Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Hakka84]

While I mostly agree with this part, it seems clear that Apocalypse is deeply disappointed in three out of four of his old kids. A pseudo-rivalry / friendship between the one who hasn't disappointed him, Death, and Warren, his modern day chosen heir, could be interesting.

The 'son from the first wife' meeting the 'son from the new wife' sort of dynamic, only with that crazy comics twist.

"Hm. He called *you* Death? You can't even kill people by looking at them! I do like the idea of being able to fly high above it all, that sounds... serene..."

Were I can buy this comic?
Let's not forget Death flirted with Betsy.

"Did you really flirt with my ex? I have to warn you, she has a tendency to kill you..."

But seriously, I would love to see them interact. One of the things I hated about X of Swords: the lack of Warren. My dream X of Swords would've been Genesis+sons Vs Apoccy+ the team of Horsemen from the Unknown Comics cover

I know that this team would be underpowered against the First Horsemen in a serious fight. Still...
(also, I would love to see Warren wielding some sword again after the brief time in Black Vortex. When he was memoryless, I think it was established that he's a natural fencer/can fence without any training)

Warren Worthington/Bruce Wayne, the crossover we need in the next Amalgam event!
Throw in Tony Stark as a spoiler with the ladies...

That would make for an awful dystopia. The three together would buy the world. *lol*
But, seriously, a genius like Tony merged with a resourceful fighter and with the powers and flying/air-training of Warren. I just... *blue screen*

[Hakka84]

While you're reading X-Men Forever, I wonder what you think of CC's characterization of Warren because it felt OOC to me. Partly because this was the Archangel angsty period and CC seemed to ignore that and write him like it was still 1981.

I haven't finished vol 1 of X-Men Forever yet but... man this is such a mess.

About Warren. Hm.
Warren's voice itself is PERFECT. The banter/exchange of jokes between him and Bobby is perfection, as his declaration of I-love-but-cannot-suffer-him about Scott.
But the timing makes no sense, I agree. He was "blue" not only physically but in mood too, at that specific time.

The canon itself is a bit stretched, as if CC kept only what he liked from X-Factor and discarded the rest. So, you have Nate who is happily living in Alaska with Scott's dad and granma, but Apocalypse is mentioned by Xavier. Warren is named Archangel but we never see him as Archangel, so far that in the prequel story/chapter #0 he has pink skin and feathers wings (Jean picks the thoughts of someone who is wondering why Warren feels the need to hide himself when he's between friends).
Also. Hank's jab at Warren "shouldn't you be blue" with Warren replying "ah ah ah funny", felt one of those jokes authors put in AUs (like placing in the mouth of a pink-skinned Hank "it could've been worse. I could be covered in fur!"), more than a jab about "why are you hiding your blue skin?".

I don't plan to see Warren again.
As per Xavier's word: "The team decided that of all the school's students... only these eight of the X-Men will remain active. The rest, shepherded by Archangel, will keep the lowest of profile.
Love that at least he''s been put in some kind of guidance role.

(Why would Kitty think about Betsy as "her best big sister"? Betsy was introduced to X-Men when Kitty was already out of the team, and Betsy appeared in Excalibur with a cameo, why would they have such a close relationship? Brian is "like a brother" for Kitty, but Betsy.... meh.
And I won't comment on Jean. I though the whole "Hank has been harbouring romantic feelings/attraction for Jean" was an invention of the time-displaced authors. Apparently, the first was CC. I swear, but the end of this series I can bet Jean has mouth-kissed everyone but Warren).

Anyway. If you deconstextualize the scene, this page is gold:

[whitecrown]

I haven't finished vol 1 of X-Men Forever yet but... man this is such a mess.

About Warren. Hm.
Warren's voice itself is PERFECT. The banter/exchange of jokes between him and Bobby is perfection, as his declaration of I-love-but-cannot-suffer-him about Scott.
But the timing makes no sense, I agree. He was "blue" not only physically but in mood too, at that specific time.

