Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Grinning Soul]

I'm crying. Thank you. ç_ç
This post. I want to print it and plaster it on the wall. PERFECTION.

(Well, I don't have a printer, but you get the feeling)

That's sweet, thanks for saying it. :)

---

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'm not sure if this would be of any use here, but I'll expand on why I want to scream when *writers* dismiss Warren.

The gist of it is that Warren is an awesome character and writers should have him in the cast of the flagship, but that's not coming from the simple desire of a fan. I think there are *fundamental* reasons to support the claim.

As a writer, I suppose you should take a step back (before you even start to think of the story) to understand your medium, your genre and your audience.

A writer coming to Marvel should keep in mind they're writing a narrative that :

(1) uses sequential art,
(2) in the superhero genre,
(3) for an audience that is loyal, invested and passionate enough to have followed those characters and stories for years, if not decades.

This understanding should come first. This is the guiding star for everything else. Whatever is not aligned with it, should not be considered, or should be altered enough not to clash against it.

What does that have to do with Warren?

Let's start with (1) the sequential art and the visual element of storytelling in comic books.

Simply put, wings look cool.

Moreover, they could be part of the narrative.

One thing that I'd love to see is writers and artists thinking of his wings as something that emotes and expresses mental states as much as the face and the body. This is a narrative resource that should be used to make one's storytelling richer, especially because you're dealing with a visual medium. Not using it is like having Spiral in the scene and having her extra arms just hanging along her body. Or Medusa's hair just lying on the floor.

"Wings are cool" should be a tenet written at the top of every script, but there's no need to point it out in the dialogue. Let the art do its thing. The reader will notice, even if unconsciously.

That's not everything wings have to contribute, though.

Warren's wings, especially the techno-organic ones, look *amazing* in combat (both at a distance and close-quarters), so extra cool points for the boy.

Lastly, the thematic and the visuals that come with an "angelic" character are a banquet for any writer. The contrast between divine and benevolent and corrupted and violent, for instance, works perfectly with any visual medium, especially if you explore lighting and angles to help you tell the story. Again, no need to point out, the reader will get the feeling even if they're not consciously aware of it.

So I guess you got the point when it comes to taking advantage of the fact the comics use sequential art, how it should factor into the writing, and how a character like Warren is perfect for it.

[NOTE: I'd love it if Warren had both his feather and his metal wings, exactly because I think the feather ones would look better for expression, and the metal ones look cooler for combat.]

Let's move on to the (2) superhero genre.

Anti-heroes are interesting characters and when you have one or some of them interacting with the heroes, the story often gets more interesting (think of Luke and Han, for instance).

But heroes are the core of the thing. We expect even the anti-heroes to behave in heroic ways when it counts the most. Those are the moments that make us *all* go, "yes!" as we read them.

Even the people who prefer morally grey characters will bring up those moments (and sometimes they don't even realize it).

Back to our boy, Warren is one of the most courageous and heroic Marvel characters. He comes from a background of extreme privilege but the first thing he does once his wings becomes strong enough for him to fly? He uses them to help people in need.

Xavier found him as a teenager and he didn't have to give him the speech ("think of how much good you can do with your gift"). It'd be understandable if Warren was afraid and overly focused on how being a "freak" set him apart from his peers (teenagers tend to give a lot of importance to being part of groups as a way to define their identity), but Warren was already a hero on his own. As a teenager, he knew that was who he was.

This is so freaking powerful. And again, if you have the chance to write this character in a *superhero* genre story and you don't take it... I don't even know how to finish this sentence.

So I'll move on to the last point. The (3) audience, and I want to link that to Warren's powers.

It hurts my brain when I read *writers* and *editors* talking about Warren having lame powers.

First of all, if that was ever true, it hasn't been true since the 80s.

Second of all, have these people heard of Batman? Or Daredevil?

Surely, powers are a part of the character and the genre, but what makes us invested are the stories and the characters in them. That's what keeps us coming back for more.

So what I'd tell those writers is this: "get your act together. Stop being wasteful by ignoring the rich histories of those characters. Understand that the majority of the fans who have been reading those stories love when you take continuity into consideration. You don't need to bring up past stories explicitly, but you need to take them into account when writing those characters. It's *easier* to make a character tridimensional, consistent and interesting when you come to write it after decades of stories. The work has been literally done for you. Stop seeing this as an anchor to limit you and understand it as a resource for you to tell better stories."

Back to Warren, he has a couple of epic stories in his past. This is an incredible resource on its own. It gives his character depth and so many avenues of his psyche to explore.

