Uncanny X-Men.net and Marvel Database list Cameron Hodge as a classmate at a private boarding school, not collage.

So I guess that the lesson from this is to not try and find information about a character from websites. Just ask someone here. If that person says that you are lazy and that you should just look it up yourself inform that person that websites are wrong, and ask a different friend of yours from this website.

[Thievery]

Want proof that my memory is abysmal? Go no further *poinst to quoted post above*
Seriously, I have the memory of a golden fish. I didn't remember all these inconsistencies.
It's still an issue that the origins story portrays a Warren (Avenging Angel) who is clearly of age/over 18, something that contradicts canon. so, at this point, everything fits and doesn't fit at the same time.

Agree to disagree on the opinion about Revelations.
I think it sold poorly also because of the art, which was very... different than what you would expect from a superhero comic book (and the story isn't strictly a superhero story in the first place). But I don't know the US comic market so I can't talk, and I don't know how it sold in Italy (in Italy the series was published straight to collected version, not in floppies).


I have compiled a couple of list on Tumblr, I will import them here, but I miss the most "obvious "titles, as I was replying to another person who was asked suggestions to start reading Warren.

You posted while I was away from my laptop and was in the middle of writing my previous post.

I liked the artwork, although I agree that many readers probably found it to be a turnoff.

Another strike against it was that it featured the feather winged version of the character, which has a hard time selling. Plus it was a flashback to an unpopular time in Angel's history.

And I'm being literal about the number of unsold copies of the series that were on the stands. The first couple of issues must have had 30 to 40 issues of each unsold. I really was the only person in the shop that I went to who bought a copy.

[Til]

What is "Archangel"? Phantom Wings, right?
I'd add:
- Marvel Fanfare (1982) #40.
- Ka-Zar (1970) #2/#3 (the debut of his uncle/Dazzler)
- Marvel Two-In-One #68 (team up with the Thing)

While searching for the titles above (I didn't remember which), I found also:
Tales of Suspense #49.
I've read it years ago so I don't remember if it's worthy.

There's also a story with him and Spidey in the Savage Land with Lykos/Sauron, but I can't find it ATM. Besides, it eventually involves the X-Men.


I'm not sure if Marvel has labelled Revelations officially out of continuity. Did they labelled out of continuity the whole Marvel Knight line perhaps?
Too bad, anyway. I think Revelations doesn't invalidate nor retcons anything to warrant the non-canon label. Especially when we have stories that break or clash with previously established canon and still are part of 616.

First Class, on the other end, stretches a bit with canon. I know, timescale and everything, but it's hard to fit First Class to Silver Age X-Men*.
But, as far as I remember, Marvel never officially labelled First Class offcanon? It's just in that "not AU but not properly fitting 616 either" status?

*Side note. The very ages of the First Class and Warren before coming to Xavier are confusing AF.
He got his wings at 13. But he's never portrayed so young in any origins/related story. Besides, if he was 17/18 by the time he enrolled at Xavier's, does it mean he was an underage when he was the Avenging Angel? When he rented the flat where he resides (where Bobby and Cyke find him)? He was 13 when he saved his mates at the boarding school?
Also, does it mean that Xavier's school is meant to be an alternative to university? I always thought the school was a private high-school level institution?

2nd Side note. Perhaps it's time we build up a suggested-reading-list for Warren to add to the first post of the topic for anyone who wants to read some decent Warren content?

Yes, "Archangel" is Phantom Wings. Thank you for the other recommendations, I'll check those out too. I also just realized that I was confusing First Class with The Hidden Years in my head. There are so many O5 series, lol. So for continuity it looks like:

Revelations: mostly OOC
Iceman and Angel: iffy
Phantom Wings: in continuity
Crimson Dawn: in continuity

I also agree wholeheartedly with having a list of recommended Angel reading for the first post. I think that'd be a useful resource for anyone who is not very familiar with Warren's publication history.

[Hakka84]

The two sites also list Hodge as a collage roommate of Angel's under Hodge's bio even though that part must surely be wrong. So even their plagiarism is wrong on some facts.

Both Uncanny X-Men.net and Marvel Database list Cameron Hodge as a classmate at a private boarding school, not collage.

I fear it's canon itself that is unrielable on the matters of Hodge.
X-Factor #1:


X-Factor #47:


So, we're told Hodge has been a college buddy (hence met after the First Class era - college means university in US, right?), but at the same time we're shown Hodge friends with Warren at the boarding school Warren was at before the X-Men.
(Besides Revelations, I don't think we've been ever told if the wings grew at the same boarding school of the fire/Warren disguised as Archangel Michael)

Edit: I've been surfing through Warren''s tag on my tumblr to recover the reading lists and... man, it's depressing how hopeful I was about X-Corps and Excalibur after the Queen!Betsy AU. ç_ç

[K7P5V]

And thank you for your pictures. Your better at posting them than I am.

How long did Hercules wear that uniform? I don't remember seeing it before. If Widow doesn't refer to him by name I don't think that I would recognize him.

