Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Micabe]

Well Jean as the Phoenix could bring Warren back and just ignore Foxe and his crappy writing of Warren.

I honestly can't name one person, mutant or otherwise, that Jean Grey has brought back...

[marhawkman]

I honestly can't name one person, mutant or otherwise, that Jean Grey has brought back...

Hmmm there was that scene with the shattered Emma.

But Emma wasn't really dead apparently part of her Diamond form is she doesn't die in diamond form when shattered, so she wasn't really dead.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Well it would be less Jean and more Phoenix doing the resurrecting. An easy way to get characters back before the new books start.

[Hakka84]

I don't think they would go the Phoenix route nor that it would be in character for Jean to do it either.
I think Phoenix ever resurrected people only when she recreated realities? I'm sure that, if she/it wanted, she/it could bring back dead people, but not sure she/it would be interested in. The Phoenix Force minds the big scope, not the single mortals (besides Jean's mortal coils, obviously). And no, I can't recall anyone ever resurrected by Phoenix (besides Jean herself).
Said this, everything's possible in a comic book.

We've seen Warren return (albeit mentally, not physically) from death (Rachel was adamant the old Warren was gone gone) with no explanation given, when new!Warren was returned to his old/canon self in Psylocke's Uncanny X-Men.
I wouldn't be much worried about the how. There's literally dozens of ways to resurrect Warren - from pretending that the Archangel Gambit blew up was a copy and the real one is still in Orchis Hands (what would be the excuse #1 in the old good days), to the method that will be used by Storm to bring back Magnus.
Not that he would get an entire page about the how he returned (let alone an entire one shot, or an entire arch like Claremont's Psylocke), though. He would likely pop up in the background and the author would pretend we don't remember that the last time we saw Warren, he was a corpse on the bottom of the Ocean. And this is the writer even knew themselves that Warren is dead in the first place.

What I'm worried about is actually the "is X-Office interested in the first place?".


Side point. I've been dwelling into Betsy's 2000s for my fics reasons, and the "dead stay dead" policy.
After the non-stop feast of resurrections, I wouldn't be marvelled if, after they fixed the Fall storyline (so hopefully Jean back), X-Office put into place a "from now on and for the next [x] years, death means death, so plan your killings carefully, authors". And Warren, as one of the few (only?) prominent* mutant who is currently dead...

* I'm including all characters who had been part of a main team in any title, from big ones like Storm down to any of the Young X-Men.


Can we please get back to fooling around with useless discussions about Warren's costumes? This is getting depressing, again.
(kidding, I'm not meaning we should obsess over his costumes!)


Edit. I would totally die if
1) an author remembered Warren died
2) an author was interested in bringing him back
3) an author pitched the story and was greenlit
4) the story features Apoccy using his ways to bring back his wayward adoptive son slash Death Jr..

(now, picture these four lines plastered on the blown-mind meme)

[Thievery]

I don't think they would go the Phoenix route nor that it would be in character for Jean to do it either.
I think Phoenix ever resurrected people only when she recreated realities? I'm sure that, if she/it wanted, she/it could bring back dead people, but not sure she/it would be interested in. The Phoenix Force minds the big scope, not the single mortals (besides Jean's mortal coils, obviously). And no, I can't recall anyone ever resurrected by Phoenix (besides Jean herself).
Said this, everything's possible in a comic book.

We've seen Warren return (albeit mentally, not physically) from death (Rachel was adamant the old Warren was gone gone) with no explanation given, when new!Warren was returned to his old/canon self in Psylocke's Uncanny X-Men.
I wouldn't be much worried about the how. There's literally dozens of ways to resurrect Warren - from pretending that the Archangel Gambit blew up was a copy and the real one is still in Orchis Hands (what would be the excuse #1 in the old good days), to the method that will be used by Storm to bring back Magnus.
Not that he would get an entire page about the how he returned (let alone an entire one shot, or an entire arch like Claremont's Psylocke), though. He would likely pop up in the background and the author would pretend we don't remember that the last time we saw Warren, he was a corpse on the bottom of the Ocean. And this is the writer even knew themselves that Warren is dead in the first place.

What I'm worried about is actually the "is X-Office interested in the first place?".


