Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Thievery]

Warren checks pretty much every privilege box. I suppose that if he was used nowadays, he'd be reduced to those boxes and I can't imagine any fan enjoying his constantly being berated for that.

We know he's much more. We want to see his being impetuous, courageous and heroic. A beautiful mixture of bright and dark, dutiful and free-spirited, smart and hotheaded. With his (literally) awesome imagery, his inspiring personality... Yeah, I know. I'm preaching to the choir again. :P

And, yes, there's always the risk of the Angel/Archangel drama.

You are suggesting that Archangel would be written as nothing more than a rich man?

I don't think that he will be pigeonholed that way again after what happened to him in the X-Corp comic. The story didn't really work.
I mean I guess that they could try for that again, but the rich entitled character role seems to go to Emma, Northstar, Monet, and most recently and most forcedly Sunspot. Sunspot actually seems to be written as a spoiled rich guy more than the others.
Warren seems to fit best into the role of an X-Force member right now.

Are you saying that it would be the writers or the readers who would constantly berate him for being a rich guy?

Every character is berated by some readers. Just like every character has it's fans, every character has people that hate it, judging from this forum. I mean Going Green seems to particularly dislike Angel, but I don't let it bother me when I come to this forum. I just agree with him on the stuff that we both like and mostly just ignore ignore the other.
And I'm sure that Fantomex or Quire fans aren't thrilled when I make posts that say that they are not characters that I like.
When I first joined the forum I was surprised at the amount of hate that members pour on characters that they don't like. I just learned to ignore it.
That and I'm afraid that I got used to it and started piling dislike on the characters that I don't like, even though I probably shouldn't have started doing that.

If it is the writers you are talking about than that is a problem if they don't like a particular character. Hopefully you avoid that by writers not having characters that they don't like forced on them.

Or am I misinterpreting every thing you posted entirely?

[Grinning Soul]

You are suggesting that Archangel would be written as nothing more than a rich man?

I don't think that he will be pigeonholed that way again after what happened to him in the X-Corp comic. The story didn't really work.
I mean I guess that they could try for that again, but the rich entitled character role seems to go to Emma, Northstar, Monet, and most recently and most forcedly Sunspot. Sunspot actually seems to be written as a spoiled rich guy more than the others.
Warren seems to fit best into the role of an X-Force member right now.

Are you saying that it would be the writers or the readers who would constantly berate him for being a rich guy?

Every character is berated by some readers. Just like every character has it's fans, every character has people that hate it, judging from this forum. I mean Going Green seems to particularly dislike Angel, but I don't let it bother me when I come to this forum. I just agree with him on the stuff that we both like and mostly just ignore ignore the other.
And I'm sure that Fantomex or Quire fans aren't thrilled when I make posts that say that they are not characters that I like.
When I first joined the forum I was surprised at the amount of hate that members pour on characters that they don't like. I just learned to ignore it.
That and I'm afraid that I got used to it and started piling dislike on the characters that I don't like, even though I probably shouldn't have started doing that.

If it is the writers you are talking about than that is a problem if they don't like a particular character. Hopefully you avoid that by writers not having characters that they don't like forced on them.

Or am I misinterpreting every thing you posted entirely?

I meant other characters berating him in-story. It's happened in other books.

I sent you an example in a private message.

Now, I'm not saying the same would happen for sure. But it's a risk for a character like him and I don't suppose we'd enjoy reading that.

[Thievery]

I meant other characters berating him in-story. It's happened in other books.

I sent you an example in a private message.

Now, I'm not saying the same would happen for sure. But it's a risk for a character like him and I don't suppose we'd enjoy reading that.

Yeah, okay I see what you mean. It's happened a few times before. Usually from Wolverine or Cyclops.
I don't personally have a problem with it as long as it leads to some sort of story. Or as long as it doesn't happen to often. I mean the guy does try to do the right thing most of the time, so if that was his only story I would be upset.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, okay I see what you mean. It's happened a few times before. Usually from Wolverine or Cyclops.
I don't personally have a problem with it as long as it leads to some sort of story. Or as long as it doesn't happen to often. I mean the guy does try to do the right thing most of the time, so if that was his only story I would be upset.