The canon itself is a bit stretched, as if CC kept only what he liked from X-Factor and discarded the rest. So, you have Nate who is happily living in Alaska with Scott's dad and granma, but Apocalypse is mentioned by Xavier. Warren is named Archangel but we never see him as Archangel, so far that in the prequel story/chapter #0 he has pink skin and feathers wings (Jean picks the thoughts of someone who is wondering why Warren feels the need to hide himself when he's between friends).
Also. Hank's jab at Warren "shouldn't you be blue" with Warren replying "ah ah ah funny", felt one of those jokes authors put in AUs (like placing in the mouth of a pink-skinned Hank "it could've been worse. I could be covered in fur!"), more than a jab about "why are you hiding your blue skin?".

I don't plan to see Warren again.
As per Xavier's word: "The team decided that of all the school's students... only these eight of the X-Men will remain active. The rest, shepherded by Archangel, will keep the lowest of profile.
Love that at least he''s been put in some kind of guidance role.

(Why would Kitty think about Betsy as "her best big sister"? Betsy was introduced to X-Men when Kitty was already out of the team, and Betsy appeared in Excalibur with a cameo, why would they have such a close relationship? Brian is "like a brother" for Kitty, but Betsy.... meh.
And I won't comment on Jean. I though the whole "Hank has been harbouring romantic feelings/attraction for Jean" was an invention of the time-displaced authors. Apparently, the first was CC. I swear, but the end of this series I can bet Jean has mouth-kissed everyone but Warren).

Anyway. If you deconstextualize the scene, this page is gold:

This book is a hot mess.

Warren is perfectly characterized if you still see him as Claremont did in the pre-X-Factor days when Claremont was last writing him. Weird how he told Simonson he wished he made Archangel but then he completely ignores that incarnation in X-Men Forever. Like you said, he weirdly took whatever bits he liked from X-Factor Forever. Don't remember if Charlotte Jones showed up or not but I know Claremont liked her and used her in previous things.
Another thing he ignores from X-Factor is the Scott/Jean/baby Chris dynamic. Besides rebranding the baby Nathan instead of Chris, he ignores that Jean was more or less Nathan's mom, both biologically and emotionally, and gives her no relationship with Nathan. I even asked him why he did that and he didn't like my question, saying that Jean was not Nathan's mom and had no connection to him. All she was to Nathan was a lookalike of his mother and it would be harmful to him to have her in his life as a reminder of his mother.

Warren and his team of mutants get mentioned and pop up again in X-Men Forever 2.

The Kitty/Betsy thing was so weird and everyone called it out at the time. Technically Betsy had been living at the mansion a little while longer than before the Mutant Massacre started. There was enough time there for her and Kitty to get to know each other but I seriously doubt they did form any sort of friendship, let alone one as close as sisters. That was stupid and felt like it was thrown in just to acknowledge that Betsy was doing something outside of the X-Men, probably being part of Excalibur if Kitty claims to know her so well.

As someone who always wanted to see Warren and Jean together, even if ever so briefly, it really annoyed me that Claremont had Jean hooking up with just about everybody except for Jean. I guess Bobby was even more irrelevant for Claremont so he wasn't involved either. But yeah, I remember when Teen Jean and Teen Hank became a thing, my first thought was towards X-Men Forever and how this seems to be popular if it's coming up so much. I think another factor here is that a lot of writers establish that Ben Grimm used to be in love with Sue Storm (and Alicia was introduced as a doppelganger of Sue). I think some people slot Scott, Jean, and Hank into the Reed, Sue, and Ben slots and assume that Hank was the one secretly pining for Jean as Ben did for Sue. No idea why Warren/Jean gets ignored all the time, whether by CC or by the time-displaced versions because if Jean was going for anyone who wasn't Scott, it would have been Warren.

[From The Shadows]

This book is a hot mess.