Side point. I've been dwelling into Betsy's 2000s for my fics reasons, and the "dead stay dead" policy.
After the non-stop feast of resurrections, I wouldn't be marvelled if, after they fixed the Fall storyline (so hopefully Jean back), X-Office put into place a "from now on and for the next [x] years, death means death, so plan your killings carefully, authors". And Warren, as one of the few (only?) prominent* mutant who is currently dead...

* I'm including all characters who had been part of a main team in any title, from big ones like Storm down to any of the Young X-Men.


Can we please get back to fooling around with useless discussions about Warren's costumes? This is getting depressing, again.
(kidding, I'm not meaning we should obsess over his costumes!)


Edit. I would totally die if
1) an author remembered Warren died
2) an author was interested in bringing him back
3) an author pitched the story and was greenlit
4) the story features Apoccy using his ways to bring back his wayward adoptive son slash Death Jr..

(now, picture these four lines plastered on the blown-mind meme)

I think that the speculation that Phoenix/Jean may resurrect Warren comes from some rumors that Jean is going to use the Phoenix to resurrect all of the characters who were killed at the end of the Krakoa era. The rumors are said to be spoilers but right now they really are just rumors. They made their way to this forum from another site. Don't know which thread that you should look into to find them, though.

Right now, the X-Office doesn't seem interested in Archangel, but what really counts is what the next regime thinks of the character. If they don't want him he may not come back for a while.

I've said my piece about Archangel, Apocalypse, and what I think of Archangel's use in Krakoa already. Part of it was not using Apocalypse with Warren was a missed opportunity. Warren should have been in Excalibur to start, not Gambit. I thought that it would be smart to separate Warren from Apocalypse and Betsy for a change though, so I can't really fault the X-Office for thinking the same.
And it just looks like a situation where the writer of the X-Corp comic had good intentions, but it just sort of turned into a mess for the character.

[Thievery]

I don't think they would go the Phoenix route nor that it would be in character for Jean to do it either.
I think Phoenix ever resurrected people only when she recreated realities? I'm sure that, if she/it wanted, she/it could bring back dead people, but not sure she/it would be interested in. The Phoenix Force minds the big scope, not the single mortals (besides Jean's mortal coils, obviously). And no, I can't recall anyone ever resurrected by Phoenix (besides Jean herself).
Said this, everything's possible in a comic book.

We've seen Warren return (albeit mentally, not physically) from death (Rachel was adamant the old Warren was gone gone) with no explanation given, when new!Warren was returned to his old/canon self in Psylocke's Uncanny X-Men.
I wouldn't be much worried about the how. There's literally dozens of ways to resurrect Warren - from pretending that the Archangel Gambit blew up was a copy and the real one is still in Orchis Hands (what would be the excuse #1 in the old good days), to the method that will be used by Storm to bring back Magnus.
Not that he would get an entire page about the how he returned (let alone an entire one shot, or an entire arch like Claremont's Psylocke), though. He would likely pop up in the background and the author would pretend we don't remember that the last time we saw Warren, he was a corpse on the bottom of the Ocean. And this is the writer even knew themselves that Warren is dead in the first place.

What I'm worried about is actually the "is X-Office interested in the first place?".


Side point. I've been dwelling into Betsy's 2000s for my fics reasons, and the "dead stay dead" policy.
After the non-stop feast of resurrections, I wouldn't be marvelled if, after they fixed the Fall storyline (so hopefully Jean back), X-Office put into place a "from now on and for the next [x] years, death means death, so plan your killings carefully, authors". And Warren, as one of the few (only?) prominent* mutant who is currently dead...

All right, you don't want Archangel brought back by the Phoenix. Is there a particular way that you do want him brought back? You've listed some ways for it to happen, but do you have a favored method?

But I also noticed your signature.
It says "First Warren in Dark X-Men#1 and then Genis-Vell in Captain Marvel #1. Seriously, Marvel". I thought that you were fans of both characters, and were just mad just mad that both characters had been killed.