I guess we're used to an occasional taunt from another character, calling Warren a "playboy" or something of the sort. I'm talking about something more preachy like that example.

Hopefully, if a writer chooses to have him in the cast, we won't get that. :)

[Hakka84]

I feel left out now and I'll make my annoyance very vocal, Grinning Soul. D:
Since I'm feeling already masochist today (actually, I'm just curious!), PM me as well?

On the argument, I "side" with Thievery. I agree that, with Warren, there's always the risk of him being used for a writer to sh*t on the 1%-rich-white boy*. But I feel that Warren is now more stuck to the Archangel image, and his "rich-white" comes secondary. So, while I think it's likely to happen... never say never. Especially when there's no one at the X-Officer to fight for Warren ready to "protect" Warren.
Sure, not much reassuring: we fans have to pick between "Archangel drama again" and "Warren not Archangel but berated by his own found family to which he gave literally everything when he could've just joined the Hellfire Club and enjoyed the perks of being rich powerful"

*which is fairly idiotic, as Warren was never portrayed as the rich selfish guy that you'd want to slap around ever time he's on panel. Since when he inherited, he used his fortune to help the X-Men, mutants or humanity even to the risk of bankruptcy (see The Champions, technically as per canon the Champions expenses bankrupted him). He always sacrificed himself for the cause, often at the cost of his own health (both physical and mental), so he's not the right character to use for these meta-critiques.
The only time when he was painted in a bad light was the run with Lobo and Warren/Paige: the news sites Paige is reading on her laptop scream at Warren being an eco-terrorist, pointing fingers on his company. And Warren was portrayed as being ignorant to what his board and hic comopany were doing (so far as getting his ridiculous himbo-moment at Lobo Companies HQ with Northstar going "even I know that Lobo is your subsidiary and you, the bloody owner/CEO/whatever of Worthington Industries, don't?!?" or to Bobby Drake going all teaching-mode to Warren "you can't run your company through mail, you idiot, take your CEO job more seriously man".

IDK if my English even makes sense today.

[Grinning Soul]

I feel left out now and I'll make my annoyance very vocal, Grinning Soul. D:
Since I'm feeling already masochist today (actually, I'm just curious!), PM me as well?

Sorry, sweetie. I didn’t want to exclude you. It’s just that the example is not about Warren or even the X-Men.

I sent it to you too. :)

On the argument, I "side" with Thievery. I agree that, with Warren, there's always the risk of him being used for a writer to sh*t on the 1%-rich-white boy*. But I feel that Warren is now more stuck to the Archangel image, and his "rich-white" comes secondary. So, while I think it's likely to happen... never say never. Especially when there's no one at the X-Officer to fight for Warren ready to "protect" Warren.
Sure, not much reassuring: we fans have to pick between "Archangel drama again" and "Warren not Archangel but berated by his own found family to which he gave literally everything when he could've just joined the Hellfire Club and enjoyed the perks of being rich powerful"

*which is fairly idiotic, as Warren was never portrayed as the rich selfish guy that you'd want to slap around ever time he's on panel. Since when he inherited, he used his fortune to help the X-Men, mutants or humanity even to the risk of bankruptcy (see The Champions, technically as per canon the Champions expenses bankrupted him). He always sacrificed himself for the cause, often at the cost of his own health (both physical and mental), so he's not the right character to use for these meta-critiques.
The only time when he was painted in a bad light was the run with Lobo and Warren/Paige: the news sites Paige is reading on her laptop scream at Warren being an eco-terrorist, pointing fingers on his company. And Warren was portrayed as being ignorant to what his board and hic comopany were doing (so far as getting his ridiculous himbo-moment at Lobo Companies HQ with Northstar going "even I know that Lobo is your subsidiary and you, the bloody owner/CEO/whatever of Worthington Industries, don't?!?" or to Bobby Drake going all teaching-mode to Warren "you can't run your company through mail, you idiot, take your CEO job more seriously man".

IDK if my English even makes sense today.

