Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[LoganAlpha30X33]

So far though even if when he comes back he so far doesn't have a roster spot.

[mattsarchamp]

Have faith. Last bet is he will be in the X-Factor team. As well as Iceman, Polaris, Bishop, Colossus, Domino (I wish) and some random X-kids (I hope Chamber, Hellion, or Kid Cable perhaps for something new).

[Hakka84]

Definitely too many candidates for one title.

[From The Shadows]

As someone who is/was a Burtsy shipper (Betsy being outed as gay put the kibosh on that) I used to like the pairing of Warren and Betsy quite a bit. I thought it was quite ironic that Claremont broke them up just to pair her with Neil Sharra at the time. Another rich playboy who was written as pretty much a braggart in comparison to Warren at the time. This took place in either 'Uncanny' or 'Adjectivless' then which CC was writing both, I don't remember which but it was during 'Revolution' before X-Treme. Stranger still I remember him saying that he didn't think Betsy would go for him. I don't remember Warren being particularly sexist myself but Neil was acting very macho and not the least bit interested in helping others. But then I'm not as well versed as Warren fans. It's been a long time ago since I read 'New Defenders,' 'X-Factor','90's X-Men.' 'Caseys X-Men'. I don't re-read books nearly as much as most fans. To me it appeared that Warren loved Betsy (especially during the 'Crimson Dawn' storyline) and she wasn't just a notch on his belt. That said, I don't hate Neal as I think he has potential for growth, or more growth, as I didn't read all of X-Treme. Anyway, I think the ship has long since sailed but I would still like to see them interact as friends.

Early Salvador Larocca art.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Claremont has admitted that the original plan was not to pair Neal and Betsy up. He only did it at all because he was leaving that book to start X-treme and only taking Neal and Betsy. So it was a rush job in the end. As for Betsy I'd say that she's bi and could date a guy again once she and Rachel split up, whenever that happens.

[From The Shadows]

Claremont has admitted that the original plan was not to pair Neal and Betsy up. He only did it at all because he was leaving that book to start X-treme and only taking Neal and Betsy. So it was a rush job in the end. As for Betsy I'd say that she's bi and could date a guy again once she and Rachel split up, whenever that happens.

I never heard that about Claremont at all. It was always that he didn't like the pairing. Thanks for the info. Anyway, I don't think CC particularly disliked Warren from what little he wrote. I mean he was never written as a jerk. I think he just didn't know what to do with him.

ETA: If Betts is bi, I still think that Warren and her is something that should be left behind IMHO. She obviously doesn't want to be with him anymore and it became one-sided.

[Hakka84]

(...)To me it appeared that Warren loved Betsy (especially during the 'Crimson Dawn' storyline) and she wasn't just a notch on his belt.

He definitely did. He broke up with her because he wanted more from their relationship and she wasn't ready/the same mind. He could've talked to her, instead of going "hey, I just decided we will break up bye", but he broke up because he loved her and he didn't see her loving him the same (and, with how quick she rebound on Neal, he wasn't wrong - not faulting Betsy here obvs but CC).

I don't remember how I took the breakup at the time. (I'm not even sure I had got my hands on Crimson Dawn when Revolution was out). Re-reading now, I'm not that much irked. I guess that everything was too quick/rushed. One day Betsy is hurt by Warren's breaking up, the next day she's already "I love you so much, Neal". If there had been more time to develop it, I think it would've mattered more and Neal would be more than a blip in Betsy's life - especially because Neal then vanished and they never met again.
I hate it that Fantomex had more impact on Betsy than Neal. Neal... yeah, it was arrogant and green, but with Betsy he was nice (if perhaps a bit more protective/worried for Betsy's sake, if I remember right).

I never heard that about Claremont at all. It was always that he didn't like the pairing. Thanks for the info. Anyway, I don't think CC particularly disliked Warren from what little he wrote. I mean he was never written as a jerk. I think he just didn't know what to do with him.