They should focus on *that* instead of how "lame" his powers are. They're not any lamer than Cyclops' (another favorite of mine) and just like the optic blasts, they *look cool*. It's not about power levels, damn it. Cool visuals (regardless of power levels) is the single most important thing for the *visual* medium that is comic books. That's half of the battle won before you even start imagining a combat scene.

All of that is to say that before a writer even comes up with a plot, having Warren in the cast already gives them a *lot* to work with and a lot to help them succeed in the medium, in the genre and with the audience.

So yeah... it's astounding to me that the X-Office did almost nothing with Warren during this entire Krakoa era, especially considering the amount of ongoing and limited series they published....

[Hakka84]

That's sweet, thanks for saying it.

---

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'm not sure if this would be of any use here, but I'll expand on why I want to scream when *writers* dismiss Warren.

The gist of it is that Warren is an awesome character and writers should have him in the cast of the flagship, but that's not coming from the simple desire of a fan. I think there are *fundamental* reasons to support the claim.

As a writer, I suppose you should take a step back (before you even start to think of the story) to understand your medium, your genre and your audience.

A writer coming to Marvel should keep in mind they're writing a narrative that :

(1) uses sequential art,
(2) in the superhero genre,
(3) for an audience that is loyal, invested and passionate enough to have followed those characters and stories for years, if not decades.

This understanding should come first. This is the guiding star for everything else. Whatever is not aligned with it, should not be considered, or should be altered enough not to clash against it.

What does that have to do with Warren?

Let's start with (1) the sequential art and the visual element of storytelling in comic books.

Simply put, wings look cool.

Moreover, they could be part of the narrative.

One thing that I'd love to see is writers and artists thinking of his wings as something that emotes and expresses mental states as much as the face and the body. This is a narrative resource that should be used to make one's storytelling richer, especially because you're dealing with a visual medium. Not using it is like having Spiral in the scene and having her extra arms just hanging along her body. Or Medusa's hair just lying on the floor.

"Wings are cool" should be a tenet written at the top of every script, but there's no need to point it out in the dialogue. Let the art do its thing. The reader will notice, even if unconsciously.

That's not everything wings have to contribute, though.

Warren's wings, especially the techno-organic ones, look *amazing* in combat (both at a distance and close-quarters), so extra cool points for the boy.

Lastly, the thematic and the visuals that come with an "angelic" character are a banquet for any writer. The contrast between divine and benevolent and corrupted and violent, for instance, works perfectly with any visual medium, especially if you explore lighting and angles to help you tell the story. Again, no need to point out, the reader will get the feeling even if they're not consciously aware of it.

So I guess you got the point when it comes to taking advantage of the fact the comics use sequential art, how it should factor into the writing, and how a character like Warren is perfect for it.

[NOTE: I'd love it if Warren had both his feather and his metal wings, exactly because I think the feather ones would look better for expression, and the metal ones look cooler for combat.]

Let's move on to the (2) superhero genre.

Anti-heroes are interesting characters and when you have one or some of them interacting with the heroes, the story often gets more interesting (think of Luke and Han, for instance).

But heroes are the core of the thing. We expect even the anti-heroes to behave in heroic ways when it counts the most. Those are the moments that make us *all* go, "yes!" as we read them.

Even the people who prefer morally grey characters will bring up those moments (and sometimes they don't even realize it).

Back to our boy, Warren is one of the most courageous and heroic Marvel characters. He comes from a background of extreme privilege but the first thing he does once his wings becomes strong enough for him to fly? He uses them to help people in need.

Xavier found him as a teenager and he didn't have to give him the speech ("think of how much good you can do with your gift"). It'd be understandable if Warren was afraid and overly focused on how being a "freak" set him apart from his peers (teenagers tend to give a lot of importance to being part of groups as a way to define their identity), but Warren was already a hero on his own. As a teenager, he knew that was who he was.

This is so freaking powerful. And again, if you have the chance to write this character in a *superhero* genre story and you don't take it... I don't even know how to finish this sentence.

So I'll move on to the last point. The (3) audience, and I want to link that to Warren's powers.

It hurts my brain when I read *writers* and *editors* talking about Warren having lame powers.

First of all, if that was ever true, it hasn't been true since the 80s.

Second of all, have these people heard of Batman? Or Daredevil?

Surely, powers are a part of the character and the genre, but what makes us invested are the stories and the characters in them. That's what keeps us coming back for more.