It made sense to me. Don’t worry. :)

And I agree it’d be idiotic to see something like that example in the X-books, but depending on who is writing, I don’t think it’d be unthinkable. After all, someone green-lit that idiocy I sent you on the same publisher.

Again: I’m not saying this would happen for sure. It’s just a risk.

[Thievery]

I feel left out now and I'll make my annoyance very vocal, Grinning Soul. D:
Since I'm feeling already masochist today (actually, I'm just curious!), PM me as well?

On the argument, I "side" with Thievery. I agree that, with Warren, there's always the risk of him being used for a writer to sh*t on the 1%-rich-white boy*. But I feel that Warren is now more stuck to the Archangel image, and his "rich-white" comes secondary. So, while I think it's likely to happen... never say never. Especially when there's no one at the X-Officer to fight for Warren ready to "protect" Warren.
Sure, not much reassuring: we fans have to pick between "Archangel drama again" and "Warren not Archangel but berated by his own found family to which he gave literally everything when he could've just joined the Hellfire Club and enjoyed the perks of being rich powerful"

*which is fairly idiotic, as Warren was never portrayed as the rich selfish guy that you'd want to slap around ever time he's on panel. Since when he inherited, he used his fortune to help the X-Men, mutants or humanity even to the risk of bankruptcy (see The Champions, technically as per canon the Champions expenses bankrupted him). He always sacrificed himself for the cause, often at the cost of his own health (both physical and mental), so he's not the right character to use for these meta-critiques.
The only time when he was painted in a bad light was the run with Lobo and Warren/Paige: the news sites Paige is reading on her laptop scream at Warren being an eco-terrorist, pointing fingers on his company. And Warren was portrayed as being ignorant to what his board and hic comopany were doing (so far as getting his ridiculous himbo-moment at Lobo Companies HQ with Northstar going "even I know that Lobo is your subsidiary and you, the bloody owner/CEO/whatever of Worthington Industries, don't?!?" or to Bobby Drake going all teaching-mode to Warren "you can't run your company through mail, you idiot, take your CEO job more seriously man".

IDK if my English even makes sense today.

Well, there's the family word with Angel again. Yeah, he used his money to help the X-Men. It's actually spelled out that Angel wanted to use his wealth to help the family that he chose, and not just the one that he was born into. I think that the scene happens in the first issue of the Empyre crossover, after Angel learns that Magik was sent to keep an eye on Warren and Monet. It's kind of funny, because in the scene, he's talking to Xavier, who comes across as if he is trying to manipulate Warren. Or at least that's how it reads to me. Especially ironic because we find out later that Xavier only recruited Angel to the team because of his money. I think we may have talked about it in last year's thread for one or two posts.

I didn't know that Angel went broke in Champions. He seems to lose his money a lot. He must be pretty good at making money to always get it back again.

The Lobo Tech thing was kind of crazy. I don't have the comics at hand, but I'm pretty sure that Lobo Tech is supposed to make up something like at least 10% of Warren's holdings. It's hard to believe that Angel didn't know that that company existed and wasn't keeping an eye on it if it makes up that much of his business. Before that comic Angel had found out about the X-Ranch thing and that would be a lot harder to spot than Lobo Tech would.

But that's the plot that helped set up Angel/Paige, as Paige was meant to dislike the type corporate pollution that Lobo Tech represented. Was meant to show the contrast in Paige and Warren's family backgrounds.

[Sutekh]

I didn't know that Angel went broke in Champions. He seems to lose his money a lot. He must be pretty good at making money to always get it back again.

An annoying trend in comics is that any hero who is a CEO or ruler of some sort has to have their shinies taken away as part of the journey. And then, a year later, the next writer does it all over again. Repeat ad infinitum, and over a 40 year history, Tony Stark looks like the worst CEO *ever,* since his company has been hijacked from him by Stane, no wait, I mean Hammer, no wait, I mean Feilong, over and over until it's just a running gag that he's somehow got a multimillion dollar company that has been passed around like an endlessly regifted holiday fruitcake.

Ditto, rulers like Namor or Black Bolt have the kingdoms they rule usurped from them, blown up or vote them out over and over and over again, until it's not even a remotely interesting story any more, and one wonders why Marvel keeps hiring people *who don't want to write about CEOs (or kings)* and put them on books about characters who are CEOs (or kings).