About Warren and CC.
In X-Men: The End, which is set some years after the canon of the time, Beast is still angry at Vargas for killing Betsy (who has returned in the title), and Warren (who is with him) goes "dude, cool off, it's been ages". Warren. The guy who in the Crimson Dawn gave up part of his life-force to save her soul.
And the rest of the times, when CC took up any title he made sure to never reference Warren unless he had to, or had Warren/Betsy break them up if they were together. Even in X-Men Forever, they didn't end up together. In his New Exiles run there's a genderswap five-members First Class team, and guess who is the only O5er who isn't in the team...
The only Warren who appears in his whole Exiles/New Exiles tenure is the evil one from the Shadow-X.
In Uncanny, he has Warren kidnapped by Callisto (you would expect Warren to be a bit more harder to be captured at that point).
I stand correct on House of M (as the issues with Warren weren't written by Claremont).
Anyway. Variety it's fine in itself (AUs, after all). But when it happens more than once you start to see a pattern.
At this point not even CC himself coming here to swear he likes Warren would change my mind.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Claremont didn't like Warren very much but had he stayed on the book and not left to start X-treme he would have left Betsy and Warren together, so who knows maybe they would have gotten married...as for Neal Claremont also admitted that he's a failure as a character.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Claremont didn't like Warren very much but had he stayed on the book and not left to start X-treme he would have left Betsy and Warren together, so who knows maybe they would have gotten married...as for Neal Claremont also admitted that he's a failure as a character.

Neal, the only character in the MU with a foot fetish.

[whitecrown]

I never heard that about Claremont at all. It was always that he didn't like the pairing. Thanks for the info. Anyway, I don't think CC particularly disliked Warren from what little he wrote. I mean he was never written as a jerk. I think he just didn't know what to do with him.

ETA: If Betts is bi, I still think that Warren and her is something that should be left behind IMHO. She obviously doesn't want to be with him anymore and it became one-sided.

I don't think CC disliked him, but I don't think he liked him either. He only put Warren on the team in his run because John Byrne was there and Byrne said there should always be a member of the O5 on the X-Men. It's no coincidence that after Byrne left the book, Claremont kicked out Warren. And he never seemed to know what to do with him besides make him a foil to Wolverine. People get hung up on the Cyclops/Wolverine rivalry but there was very little of it in Claremont's run. It more or less ended by the Proteus Saga. Meanwhile, Wolverine's first feud with a fellow X-Man was with Angel as seen in Classic X-Men #1 and this rivalry only intensified by the late 80s with Warren as Archangel and now able to deal as much damage to Wolverine as Wolverine could do to him. Claremont's plan was to reveal that Apocalypse was behind Wolverine's adamantium skeleton so just being close to Archangel would trigger Wolverine.

And apparently CC said that he broke up Warren and Betsy because he felt she was too good for him.

[whitecrown]

About Warren and CC.
In X-Men: The End, which is set some years after the canon of the time, Beast is still angry at Vargas for killing Betsy (who has returned in the title), and Warren (who is with him) goes "dude, cool off, it's been ages". Warren. The guy who in the Crimson Dawn gave up part of his life-force to save her soul.
And the rest of the times, when CC took up any title he made sure to never reference Warren unless he had to, or had Warren/Betsy break them up if they were together. Even in X-Men Forever, they didn't end up together. In his New Exiles run there's a genderswap five-members First Class team, and guess who is the only O5er who isn't in the team...
The only Warren who appears in his whole Exiles/New Exiles tenure is the evil one from the Shadow-X.
In Uncanny, he has Warren kidnapped by Callisto (you would expect Warren to be a bit more harder to be captured at that point).
I stand correct on House of M (as the issues with Warren weren't written by Claremont).
Anyway. Variety it's fine in itself (AUs, after all). But when it happens more than once you start to see a pattern.
At this point not even CC himself coming here to swear he likes Warren would change my mind.

I'm glad I never read X-Men: The End. I'm not surprised CC would write Warren to say that though especially since the original story isn't one he penned. Not that CC is all that faithful even to his own stories like when he had Wolverine chew out Rogue in that X-Treme X-Men revival for using his real name and how only his close friends could call him Logan and Rogue wasn't one of them. Which completely goes against all the Wolverine/Rogue characterization, most of which CC wrote.
Warren and Betsy were both sparingly used in X-Men Forever and I guess a point could be made that at that point on continuity, they weren't ever even a couple, but I don't think it's a coincidence that CC never had them interact there. Or that CC never really bothered to pull in Warren in any of his books save for occasional appearances.

Speaking of being kidnapped by Callisto, I also don't think it's a coincidence that in that original story, Warren has no role except to be propped up naked and unconscious like a discarded doll. We never see him captured, never get his reactions to anything going on around him. Apparently CC said he was going to do a later story dealing with Warren's trauma from the event but that never came to be.