So what I'd tell those writers is this: "get your act together. Stop being wasteful by ignoring the rich histories of those characters. Understand that the majority of the fans who have been reading those stories love when you take continuity into consideration. You don't need to bring up past stories explicitly, but you need to take them into account when writing those characters. It's *easier* to make a character tridimensional, consistent and interesting when you come to write it after decades of stories. The work has been literally done for you. Stop seeing this as an anchor to limit you and understand it as a resource for you to tell better stories."

Back to Warren, he has a couple of epic stories in his past. This is an incredible resource on its own. It gives his character depth and so many avenues of his psyche to explore.

They should focus on *that* instead of how "lame" his powers are. They're not any lamer than Cyclops' (another favorite of mine) and just like the optic blasts, they *look cool*. It's not about power levels, damn it. Cool visuals (regardless of power levels) is the single most important thing for the *visual* medium that is comic books. That's half of the battle won before you even start imagining a combat scene.

All of that is to say that before a writer even comes up with a plot, having Warren in the cast already gives them a *lot* to work with and a lot to help them succeed in the medium, in the genre and with the audience.

So yeah... it's astounding to me that the X-Office did almost nothing with Warren during this entire Krakoa era, especially considering the amount of ongoing and limited series they published....

I have to repeat myself. And I feel bad that I cannot add anything, but you said everything and with better eloquence than mine. I might've tried to say this but in a more convoluted ways and split into dozens of post.
Woah. Yes.
Yes.

[mattsarchamp]

That's sweet, thanks for saying it.

---

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'm not sure if this would be of any use here, but I'll expand on why I want to scream when *writers* dismiss Warren.

The gist of it is that Warren is an awesome character and writers should have him in the cast of the flagship, but that's not coming from the simple desire of a fan. I think there are *fundamental* reasons to support the claim.

As a writer, I suppose you should take a step back (before you even start to think of the story) to understand your medium, your genre and your audience.

A writer coming to Marvel should keep in mind they're writing a narrative that :

(1) uses sequential art,
(2) in the superhero genre,
(3) for an audience that is loyal, invested and passionate enough to have followed those characters and stories for years, if not decades.

This understanding should come first. This is the guiding star for everything else. Whatever is not aligned with it, should not be considered, or should be altered enough not to clash against it.

What does that have to do with Warren?

Let's start with (1) the sequential art and the visual element of storytelling in comic books.

Simply put, wings look cool.

Moreover, they could be part of the narrative.

One thing that I'd love to see is writers and artists thinking of his wings as something that emotes and expresses mental states as much as the face and the body. This is a narrative resource that should be used to make one's storytelling richer, especially because you're dealing with a visual medium. Not using it is like having Spiral in the scene and having her extra arms just hanging along her body. Or Medusa's hair just lying on the floor.

"Wings are cool" should be a tenet written at the top of every script, but there's no need to point it out in the dialogue. Let the art do its thing. The reader will notice, even if unconsciously.

That's not everything wings have to contribute, though.

Warren's wings, especially the techno-organic ones, look *amazing* in combat (both at a distance and close-quarters), so extra cool points for the boy.

Lastly, the thematic and the visuals that come with an "angelic" character are a banquet for any writer. The contrast between divine and benevolent and corrupted and violent, for instance, works perfectly with any visual medium, especially if you explore lighting and angles to help you tell the story. Again, no need to point out, the reader will get the feeling even if they're not consciously aware of it.

So I guess you got the point when it comes to taking advantage of the fact the comics use sequential art, how it should factor into the writing, and how a character like Warren is perfect for it.

[NOTE: I'd love it if Warren had both his feather and his metal wings, exactly because I think the feather ones would look better for expression, and the metal ones look cooler for combat.]

Let's move on to the (2) superhero genre.

Anti-heroes are interesting characters and when you have one or some of them interacting with the heroes, the story often gets more interesting (think of Luke and Han, for instance).

But heroes are the core of the thing. We expect even the anti-heroes to behave in heroic ways when it counts the most. Those are the moments that make us *all* go, "yes!" as we read them.

Even the people who prefer morally grey characters will bring up those moments (and sometimes they don't even realize it).

Back to our boy, Warren is one of the most courageous and heroic Marvel characters. He comes from a background of extreme privilege but the first thing he does once his wings becomes strong enough for him to fly? He uses them to help people in need.

Xavier found him as a teenager and he didn't have to give him the speech ("think of how much good you can do with your gift"). It'd be understandable if Warren was afraid and overly focused on how being a "freak" set him apart from his peers (teenagers tend to give a lot of importance to being part of groups as a way to define their identity), but Warren was already a hero on his own. As a teenager, he knew that was who he was.