I just read some Captain Marvel comics.I didn't realize that both characters had been killed and then resurrected as zombie or mind controlled henchmen at the same time in different comic books. Though it looks like Genis-Vell has some memory and can think for himself a little bit. But I guess that it must be pretty frustrating to see two of your favorites killed in the same manner so quickly togather

[Grinning Soul]

I honestly can't name one person, mutant or otherwise, that Jean Grey has brought back...

On the top of my head, the PF animated Jean's clone, revived Jean's body during Endsong (and somehow brought Jean's soul/essence into it later), then brought Scott back to life briefly during the Resurrection story.

The PF's fire/essence/whatever was also used by kid Cable to bring Scott back later in his resurrection story.

So it would not be a stretch to say that Jean could do that if she had the Phoenix Force with her. Why didn't Scott do that after the killed Xavier at the end of AvX? I'll leave it to Marvel (not) to answer.

Anyway, before we end up derailing Warren's thread, if you want to discuss it further, PM me, all right? :)

[PhoenixStudies]

Jean also said to a dying Xavier, "die, Charles. I'll catch you". So he did die, but Jean caught his mind/soul with her mind. She stored him inside her own head before dividing him between all mutants. Then when Cassie tried to kill mutants with Cerebra, his mind came back together into his body--kicking Cassie out of his body.

Emma's body had been killed and shattered, but her mind/soul was still lingering. Jean healed Emma's body by fusing the diamond molecules back together telekinetically, allowing her mind to go back into her body.

May not be resurrection proper, but Jean certainly snatched Xavier and Emma from death.

Also, Phoenix fire was used to temporarily bring back dead cuckoos in Endsong and Warsong.

The Phoenix told Jean that she could bring back the Greys and Scott with the power in Phoenix Resurrection. Jean was like, nah. I'm good. lol

In the first X-Men Forever mini series, The Stranger tells Jean that the Phoenix is the Resurrection Force.

[Hakka84]

All right, you don't want Archangel brought back by the Phoenix. Is there a particular way that you do want him brought back? You've listed some ways for it to happen, but do you have a favored method?

I'm not against it, actually. It would be nice for Jean to do something she seldom does, just to bring back one of his closest and best friends. I just didn't feel it would be something that the Phoenix would do. But PhoenixStudies and Grinning Soul proved me partially wrong.
I take for granted the Resurrection Protocols don't return (I don't see them brought back: they could easily bring them back, or use Wanda's Waiting Room-whats-the-name to replace Cerbero, but they still need the DNA that Sinister provided).

Said this. I don't have a preferred method.
No, actually. I would love for Poccy to be involved in any way. I'm becoming a broken record on the Poccy-Warren link, right? :P
But it would be interesting is he were the one to notice Warren isn't between the WHR mutants (when these return to Earth) and, with the RP down, finds a different way/presses for Warren to be brought back.
He already returned Warren to life in a way (X-Factor), now he would give Warren back his life again by literally bringing him back from death.

Yes, it sucks. Genis is at least still... standing? Existing?
When I added the signature he was portrayed as dead with the hole in the chest.
I'm scared of what they'll do to him when the archs comes to an ending and if someone will fix him. I got the feeling only Davis cares for Genis, and is a redundant character with Carol holding the Cap Marvel title. I fear.

Anyway, before we end up derailing Warren's thread, if you want to discuss it further, PM me, all right?

To be fair, we don't have much to talk about. ^^"

Thank you both for correcting me.
I see that Jean//Phoenix mostly saved people in the immediacy of death, though?

[Grinning Soul]

To be fair, we don't have much to talk about. ^^"

Never underestimate the power of passionate Jean's fans to make it all about Jean. :P

Thank you both for correcting me.
I see that Jean//Phoenix mostly saved people in the immediacy of death, though?

In the case of Jean's (Phoenix: Endsong) and Scott's (Phoenix: Resurrection) bodies, they were both dead and buried for a while to the point of rotting. So, *really* dead.

EDITED: Scott's resurrection story (the one that sticks) actually happens in Uncanny X-Men Annual, though, and it is a direct consequence of the events of Phoenix: Ressurection.

EDITED: Sophie's body was also buried and rotten in Phoenix: Endsong, but that case is harder to tell exactly what happened. She's brought back, says, "Quentin? Eww. Whatever" and "dies" again. But yes, she had been dead for a while too.