Warren is perfectly characterized if you still see him as Claremont did in the pre-X-Factor days when Claremont was last writing him. Weird how he told Simonson he wished he made Archangel but then he completely ignores that incarnation in X-Men Forever. Like you said, he weirdly took whatever bits he liked from X-Factor Forever. Don't remember if Charlotte Jones showed up or not but I know Claremont liked her and used her in previous things.
Another thing he ignores from X-Factor is the Scott/Jean/baby Chris dynamic. Besides rebranding the baby Nathan instead of Chris, he ignores that Jean was more or less Nathan's mom, both biologically and emotionally, and gives her no relationship with Nathan. I even asked him why he did that and he didn't like my question, saying that Jean was not Nathan's mom and had no connection to him. All she was to Nathan was a lookalike of his mother and it would be harmful to him to have her in his life as a reminder of his mother.

Warren and his team of mutants get mentioned and pop up again in X-Men Forever 2.

The Kitty/Betsy thing was so weird and everyone called it out at the time. Technically Betsy had been living at the mansion a little while longer than before the Mutant Massacre started. There was enough time there for her and Kitty to get to know each other but I seriously doubt they did form any sort of friendship, let alone one as close as sisters. That was stupid and felt like it was thrown in just to acknowledge that Betsy was doing something outside of the X-Men, probably being part of Excalibur if Kitty claims to know her so well.

As someone who always wanted to see Warren and Jean together, even if ever so briefly, it really annoyed me that Claremont had Jean hooking up with just about everybody except for Jean. I guess Bobby was even more irrelevant for Claremont so he wasn't involved either. But yeah, I remember when Teen Jean and Teen Hank became a thing, my first thought was towards X-Men Forever and how this seems to be popular if it's coming up so much. I think another factor here is that a lot of writers establish that Ben Grimm used to be in love with Sue Storm (and Alicia was introduced as a doppelganger of Sue). I think some people slot Scott, Jean, and Hank into the Reed, Sue, and Ben slots and assume that Hank was the one secretly pining for Jean as Ben did for Sue. No idea why Warren/Jean gets ignored all the time, whether by CC or by the time-displaced versions because if Jean was going for anyone who wasn't Scott, it would have been Warren.

CC had actually more than implied Warren and Jean more than once. Once during the Byrne era with Warren saying "looking good red" and she kisses him back and she doesn't seem the least bit upset. It's weird on Warrens end because its right before Candy comes out. They were on the porch. I don't even know if she saw it. So that sort of implies he's still in love with Jean. And there may have been some attraction on Jeans part or she was just being nice. Then it was mentioned during the fight between Warren and Logan in Genosha by Hodge. So that's Warren, Beast, Scott and Wolverine. Thats a big list. Everyone seems to fall in love with Jean. But, then its Claremont. She even kisses Kurt in X-Men: The End. Lol. This is coming from a CC fan.

[whitecrown]

CC had actually more than implied Warren and Jean more than once. Once during the Byrne era with Warren saying "looking good red" and she kisses him back and she doesn't seem the least bit upset. It's weird on Warrens end because its right before Candy comes out. They were on the porch. I don't even know if she saw it. So that sort of implies he's still in love with Jean. And there may have been some attraction on Jeans part or she was just being nice. Then it was mentioned during the fight between Warren and Logan in Genosha by Hodge. So that's Warren, Beast, Scott and Wolverine. Thats a big list. Everyone seems to fall in love with Jean. But, then its Claremont. She even kisses Kurt in X-Men: The End. Lol. This is coming from a CC fan.

It's funny because people have really strong reactions to this moment and TDPS was one of the first comics I ever read as a kid and I thought nothing of this moment. It seemed perfectly normal rather than scandalous. Especially since this is set right after the 70s, and you have bohemian looking Candy who always seemed like a free spirit and liberated. Jean was very cosmopolitan and not bound by sexual norms. Jean and Warren were old friends greeting each other.