This is so freaking powerful. And again, if you have the chance to write this character in a *superhero* genre story and you don't take it... I don't even know how to finish this sentence.

So I'll move on to the last point. The (3) audience, and I want to link that to Warren's powers.

It hurts my brain when I read *writers* and *editors* talking about Warren having lame powers.

First of all, if that was ever true, it hasn't been true since the 80s.

Second of all, have these people heard of Batman? Or Daredevil?

Surely, powers are a part of the character and the genre, but what makes us invested are the stories and the characters in them. That's what keeps us coming back for more.

So what I'd tell those writers is this: "get your act together. Stop being wasteful by ignoring the rich histories of those characters. Understand that the majority of the fans who have been reading those stories love when you take continuity into consideration. You don't need to bring up past stories explicitly, but you need to take them into account when writing those characters. It's *easier* to make a character tridimensional, consistent and interesting when you come to write it after decades of stories. The work has been literally done for you. Stop seeing this as an anchor to limit you and understand it as a resource for you to tell better stories."

Back to Warren, he has a couple of epic stories in his past. This is an incredible resource on its own. It gives his character depth and so many avenues of his psyche to explore.

They should focus on *that* instead of how "lame" his powers are. They're not any lamer than Cyclops' (another favorite of mine) and just like the optic blasts, they *look cool*. It's not about power levels, damn it. Cool visuals (regardless of power levels) is the single most important thing for the *visual* medium that is comic books. That's half of the battle won before you even start imagining a combat scene.

All of that is to say that before a writer even comes up with a plot, having Warren in the cast already gives them a *lot* to work with and a lot to help them succeed in the medium, in the genre and with the audience.

So yeah... it's astounding to me that the X-Office did almost nothing with Warren during this entire Krakoa era, especially considering the amount of ongoing and limited series they published....

Bravo, man! This is exactly how I feel for Warren when it comes to this era. The writers tends to just neglect most of his characterizations from the past and how deep his story actually is.

[Thievery]

You implying the resurrected would keep a sparkle/splinter of the Phoenix?
I'm... intrigued.
Remember, I'm obsessed by ascended!Archangel during DAS who stands against AoA!Jean and her Phoenix, and the Phoenix almost sides with him.

I wasn't really thinking about the resurrected getting to keep a spark of the phoenix. I was thinking more along the lines of a mass resurrection causing either mental instability in either Jean or all of the characters that she would resurrect. But, yeah, having a bunch of characters who have just a very small fraction of the Phoenix running around would definitely cause problems and could have some interesting consequences that would be fun to read about.

That's sweet, thanks for saying it.

---

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'm not sure if this would be of any use here, but I'll expand on why I want to scream when *writers* dismiss Warren.

The gist of it is that Warren is an awesome character and writers should have him in the cast of the flagship, but that's not coming from the simple desire of a fan. I think there are *fundamental* reasons to support the claim.

As a writer, I suppose you should take a step back (before you even start to think of the story) to understand your medium, your genre and your audience.

A writer coming to Marvel should keep in mind they're writing a narrative that :

(1) uses sequential art,
(2) in the superhero genre,
(3) for an audience that is loyal, invested and passionate enough to have followed those characters and stories for years, if not decades.

This understanding should come first. This is the guiding star for everything else. Whatever is not aligned with it, should not be considered, or should be altered enough not to clash against it.

What does that have to do with Warren?

Let's start with (1) the sequential art and the visual element of storytelling in comic books.

Simply put, wings look cool.

Moreover, they could be part of the narrative.

One thing that I'd love to see is writers and artists thinking of his wings as something that emotes and expresses mental states as much as the face and the body. This is a narrative resource that should be used to make one's storytelling richer, especially because you're dealing with a visual medium. Not using it is like having Spiral in the scene and having her extra arms just hanging along her body. Or Medusa's hair just lying on the floor.

"Wings are cool" should be a tenet written at the top of every script, but there's no need to point it out in the dialogue. Let the art do its thing. The reader will notice, even if unconsciously.

That's not everything wings have to contribute, though.

Warren's wings, especially the techno-organic ones, look *amazing* in combat (both at a distance and close-quarters), so extra cool points for the boy.

Lastly, the thematic and the visuals that come with an "angelic" character are a banquet for any writer. The contrast between divine and benevolent and corrupted and violent, for instance, works perfectly with any visual medium, especially if you explore lighting and angles to help you tell the story. Again, no need to point out, the reader will get the feeling even if they're not consciously aware of it.