[Thievery]

On the top of my head, the PF animated Jean's clone, revived Jean's body during Endsong (and somehow brought Jean's soul/essence into it later), then brought Scott back to life briefly during the Resurrection story.

The PF's fire/essence/whatever was also used by kid Cable to bring Scott back later in his resurrection story.

So it would not be a stretch to say that Jean could do that if she had the Phoenix Force with her. Why didn't Scott do that after the killed Xavier at the end of AvX? I'll leave it to Marvel (not) to answer.

Anyway, before we end up derailing Warren's thread, if you want to discuss it further, PM me, all right?

Your not really derailing anything seeing as Jean bringing people back to life was what was being talked about anyway.

I'm not against it, actually. It would be nice for Jean to do something she seldom does, just to bring back one of his closest and best friends. I just didn't feel it would be something that the Phoenix would do. But PhoenixStudies and Grinning Soul proved me partially wrong.
I take for granted the Resurrection Protocols don't return (I don't see them brought back: they could easily bring them back, or use Wanda's Waiting Room-whats-the-name to replace Cerbero, but they still need the DNA that Sinister provided).

Said this. I don't have a preferred method.
No, actually. I would love for Poccy to be involved in any way. I'm becoming a broken record on the Poccy-Warren link, right? :P
But it would be interesting is he were the one to notice Warren isn't between the WHR mutants (when these return to Earth) and, with the RP down, finds a different way/presses for Warren to be brought back.
He already returned Warren to life in a way (X-Factor), now he would give Warren back his life again by literally bringing him back from death.

Yes, it sucks. Genis is at least still... standing? Existing?
When I added the signature he was portrayed as dead with the hole in the chest.
I'm scared of what they'll do to him when the archs comes to an ending and if someone will fix him. I got the feeling only Davis cares for Genis, and is a redundant character with Carol holding the Cap Marvel title. I fear.


To be fair, we don't have much to talk about. ^^"

Thank you both for correcting me.
I see that Jean//Phoenix mostly saved people in the immediacy of death, though?

I think it would be really cool if Jean brought a bunch of people back. You could probably get plenty of stories out of what would happen if the Phoenix brought that many characters back to life at once. Especially characters who shouldn't be able to use the Phoenix. Marvel got one (bad) crossover out of the Phoenix being split among five characters in AvX. They could get some (hopefully better) stories out of a mass resurrection.

I'll say that if it is used to bring back Warren that I'd be a little afraid that they would make him a villain again.
But this is all really just fan speculation anyway.

I wouldn't worry about Genis-Vell being redundant. Marvel doesn't really seem to care about all of the other redundant characters that they have. I think that they should, but they love them. So Genis shouldn't be in to much trouble.

And as for the thread itself, well there are plenty of characters who aren't doing things worth talking about. Those threads are still going.

[Grinning Soul]

Your not really derailing anything seeing as Jean bringing people back to life was what was being talked about anyway.

Not yet, but wherever the Phoenix is involved, there's a big risk this happens. I was just trying to per-emptively avoid it. :)

And as for the thread itself, well there are plenty of characters who aren't doing things worth talking about. Those threads are still going.

This is true, but I think the problem is that we don't even know on which direction the writers might take him. All we can say is what we'd like to see happening.

I love Warren. I think he has enormous potential, but I'm done with the Archangel personality.

I'd love to see more of his original personality (heroic before anything else, courageous, impetuous, loyal to a fault, charm oozing from his pores, a little conceited because he *knows* he's all that, etc...) shine through, but taking into consideration all the stuff that has happened to him.

This contrast between brightness and darkness just works well for heroes (better than anti-heroes in my opinion) and it works particularly well on a character with Warren's background and history.

[Hakka84]

I think it would be really cool if Jean brought a bunch of people back. You could probably get plenty of stories out of what would happen if the Phoenix brought that many characters back to life at once. Especially characters who shouldn't be able to use the Phoenix. Marvel got one (bad) crossover out of the Phoenix being split among five characters in AvX. They could get some (hopefully better) stories out of a mass resurrection.