I can see why Candy minds though because she always had an inkling that she was Warren's consolation prize and he would have picked Jean over Candy. It's not a coincidence either that even when Candy debuted, it was right after Warren realized he had no chance with Jean and needed to move on. Meeting Candy again made him feel this was a sign by the universe.

And in Classic X-Men, Warren also takes umbrage with Logan flirting with Jean so it does seem like CC saw Warren as still being in love with Jean. But Simonson really dove into it more since she dealt with Warren and Jean on a more regular basis in her X-Factor where Candy does call out Warren and Jean. From what I vaguely remember from those early X-Factor issues, Warren was considering exposing Scott's marriage to Jean to take him out of the equation so he could have a chance with her. I don't fully remember but I think in Mutant Massacre too, Warren's thoughts were centered on Jean. It was either him entering the tunnels because he was worried about her or after he was injured, he kept saying her name, something like that.


Besides Warren, Hank, Logan, and Scott, there was also Xavier. He's mentioned a few times during the series that he was in love with Jean. Which made more sense in the early comics when he was meant to be in his mid-20s or so.


Kurt is another character who's rather flirty with every female including his adopted sister. He and Ororo always had a very flirtatious relationship plus him with Rachel and Betsy as well I think. Not to mention when there was the love triangle between him, Meggan, and Brian.

[From The Shadows]

It's funny because people have really strong reactions to this moment and TDPS was one of the first comics I ever read as a kid and I thought nothing of this moment. It seemed perfectly normal rather than scandalous. Especially since this is set right after the 70s, and you have bohemian looking Candy who always seemed like a free spirit and liberated. Jean was very cosmopolitan and not bound by sexual norms. Jean and Warren were old friends greeting each other.

I can see why Candy minds though because she always had an inkling that she was Warren's consolation prize and he would have picked Jean over Candy. It's not a coincidence either that even when Candy debuted, it was right after Warren realized he had no chance with Jean and needed to move on. Meeting Candy again made him feel this was a sign by the universe.

And in Classic X-Men, Warren also takes umbrage with Logan flirting with Jean so it does seem like CC saw Warren as still being in love with Jean. But Simonson really dove into it more since she dealt with Warren and Jean on a more regular basis in her X-Factor where Candy does call out Warren and Jean. From what I vaguely remember from those early X-Factor issues, Warren was considering exposing Scott's marriage to Jean to take him out of the equation so he could have a chance with her. I don't fully remember but I think in Mutant Massacre too, Warren's thoughts were centered on Jean. It was either him entering the tunnels because he was worried about her or after he was injured, he kept saying her name, something like that.


Besides Warren, Hank, Logan, and Scott, there was also Xavier. He's mentioned a few times during the series that he was in love with Jean. Which made more sense in the early comics when he was meant to be in his mid-20s or so.


Kurt is another character who's rather flirty with every female including his adopted sister. He and Ororo always had a very flirtatious relationship plus him with Rachel and Betsy as well I think. Not to mention when there was the love triangle between him, Meggan, and Brian.

Granted on Kurt. I didn't like him with Rachel, though which was started by CC. And CC was also the one who wrote the Jean and Kurt kiss. And flirtatious or not he was never shown to be that way with her in the past. Then she has her meet up with Logan in the same story. Jean was busy. I'm not hating on Jean. I'm just questioning some of CC's story choices. Kurt explained the Meggan thing away as it having to do with Megs powers and told him that Brian was her man in the solo Davis run. I'm actually glad Davis explained away Kurt/Meg. That triangle is up there with the Logan/Jean/Scott one for me as the most annoying. They occasionally try to bring back Meg/Kurt.

[From The Shadows]

Anyway... Warren.