So I guess you got the point when it comes to taking advantage of the fact the comics use sequential art, how it should factor into the writing, and how a character like Warren is perfect for it.

[NOTE: I'd love it if Warren had both his feather and his metal wings, exactly because I think the feather ones would look better for expression, and the metal ones look cooler for combat.]

Let's move on to the (2) superhero genre.

Anti-heroes are interesting characters and when you have one or some of them interacting with the heroes, the story often gets more interesting (think of Luke and Han, for instance).

But heroes are the core of the thing. We expect even the anti-heroes to behave in heroic ways when it counts the most. Those are the moments that make us *all* go, "yes!" as we read them.

Even the people who prefer morally grey characters will bring up those moments (and sometimes they don't even realize it).

Back to our boy, Warren is one of the most courageous and heroic Marvel characters. He comes from a background of extreme privilege but the first thing he does once his wings becomes strong enough for him to fly? He uses them to help people in need.

Xavier found him as a teenager and he didn't have to give him the speech ("think of how much good you can do with your gift"). It'd be understandable if Warren was afraid and overly focused on how being a "freak" set him apart from his peers (teenagers tend to give a lot of importance to being part of groups as a way to define their identity), but Warren was already a hero on his own. As a teenager, he knew that was who he was.

This is so freaking powerful. And again, if you have the chance to write this character in a *superhero* genre story and you don't take it... I don't even know how to finish this sentence.

So I'll move on to the last point. The (3) audience, and I want to link that to Warren's powers.

It hurts my brain when I read *writers* and *editors* talking about Warren having lame powers.

First of all, if that was ever true, it hasn't been true since the 80s.

Second of all, have these people heard of Batman? Or Daredevil?

Surely, powers are a part of the character and the genre, but what makes us invested are the stories and the characters in them. That's what keeps us coming back for more.

So what I'd tell those writers is this: "get your act together. Stop being wasteful by ignoring the rich histories of those characters. Understand that the majority of the fans who have been reading those stories love when you take continuity into consideration. You don't need to bring up past stories explicitly, but you need to take them into account when writing those characters. It's *easier* to make a character tridimensional, consistent and interesting when you come to write it after decades of stories. The work has been literally done for you. Stop seeing this as an anchor to limit you and understand it as a resource for you to tell better stories."

Back to Warren, he has a couple of epic stories in his past. This is an incredible resource on its own. It gives his character depth and so many avenues of his psyche to explore.

They should focus on *that* instead of how "lame" his powers are. They're not any lamer than Cyclops' (another favorite of mine) and just like the optic blasts, they *look cool*. It's not about power levels, damn it. Cool visuals (regardless of power levels) is the single most important thing for the *visual* medium that is comic books. That's half of the battle won before you even start imagining a combat scene.

All of that is to say that before a writer even comes up with a plot, having Warren in the cast already gives them a *lot* to work with and a lot to help them succeed in the medium, in the genre and with the audience.

So yeah... it's astounding to me that the X-Office did almost nothing with Warren during this entire Krakoa era, especially considering the amount of ongoing and limited series they published....

Your great.


You just spelled out what most of Archangel's fans have been complaining about on this forum for years. Good job of explaining it better than most of us have. Thanks

I don't think the Batman or Daredevil comparisons would hold up just because Warren has never been shown as being as good at hand to hand combat as those two. You would probably need to do some stories that show Angel putting in the work to make himself a better fighter. But that shouldn't actually be all that hard to do.

You are right about Warren having epic stories in the past. There is the original story involving Archangel becoming a Horseman of Apocalypse. There is Dark Angel Saga. There is his feud with Cameron Hodge witch led to the death of Candy Southern. The Crimson Dawn has mostly been forgotten about, but I think that was an underrated story and I would like to see that appear again. Plus there is the Apocalypse Twins. I am constantly complaining about the fact that Warren has never really encountered his children or interacted with them or their mother.

[Grinning Soul]

I have to repeat myself. And I feel bad that I cannot add anything, but you said everything and with better eloquence than mine. I might've tried to say this but in a more convoluted ways and split into dozens of post.
Woah. Yes.
Yes.

Bravo, man! This is exactly how I feel for Warren when it comes to this era. The writers tends to just neglect most of his characterizations from the past and how deep his story actually is.

Your great.


You just spelled out what most of Archangel's fans have been complaining about on this forum for years. Good job of explaining it better than most of us have. Thanks

Thanks, guys.

I thought most fans would agree with that, which is why I haven't written in this thread much. I don't feel I have much to contribute.

At the same time, we never know who is reading, right? Perhaps a new reader can learn how awesome he is through us, considering the lack of new material.