You implying the resurrected would keep a sparkle/splinter of the Phoenix?
I'm... intrigued.
Remember, I'm obsessed by ascended!Archangel during DAS who stands against AoA!Jean and her Phoenix, and the Phoenix almost sides with him.

I love Warren. I think he has enormous potential, but I'm done with the Archangel personality.

I'd love to see more of his original personality (heroic before anything else, courageous, impetuous, loyal to a fault, charm oozing from his pores, a little conceited because he *knows* he's all that, etc...) shine through, but taking into consideration all the stuff that has happened to him.

This contrast between brightness and darkness just works well for heroes (better than anti-heroes in my opinion) and it works particularly well on a character with Warren's background and history.

I think me and Thievery have talked ad nauseam about this. While I agree with you, I don't think there's a viable way to use Warren without Archangel. Unless you're talking specifically to the whole "bipolarity" thing. That I agree (although I wouldn't dislike if the comics used it to tell the tale of bipolarity and how to cope with it - if comics still tackled these serious thematics and authors were able to do them in decent ways).

[Grinning Soul]

I think me and Thievery have talked ad nauseam about this. While I agree with you, I don't think there's a viable way to use Warren without Archangel. Unless you're talking specifically to the whole "bipolarity" thing. That I agree (although I wouldn't dislike if the comics used it to tell the tale of bipolarity and how to cope with it - if comics still tackled these serious thematics and authors were able to do them in decent ways).

He can keep the wings and the powers. I'm talking about having the personality taking control.

The way I see it, you can only revisit most stories so much before they lose their power or become so defining for the character that it severely limits them. They become that thing.

Personally, I'd think it'd be much more interesting to see Warren fully in control, dealing with the stuff he did in his past, while still being a hero. The darkness could become an extra reason to be bright, you know? Every time he would think of doing something morally wrong (or even reprehensible), he could question if that was still some Archangel influence or if his soul had been forever "tainted" by his "sins" (no religious connotation, but just the kind of question that might haunt him). So while he's back being his charming, decisive, heroic self, while that is even genuine to some extent, he would have this extra layer both making him question himself, but also motivating him to be the best man and hero he can be.

That's just one facet. The fact he's super rich could also be something else to explore. It should *not* be at the center of the stories, because it should be about heroics first, but the boy was a hero before he was an X-Men. It's in his heart. How could he use his money in a sustainable way to improve the world significantly, you know?

Then there is the loneliness that comes with being "all that." The fact most people get distracted with his looks, his money, his wings... Not many people actually *see* him.

There's so much opportunity for inner dialogue that I think he could have a solo series. With a good writer, it could even be an ongoing.

It boggles my mind when I read JDW or some other writer saying he's not very interesting. It makes me scream inside, "Are you kidding me?"

[Hakka84]

He can keep the wings and the powers. I'm talking about having the personality taking control.

The way I see it, you can only revisit most stories so much before they lose their power or become so defining for the character that it severely limits them. They become that thing.

Personally, I'd think it'd be much more interesting to see Warren fully in control, dealing with the stuff he did in his past, while still being a hero. The darkness could become an extra reason to be bright, you know? Every time he would think of doing something morally wrong (or even reprehensible), he could question if that was still some Archangel influence or if his soul had been forever "tainted" by his "sins" (no religious connotation, but just the kind of question that might haunt him). So while he's back being his charming, decisive, heroic self, while that is even genuine to some extent, he would have this extra layer both making him question himself, but also motivating him to be the best man and hero he can be.

That's just one facet. The fact he's super rich could also be something else to explore. It should *not* be at the center of the stories, because it should be about heroics first, but the boy was a hero before he was an X-Men. It's in his heart. How could he use his money in a sustainable way to improve the world significantly, you know?

Then there is the loneliness that comes with being "all that." The fact most people get distracted with his looks, his money, his wings... Not many people actually *see* him.

There's so much opportunity for inner dialogue that I think he could have a solo series. With a good writer, it could even be an ongoing.

It boggles my mind when I read JDW or some other writer saying he's not very interesting. It makes me scream inside, "Are you kidding me?"

I'm crying. Thank you. ç_ç
This post. I want to print it and plaster it on the wall. PERFECTION.

(Well, I don't have a printer, but you get the feeling)