And it's not like Xavier himself didn't already have money. Between Xavier, Warren, Emma, Roberto, Monet, Namor!, etc. there's a lot of old money in the X-folk. I'm not sure, but I think Betsy and Sean also had some old money in the family (Sean's past as a crook, ever so briefly, suggests not so much cash-flush liquidity, as some ratty old leprechaun-infested castle he can barely afford to keep). A meeting of the X-Money, to coordinate their financial dealings, could be amusing, as a one shot.

[Hakka84]

Grinning Soul
I indeed thought you were sharing examples with Warren. Thank you!
Still... I shudder. I don't even know how I could accept those panels, if I were a fan of Tony Stark.
I mean, he's an ass*hole at times, but that spiel was... *vomits*
We've been spared the same torture because Warren is considered C-list at most, I fear.

Well, there's the family word with Angel again. Yeah, he used his money to help the X-Men. It's actually spelled out that Angel wanted to use his wealth to help the family that he chose, and not just the one that he was born into. I think that the scene happens in the first issue of the Empyre crossover, after Angel learns that Magik was sent to keep an eye on Warren and Monet. It's kind of funny, because in the scene, he's talking to Xavier, who comes across as if he is trying to manipulate Warren. Or at least that's how it reads to me. Especially ironic because we find out later that Xavier only recruited Angel to the team because of his money. I think we may have talked about it in last year's thread for one or two posts.

I didn't know that Angel went broke in Champions. He seems to lose his money a lot. He must be pretty good at making money to always get it back again.

The Lobo Tech thing was kind of crazy. I don't have the comics at hand, but I'm pretty sure that Lobo Tech is supposed to make up something like at least 10% of Warren's holdings. It's hard to believe that Angel didn't know that that company existed and wasn't keeping an eye on it if it makes up that much of his business. Before that comic Angel had found out about the X-Ranch thing and that would be a lot harder to spot than Lobo Tech would.

But that's the plot that helped set up Angel/Paige, as Paige was meant to dislike the type corporate pollution that Lobo Tech represented. Was meant to show the contrast in Paige and Warren's family backgrounds.

Yes, we indeed talked about that Empyre dialogue.
Well, Monet did say he's considered some kind of economic genius-whatever. Perhaps we will be explained that make money is one of his secondary mutations! *LOL*
I agree on the Lobo thing. It would've made sense if the Lobo was 1% of Warren's stocks, not a 10% of the overall Worthington Industries holdings.
The more we discuss Warren's economic side, the more I wish X-Corp didn't tank or was released when it was meant to debut, and not when Krakoa fatigue was already starting.

An annoying trend in comics is that any hero who is a CEO or ruler of some sort has to have their shinies taken away as part of the journey. And then, a year later, the next writer does it all over again.
(...)
one wonders why Marvel keeps hiring people *who don't want to write about CEOs (or kings)* and put them on books about characters who are CEOs (or kings)
(...)
And it's not like Xavier himself didn't already have money. Between Xavier, Warren, Emma, Roberto, Monet, Namor!, etc. there's a lot of old money in the X-folk. I'm not sure, but I think Betsy and Sean also had some old money in the family (Sean's past as a crook, ever so briefly, suggests not so much cash-flush liquidity, as some ratty old leprechaun-infested castle he can barely afford to keep). A meeting of the X-Money, to coordinate their financial dealings, could be amusing, as a one shot.

I agree. It's become a meme at this point. I don't know how Iron Man fans can cope with that.

To be fair, when they do (see Tini Howard), either the writers should need a co-writer to steer the plot/fix what doesn't work, or the plot doesn't meet the interest of readers.

If I remember right, Karma is also very rich. Warren only owns a Fortune-100 company. Xavier's fortune increased over the years, with Krakoa!Xavier basically turned into the only heir to Musk, Gates, Rochilds, Bezos and a couple of uber-bilionaires.
If they put all their moneys together, they could buy out the whole US, debt included.
I would definitely want that one shot, though!