LOL! My apologies for skipping your post. But yeah, Hercules somewhat wore a variation of it for only a handful of issues.
That one version first appeared in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed (1996):

[Thievery]

I fear it's canon itself that is unrielable on the matters of Hodge.
X-Factor #1:


X-Factor #47:


So, we're told Hodge has been a college buddy (hence met after the First Class era - college means university in US, right?), but at the same time we're shown Hodge friends with Warren at the boarding school Warren was at before the X-Men.
(Besides Revelations, I don't think we've been ever told if the wings grew at the same boarding school of the fire/Warren disguised as Archangel Michael)







Edit: I've been surfing through Warren''s tag on my tumblr to recover the reading lists and... man, it's depressing how hopeful I was about X-Corps and Excalibur after the Queen!Betsy AU. ç_ç

I forgot that Hodge is introduced as a collage roommate of Warren's. I still don't see how that fits, seeing as Archangel just bounced around from one super hero team to another. I'm not sure how he would have even found the time to attend collage. If he did manage to go to collage and graduate I don't know how he found the time. I don't remember any stories that suggest that Warren went to collage off the top of my head, but that doesn't really mean anything, given the other inconstant portrayals of Warren's backstory. If Angel does have stories that say that he went to school, then I don't own them.

Collage can indeed be used for university in the US, but I do believe that there is an actual difference between a collage and a university, and the two words probably shouldn't be interchangeable. In the US they just are.


Warren and Hodge both attend that same boarding school where the fire happens, if I remember correctly. I tried to do a quick search, but some places list the school as being in New York, while other ones list the school as being located in New Hampshire. But I believe it's where Angel wears the wig as a poor disguise.

LOL! My apologies for skipping your post. But yeah, Hercules somewhat wore a variation of it for only a handful of issues.
That one version first appeared in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed (1996):

Thanks guy. I haven't read a lot with Hercules in it.

I really enjoyed the World War Hulk team up that he had with Angel, Amadeus Cho, and Namora. I continued reading about Herc in his Incredible Hercules comic. Man , that was a long time ago.

But to keep this topic about Angel, I thought that he got to put in a good showing in World War Hulk. At first it looked like he was just being a jerk, but he ended up being proven more or less correct at the end of the story.

[Hakka84]

I forgot that Hodge is introduced as a collage roommate of Warren's. I still don't see how that fits, seeing as Archangel just bounced around from one super hero team to another. I'm not sure how he would have even found the time to attend collage. If he did manage to go to collage and graduate I don't know how he found the time. I don't remember any stories that suggest that Warren went to collage off the top of my head, but that doesn't really mean anything, given the other inconstant portrayals of Warren's backstory. If Angel does have stories that say that he went to school, then I don't own them.

I think it was implied that he went to (or was about to) college when he was in LA, right when Champions happened? Or before that?
I think at the time the time-sliding scale wasn't implemented yet, so "one real year = one year in comic". So the readers were left to think Warren went to college and graduated (possibly in something economy-related) between Giant Size and the next time he popped up in any superhero capacity? Basically "you haven't see the Angel lately because he's been busy getting his degree in Economics and Business (which levels, it's up to you).
I just can't see Warren managing his fortune with just a high school graduation title.
I seem to recall somewhere that his education level was listed and a degree was mentioned, but it could also be me remembering wrong or mixing up with, say, Bobby who got a degree, when we don't know).

It would make sense for Warren and Hodge to meet at a fancy college/uni, say Harward - Hodge is a lawyer if I recall, so they wouldn't be classmates. Hodge always struck me more as an "adult friend" type, not a "teenage friend I managed to keep even if we picked different high schools". My explanation would be that Hodge was meant to be a college mate and only later he was retconned as part of Warren's pre-X-Men history to give Hodge more time for his hatred of Warren to fester.
The only way to keep both XF#1 and XF#47, is pretend they had met at the boarding school, then they stumbled into each other at college/uni and resumed their friendship from then. Would explain why none of the O5 knew Hodge before X-Factor. IMHO.

[Hakka rambles]
Marvel should give up the sliding timescale and implement a "on Earth 616 year is amounts to our 1460 days" or something, so you can properly fit everything a character has done or needs to have done without squishing everything in a span of few months. This way you could have the First Class spend one 616-year (so roughly 4 of our years) at Xavier's before parting ways with Giant-Size, get one 616-year to enrol to university and get a degree, Jean can stay dead for some amount of time instead of three months, and so on.
[/Hakka rambles]

I thought that he got to put in a good showing in World War Hulk. At first it looked like he was just being a jerk, but he ended up being proven more or less correct at the end of the story.

I've never read World War Hulk. I remember back then I bought the Hulk issues with him, so I must have read them, but I don't remember much, besides Cho hacking/clearing Warren's bank account. I remember that the artist drew a wonderful Warren and big wings, though.
It's interesting, though, that Warren was one of the few who took Hulk's side - if I recall right - and put everything of his at risk for his choice. (or was he forced to taking that stance because of Cho? really, my memory is very fuzzy on WWH). Anyway, it was a good way to show that Warren has links in the broader MCU, and isn't just holed up in the X-Corner.

[Til]

It's interesting, though, that Warren was one of the few who took Hulk's side - if I recall right - and put everything of his at risk for his choice. (or was he forced to taking that stance because of Cho? really, my memory is very fuzzy on WWH).

The only thing that happened against Warren's will was Amadeus stealing a ton of his money. Which he was pissed about when Amadeus told him, but he stayed on the team because he still agreed that they should talk to Hulk rather than fight him. I really liked the team of Angel, Amadeus, Hercules and Namora. They worked well together and I enjoyed the scenes of them protecting New Yorkers from the fallout of the WWH battles.