Worth the shot, I guess. :)

I don't think the Batman or Daredevil comparisons would hold up just because Warren has never been shown as being as good at hand to hand combat as those two. You would probably need to do some stories that show Angel putting in the work to make himself a better fighter. But that shouldn't actually be all that hard to do.

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't clear.

The comparison was more about power levels than fighting skills. DD is a character with an interesting powerset, but he's far from being a powerhouse. Batman is powerless (even if one could argue his intellect is akin to a super power, technically, it isn't one).

That's my point: the fact that those characters can be successful with their "lame" powersets (or lack of it), proves that power levels are not *that* important.

So to use that excuse to keep Warren out of the books? That's just BS.

And to connect that to my other point, I'd argue that, since superheros are supposed to be an action-oriented visual medium, the visual aspects of a character (which includes their power) are more important than their power level.

And like I said, wings look cool. :)

You are right about Warren having epic stories in the past. There is the original story involving Archangel becoming a Horseman of Apocalypse. There is Dark Angel Saga. There is his feud with Cameron Hodge witch led to the death of Candy Southern. The Crimson Dawn has mostly been forgotten about, but I think that was an underrated story and I would like to see that appear again. Plus there is the Apocalypse Twins. I am constantly complaining about the fact that Warren has never really encountered his children or interacted with them or their mother.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those characters and I'd prefer if they had never been created, but they have.

Personally, I wouldn't want them to appear again, but Warren's fathered them. They'll always be a part of his life. It'd be nice to have a couple of panels showing how he feels about it.

Again, there's so much a writer can create because that story has been written. How responsible does he feel? Does he hate that he became a father because of the influence of the Death Seed/Ascension? Does he feel it wasn't really his choice? That he wasn't really himself? Does this change the way he sees fatherhood? Does it make him afraid of it?

You get to Krakoa, then, right? He died and was resurrected right away. For someone who has been physically transformed so many times, did it have an effect on his psyche? Did it make him feel more at ease because in a way, his DNA was reset? Did it make him feel more worried because mutant resurrection was never well-understood and he has a past of being altered and losing himself in the process?

Obviously, when you're dealing with a team book, you can't expect that writers will go very deep into those issues right away.

But that's exactly why I said I believe in the hands of a good writer, he could have a solo mini or an ongoing. There's a *lot* of opportunity for inner dialogue with a character like Warren.

[Hakka84]

Thanks, guys.

I thought most fans would agree with that, which is why I haven't written in this thread much. I don't feel I have much to contribute.

At the same time, we never know who is reading, right? Perhaps a new reader can learn how awesome he is through us, considering the lack of new material.

Worth the shot, I guess.

Lacking new material to comment, we're doomed to talk about the same things over and over again. But once in a while a new idea or topic or analysis might pop out of while talking about the same trite topic... so, why not?

The comparison was more about power levels than fighting skills. DD is a character with an interesting powerset, but he's far from being a powerhouse. Batman is powerless (even if one could argue his intellect is akin to a super power, technically, it isn't one).

That's my point: the fact that those characters can be successful with their "lame" powersets (or lack of it), proves that power levels are not *that* important.

So to use that excuse to keep Warren out of the books? That's just BS.

Quoted for truth.
I fear the whole "lame power = useless" is a X-Corner flaw. You don't see the Avengers-corner get rid of Hawkeye, despite being literally an archer in a group that usually featured an Asgardian god or has features a reality-warping witch. And even Steve Rogers, with all respect, is "just" very skilled and trained fighter with super-strenght+physical endurance. He's high-profile not because of his powers but what his personality, his ethics, his rich past and his being a son of another time can bring to the story.
In the X-Corner, on the other hands, they're an over-abundance of uber-powered characters, and the "lame powerset" ones naturally fall on the sideline, because why have a guy-with-flight in the team, when you can have a elemental goddess or an powerful (sexy and rich) telepath or a guy who can mimic the powers of anyone around him instead? If Scott hadn't been established as a staple of the X-Men and wasn't the guy many authors see themselves into, he would've been sidelined as well ("lame eye lasers").

Personally, I wouldn't want them to appear again, but Warren's fathered them. They'll always be a part of his life. It'd be nice to have a couple of panels showing how he feels about it.
Again, there's so much a writer can create because that story has been written. How responsible does he feel? Does he hate that he became a father because of the influence of the Death Seed/Ascension? Does he feel it wasn't really his choice? That he wasn't really himself? Does this change the way he sees fatherhood? Does it make him afraid of it?