It's pretty easy to tell who CC likes and dislikes based on which characters he repeatedly uses and which ones get the most content. I don't know how outspoken he is about which characters he dislikes save for Dazzler. He and Byrne have always been very explicit about disliking her and not viewing her as their creation.

[Hakka84]

Welcome back to the thread, whitecrown! I admit I thought about you a couple of times in these months, in a "I'm sure there was a Jean fan/someone with a Jean-related name who was a regular in this thread but it's been a while since they posted. Odd. Hope they're fine!"

So much to ponder and discuss about! You brought some juicy new bits - as you might have seen, we usually tend to circle around the same old same (lack of new things for Warren don't help). Aaaaaand... of course I have to retire to bed. Definitely gonna reply half a day from now. XD

[whitecrown]

Welcome back to the thread, whitecrown! I admit I thought about you a couple of times in these months, in a "I'm sure there was a Jean fan/someone with a Jean-related name who was a regular in this thread but it's been a while since they posted. Odd. Hope they're fine!"

So much to ponder and discuss about! You brought some juicy new bits - as you might have seen, we usually tend to circle around the same old same (lack of new things for Warren don't help). Aaaaaand... of course I have to retire to bed. Definitely gonna reply half a day from now. XD

Lol, glad you remembered me. You have a different avatar now but I remembered your username and that you're the Warren/Betsy fan since there are so few of us these days. I'm generally disenchanted with the current state of X-Men comics (but I've been like that for a long time now) which is why I took a hiatus.

It's a bit disheartening to see that all these months later, there's really nothing new with Warren besides this one-shot diving into his past relationships. I don't understand the editorial indifference towards him especially considering he's one of the O5. Good night, chat with you later.

[From The Shadows]

He definitely did. He broke up with her because he wanted more from their relationship and she wasn't ready/the same mind. He could've talked to her, instead of going "hey, I just decided we will break up bye", but he broke up because he loved her and he didn't see her loving him the same (and, with how quick she rebound on Neal, he wasn't wrong - not faulting Betsy here obvs but CC).

I actually think that showed some maturity. Instead of sticking in a broken relation he decided to let her go despite still loving her.

About Warren and CC.
In X-Men: The End, which is set some years after the canon of the time, Beast is still angry at Vargas for killing Betsy (who has returned in the title), and Warren (who is with him) goes "dude, cool off, it's been ages". Warren. The guy who in the Crimson Dawn gave up part of his life-force to save her soul.
[/QUOTE]

Yeesh. That is harsh. I read X-Men: The End but I don't remember that. Maybe I blocked it out. I stand corrected about Claremont's feelings on Warren.

And apparently CC said that he broke up Warren and Betsy because he felt she was too good for him.

So, I didn't imagine it. Though, Claremonts run is my favorite in all of X-Men, sometimes I have to sigh.

Re: Fantomex. I didn't like that relationship either as a Betsy fan. Even though I was no longer shipping her with Warren it felt forced and they lacked chemistry. I was like who would pick him over Warren?

[whitecrown]

So, I didn't imagine it. Though, Claremonts run is my favorite in all of X-Men, sometimes I have to sigh.

Re: Fantomex. I didn't like that relationship either as a Betsy fan. Even though I was no longer shipping her with Warren it felt forced and they lacked chemistry. I was like who would pick him over Warren?

CC is my favorite as well but he has some blindspots for certain characters. I do think he enjoyed Warren more as Archangel because he apparently told Louise Simonson that he was jealous he didn't come up with the idea of turning him into Archangel. Had Claremont not left when he did, I'd be curious to see if he would do anything interesting with Warren as Archangel. Ironically enough, John Byrne had the exact opposite feelings. I saw an interview he did from the 90s when he briefly returned to the X-Books and he specifically states that he hates Archangel and was going to return Warren right back into Angel. He didn't like the furry Beast either but it was his compromise that he'd keep Beast blue if Warren went back to normal.

Beast always seemed like CC's favorite O5 character after Jean. He uses those two characters most frequently. Cyclops he's hated since the Maddie incident and Iceman I always feel he had even less interest in than he did in Warren which is saying something.

I was okay with Fantomex. He grew on me especially as he was the Wolverine of the love triangle but I do think this idea that he was another great love of Betsy's life felt somewhat rushed especially so soon after Warren's death. I never bought them as becoming a permanent thing. I'd buy Betsy with Logan first like they did in that dark future in UXF. Betsy/Fantomex still worked for me in Remender's run but after that, I thought it became way too contrived with all the different Fantomexes running aroound especially by the point the real Warren came back.