[Grinning Soul]

Grinning Soul
I indeed thought you were sharing examples with Warren. Thank you!
Still... I shudder. I don't even know how I could accept those panels, if I were a fan of Tony Stark.
I mean, he's an ass*hole at times, but that spiel was... *vomits*
We've been spared the same torture because Warren is considered C-list at most, I fear.

It's hard to predict anything at this point, since even editorial is changing in the X-Office.

Still, that pearl was published under Brevoort's watch. Now, I don't believe he reads every script published by his office, but he's still the boss. His name *is* printed in that comic book.

Anyway, I think the best we can do is to remain hopeful, but keep that hope contained inside a realistic frame.

[Thievery]

I read the Resurrection of Magneto comic. It implies that the mutant souls who were in the waiting room had moved on.

I need someone to help me out here. Was the waiting room still functioning when Warren was killed?

Because if it was Archangel's soul could be among the ones that just packed up and left. The character could be out of circulation for quite a while. I hope not but the comics and some interviews by JDW and have made it kind of clear that Angel isn't really well thought of by Marvel right now.

Even the best thing that Steve Foxe could say about Archangel when he talked about Dark X-Men was that he was about to become the symbol that he needed to be.

[Grinning Soul]

I read the Resurrection of Magneto comic. It implies that the mutant souls who were in the waiting room had moved on.

I need someone to help me out here. Was the waiting room still functioning when Warren was killed?

I don't suppose there's anything wrong with the Waiting Room itself, so the answer is probably 'yes'.

Because if it was Archangel's soul could be among the ones that just packed up and left. The character could be out of circulation for quite a while. I hope not but the comics and some interviews by JDW and have made it kind of clear that Angel isn't really well thought of by Marvel right now.

Neither is JDW... :P

Even the best thing that Steve Foxe could say about Archangel when he talked about Dark X-Men was that he was about to become the symbol that he needed to be.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Waiting Room thing.

The main hurdle for Warren is having a writer who is willing to write him. We know Marvel does/undoes any BS when they want, so I don't think this changes anything. They'll just have an excuse not to use him if they don't want to use him. But if that's the case, they wouldn't use him with or without an excuse anyway...

[Hakka84]

I read the Resurrection of Magneto comic. It implies that the mutant souls who were in the waiting room had moved on.

I need someone to help me out here. Was the waiting room still functioning when Warren was killed?

Because if it was Archangel's soul could be among the ones that just packed up and left. The character could be out of circulation for quite a while. I hope not but the comics and some interviews by JDW and have made it kind of clear that Angel isn't really well thought of by Marvel right now.

I thought the same when I read the review thread for Resurrection of Magneto #1. My first thought was "goodbye Warren".
The X-Men as a whole (minus the ones in the WHR and those on Mars) already have forgotten about him, so...
At this point, my only hope is at least a mention in the future Unlimited/X-Corp comics, as in "with Monet and Warren out, I took over the island" from Sunspot.

[The Thunderbird]

I read the Resurrection of Magneto comic. It implies that the mutant souls who were in the waiting room had moved on.

I need someone to help me out here. Was the waiting room still functioning when Warren was killed?

Because if it was Archangel's soul could be among the ones that just packed up and left. The character could be out of circulation for quite a while. I hope not but the comics and some interviews by JDW and have made it kind of clear that Angel isn't really well thought of by Marvel right now.

Even the best thing that Steve Foxe could say about Archangel when he talked about Dark X-Men was that he was about to become the symbol that he needed to be.

The Waiting Room was really only made to help back up mutants that were not backed up by Cerebro. There's no reason why the original resurrection protocols couldn't work as long as the mutants get their hands on a Cerebro backup once the Five escape the White Hot Room.

[Hakka84]

The Waiting Room was really only made to help back up mutants that were not backed up by Cerebro. There's no reason why the original resurrection protocols couldn't work as long as the mutants get their hands on a Cerebro backup once the Five escape the White Hot Room.

I haven't been following the titles (I just read the reviews here), but was Cerbero still working/not damaged after the Hellfire Gala?+
Because I took for granted that it was disabled and or/damaged during the attack.