Agree to disagree on the bolded. Agreeing with all the rest.
You likely read it, but me and Thievery in the last pages of the 2023 thread were exchanging opinion on the missed chance to have the Twins be resurrected in Krakoa. Not for the sake to get them back, but for the potential earthquake they would've been for Warren. Any idea? Ramble with us!

You get to Krakoa, then, right? He died and was resurrected right away. For someone who has been physically transformed so many times, did it have an effect on his psyche? Did it make him feel more at ease because in a way, his DNA was reset? Did it make him feel more worried because mutant resurrection was never well-understood and he has a past of being altered and losing himself in the process?

How does it feel that, despite being born again/cloned, he still has the Archangel personality - how deep Apocalypse's tainting is rooted in him that even going through resurrection can't free him from that.

On the bold: rumblings I made for a fanfiction (behind spoilers for those not interested)
spoilers:

I've been playing with either original or canon AUs. There's this one from X-Men: Millennial Visions. Times were different in the 2000s, canon says that the changed X-Men learn to live with their new body. Nowadays, we know that they would likely start the transitioning to return to their original gender. And, after some pondering, I understood that Warren wouldn't. He's been so scared and traumatized by medical procedures and manipulations to his body that I don't think he'd be able to psychologically face the transitioning procedure - from the drugs to the actual surgical side.

end of spoilers

Also. Any character, to have the chance to stand "solo", needs a rouge gallery. And Warren indeed has two.
First there's Cameron Hodge and his Right. With the way Cameron, for his first 10 years of existence (X-Factor + Genosha), was written as obsessed with Warren, it's odd that recent returns of Hodge didn't acknowledge this. Going back to X-Force, I don't remember if a shared past was even mentioned (the way writers used to use to inform new readers) or if Warren was epecially troubled upon seeing Cameron's name on X-Force's hit list. Or even if they faced each other (Cameron was dealt with during Messiah War, and by the New Mutants).
I seem to recall Cameron has recently (=Krakoa-era) returned. Again in the New Mutants. Warren never involved.
(Cameron is by now part of Karma's rogue galleries as well, if I recall right he's the reason why she lost her leg - still, Cameron was obsessed with ruining Warren, and a psychopath like him should never grow out of his obsession for their first victim.
And then Poccy. Poccy was created to be X-Factor's enemy, and later became Cable's very reason to fight.
But originally he was related to Warren. So Apocalypse should be co-shared between Cable and Warren. With the recent changes that were made to Apocalypse, I'm not much sure how Poccy can still fit as main villain to either Warren or Nathan, but you get what I mean.

The Crimson Dawn has mostly been forgotten about, but I think that was an underrated story and I would like to see that appear again. Plus there is the Apocalypse Twins. I am constantly complaining about the fact that Warren has never really encountered his children or interacted with them or their mother.

I might be biased because the whole Warren/Betsy and Larocca, but Crimson Dawn is a jewel that should be un-forgotten. It ended establishing that Warren gave up a portion of his life to save Betsy's soul. Might be my romantic side but this is a huge concept, that should lead to a soulbound or something important. Not brushed aside as the whole Crimson Dawn was.
(it can be explained that Jamie, upon bringing back Elizabeth, removed the CD link, but we still don't know why Betsy lost the CD. Still, Warren's sacrifice wasn't erased by Betsy loosing the CD link)

On the argument of the Apocalypse's twins, you're preaching to the choir. If only a fan writer was interested in tackling Warren's life, they would have much material to expand upon. As Grinning Soul said, Warren could totally hold if not an ongoing at least a miniseries made of 5-issues archs to be renewed if sales sustained it. Easily.
I've been reading fairly old titles for my fanfic needs, Psylocke's New Exiles, Dazzler's Exiles and skimmed through Dazzler's/Juggernauth's Excalibur/X-Men: Die by the sword. And I've been marvelled at the panel time given to characters to analyse and/or talk about their feelings. I'm not speaking about a couple of thoughts baloons or narrator boxes. But the character really speaking. I can't bring a specific example ATM, but during the last arch of Excalibur, we get to see Dazzler talking about her deaths and how she's coping with Juggy, and even the Shadow X-Men (who are the villains) are given "psychological" panel time.

Said this. A whole miniserie could stand only on Warren coming into terms with him being Angel and Archangel and what it implies, including dark instincts and the fact he's been tainted and he cannot return to the pre-Arcangel self anymore, for as much as he wishes to (the only time he did it didn't go well - see, memory!less). Not to mention you could get another arch only on him discovering about Dark Angel Saga. Another only for the theme of the Twins. And technically there should also be his experience with the Black Vortex from his past self.
And this is just him coping with his past - no need for "new" ideas at all. Amazing, isn't it?
I'm sure there are others of characters with such a rich, unexplored (or not greatly explored) past history, but not that many. IMHO.