[whitecrown]

Granted on Kurt. I didn't like him with Rachel, though which was started by CC. And CC was also the one who wrote the Jean and Kurt kiss. And flirtatious or not he was never shown to be that way with her in the past. Then she has her meet up with Logan in the same story. Jean was busy. I'm not hating on Jean. I'm just questioning some of CC's story choices. Kurt explained the Meggan thing away as it having to do with Megs powers and told him that Brian was her man in the solo Davis run. I'm actually glad Davis explained away Kurt/Meg. That triangle is up there with the Logan/Jean/Scott one for me as the most annoying. They occasionally try to bring back Meg/Kurt.

Kurt didn't have a whole lot of scenes with Jean during the ANAD era even though they were friends. Which might be why we haven't seen that flirtatious behavior between them in the past until X-Men: The End. But it's consistent with how he usually interacted with female teammates like Ororo, Betsy, and now Rachel.
CC always wrote his X-Men as having a lot of sexual tension and being very sexually charged in general. It's most noticeable in the Outback era but it's always been there and because it's Claremont, his women tended to have a lot of chemistry with each other too. John Byrne said he was critical of this when he first worked with Claremont and felt his Storm was obviously sapphic for Jean. How CC tried to make a point about how Storm had more affection for Jean than Cyclops did and how this was CC's way of pushing the envelope and challenging norms just for the heck of it to get a reaction out of people.

I didn't mind Meggan and Kurt actually. Brian was a really bad partner, constantly drunk and inept. I didn't like him at all at the start of Excalibur although I did like what tension he brought to the book because you expect a classic Captain America type and he isn't that at all. For once, the Captain isn't the leader since Kurt takes charge more often. The fact that Meggan's looks weren't her real appearance but what she chose to look like to satisfy Brian also seemed like an indicator that she'd be better off with Kurt since he's more accepting (although even with him, she tried to make herself look like him). I know Brian gets better later on but most of my memories of Excalibur are those early issues so he's really horrible then lol and it's easy to see why people thought Kurt was better for Meggan.

[whitecrown]

And bringing it back to Warren, I always felt the Angel/Nightcrawler dichotomy was very interesting. Surprisingly they never had a rivalry like Angel did with Wolverine. I think Kurt was too happy go lucky to have a rivalry with anyone. Angel's imagery and abilities make him work well as a foil to other characters like Jean as Phoenix with Angel being Death/Archangel/Apocalypse.

[From The Shadows]

Kurt didn't have a whole lot of scenes with Jean during the ANAD era even though they were friends. Which might be why we haven't seen that flirtatious behavior between them in the past until X-Men: The End. But it's consistent with how he usually interacted with female teammates like Ororo, Betsy, and now Rachel.
CC always wrote his X-Men as having a lot of sexual tension and being very sexually charged in general. It's most noticeable in the Outback era but it's always been there and because it's Claremont, his women tended to have a lot of chemistry with each other too. John Byrne said he was critical of this when he first worked with Claremont and felt his Storm was obviously sapphic for Jean. How CC tried to make a point about how Storm had more affection for Jean than Cyclops did and how this was CC's way of pushing the envelope and challenging norms just for the heck of it to get a reaction out of people.

I didn't mind Meggan and Kurt actually. Brian was a really bad partner, constantly drunk and inept. I didn't like him at all at the start of Excalibur although I did like what tension he brought to the book because you expect a classic Captain America type and he isn't that at all. For once, the Captain isn't the leader since Kurt takes charge more often. The fact that Meggan's looks weren't her real appearance but what she chose to look like to satisfy Brian also seemed like an indicator that she'd be better off with Kurt since he's more accepting (although even with him, she tried to make herself look like him). I know Brian gets better later on but most of my memories of Excalibur are those early issues so he's really horrible then lol and it's easy to see why people thought Kurt was better for Meggan.

I always saw Brian despite his treatment of Megan in the beginning when he was grieving about Betsy that he had a big heart deep down and truly loved Meggan. It also comes down to my feelings of Claremont always having to have someone steal someone's girl as everyone knows he wrote the Logan/Scott/Jean love triangle. I just saw it as immaturity on his part. Making him some cruel chump. Brian fans who read the Marvel UK comics said he was basically character assassinated under Claremont. It was obvious he didn't like him and that just pushed me more towards Brian then away from him. Kurt may or may not have been better for her but even under Claremont and Davis later she was very much in love with Brian and not Kurt. She was shown to be jealous many times but never with Kurt. Despite Kurt being my # 1 X-Man I don't think their relationship would have been based on love.

[From The Shadows]

Alex Ross Warren and its gorgeous.

[From The Shadows]

And bringing it back to Warren, I always felt the Angel/Nightcrawler dichotomy was very interesting. Surprisingly they never had a rivalry like Angel did with Wolverine. I think Kurt was too happy go lucky to have a rivalry with anyone. Angel's imagery and abilities make him work well as a foil to other characters like Jean as Phoenix with Angel being Death/Archangel/Apocalypse.

No Kurt and him never had a rivalry, and I am glad they didn't because that would have been to obvious: The demon vs. the angel. They have always been on friendly terms. Funnily enough Kurt returns the favor in 'Uncanny' number 300 and catches him that time.



Though I think they hated eachother in AoA and were rivals in the films.

[whitecrown]

I always saw Brian despite his treatment of Megan in the beginning when he was grieving about Betsy that he had a big heart deep down and truly loved Meggan. It also comes down to my feelings of Claremont always having to have someone steal someone's girl as everyone knows he wrote the Logan/Scott/Jean love triangle. I just saw it as immaturity on his part. Making him some cruel chump. Brian fans who read the Marvel UK comics said he was basically character assassinated under Claremont. It was obvious he didn't like him and that just pushed me more towards Brian then away from him. Kurt may or may not have been better for her but even under Claremont and Davis later she was very much in love with Brian and not Kurt. She was shown to be jealous many times but never with Kurt. Despite Kurt being my # 1 X-Man I don't think their relationship would have been based on love.

He did technically cheat on her with someone he thought was Courtney Ross. I've never read the Marvel UK stories though so that may also be a factor because my only knowledge of Brian is from how CC wrote him so I don't have any other base reference. Claremont also wrote him in the Marvel UK stories for a time so was Brian also character assassinated then or was it only when CC got back to him in Excalibur?

[whitecrown]

No Kurt and him never had a rivalry, and I am glad they didn't because that would have been to obvious: The demon vs. the angel. They have always been on friendly terms. Funnily enough Kurt returns the favor in 'Uncanny' number 300 and catches him that time.



Though I think they hated eachother in AoA and were rivals in the films.

I liked that Bobby of all characters was the one most xenophobic. Although not towards Kurt but towards Piotr for being a "commie."

Cool catch that Kurt returns the favor for Warren in UXM 300. I've never noticed that before.

[From The Shadows]

He did technically cheat on her with someone he thought was Courtney Ross. I've never read the Marvel UK stories though so that may also be a factor because my only knowledge of Brian is from how CC wrote him so I don't have any other base reference. Claremont also wrote him in the Marvel UK stories for a time so was Brian also character assassinated then or was it only when CC got back to him in Excalibur?

Yes, there was Courtney but if what was going on between her and Kurt was real then wouldn't that be both of them cheating? I haven't read many of Caps Marvel UK book but I'm going by his fans that the version in Excalibur was different from the one in his series. I think the ones I read was the Moore reprints. I really don't know why CC wrote him that way or if he wrote him that way in CB but it was obvious to me that he had it in for CB. I don't think Brian was ever comfortable with how attached Meggan was to him. He said his attraction to Courtney was because she was her own woman. He found Meggan too needy. Since he was shown to be jealous of what was going on between Kurt and Meggan that meant he at least felt something for her. It even came down to a knock out drag out fight between the two. Thats when AD explained Kurt/Meggan away.