[K7P5V]

You are right about Warren having epic stories in the past. There is the original story involving Archangel becoming a Horseman of Apocalypse. There is Dark Angel Saga. There is his feud with Cameron Hodge witch led to the death of Candy Southern. The Crimson Dawn has mostly been forgotten about, but I think that was an underrated story and I would like to see that appear again. Plus there is the Apocalypse Twins. I am constantly complaining about the fact that Warren has never really encountered his children or interacted with them or their mother.

Yeah! I know he had to share with others during X-Cutioner's Song, but I'll always love the EPIC scene between Warren & Apoccy (XD)

[Grinning Soul]

Lacking new material to comment, we're doomed to talk about the same things over and over again. But once in a while a new idea or topic or analysis might pop out of while talking about the same trite topic... so, why not? ;)

I understand. Fans enjoy talking about their favorites. :)

Quoted for truth.
I fear the whole "lame power = useless" is a X-Corner flaw. You don't see the Avengers-corner get rid of Hawkeye, despite being literally an archer in a group that usually featured an Asgardian god or has features a reality-warping witch. And even Steve Rogers, with all respect, is "just" very skilled and trained fighter with super-strenght+physical endurance. He's high-profile not because of his powers but what his personality, his ethics, his rich past and his being a son of another time can bring to the story.

Yep.

And it’s not just Hawkeye or Cap. Black Widow has been a part of the group (even leading it) forever. And there’s often a character in the cast who isn’t anywhere near the power levels of Thor.

In the X-Corner, on the other hands, they're an over-abundance of uber-powered characters, and the "lame powerset" ones naturally fall on the sideline, because why have a guy-with-flight in the team, when you can have a elemental goddess or an powerful (sexy and rich) telepath or a guy who can mimic the powers of anyone around him instead? If Scott hadn't been established as a staple of the X-Men and wasn't the guy many authors see themselves into, he would've been sidelined as well ("lame eye lasers").

Yes. But that just proves the point, right?

It’s mostly about the character’s personality.

Powers make a difference, sure, but just like the rest of the character design, it’s about how cool they look.

Wolverine’s powers look cool, because the design of his claws are awesome and artists get to draw his skin melting off his bones while he’s still fighting.

Warren’s metal wings look cool too. There are so many cool poses you can draw... His shielding himself or someone else with his wings. The classic combo shield-then-projecting-feathers. He can use them as a razor-sharp, long range blade. Or with a similar swinging motion, throw feathers. And that’s not even counting the flying poses.

Swing weapons look great in comics because it’s easy to depict their trajectory and have the character posed at the end of the swing.

Some of those poses would apply or could be modified for his wings:



Now only Warren has two of those long, swinging weapons, he has all the flying poses, all the the combat poses you can draw because of fast flight *and* the projectile poses that look different and cool.

Heck, you could even have him hold feathers like knives and use the wings more as shields in confined spaces.

He could use those knife-feathers both in his close-quarters combat (as an extra angle/short range weapon). He could even throw them from his hands in certain occasions.

Really. There’s so much you can do with him. And *everything* would look cool.

Agree to disagree on the bolded.

I’m totally fine with it. People have different tastes. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Agreeing with all the rest.
You likely read it, but me and Thievery in the last pages of the 2023 thread were exchanging opinion on the missed chance to have the Twins be resurrected in Krakoa. Not for the sake to get them back, but for the potential earthquake they would've been for Warren. Any idea? Ramble with us!

I think the missed chance came even before they would be resurrected.

So, Krakoa had this huge line of mutants to be resurrected, right? They were *really* not in a hurry to bring back the potentially dangerous ones, so I don’t think Warren would have been surprised with both of them showing up and saying, “Hi, dad.”

I think it’s more likely he would have push for it.

Now, I *love* the O5 and their friendships. I particularly love Jean and Warren’s friendship. So you can imagine I’d *love* if they talked about it because she had a similar dilemma.

While the rest of her family (parents, sister, uncles and aunts) were human, her niece and nephew were mutants.

Jean’s fans were also very interested in the resurrection of those kids. Jean being in the QC at first would make it possible for her to push for their resurrection. So why hasn’t her?

Sure, you could say she was too much of a good girl to abuse her power. But my headcanon is that she didn’t do it for other reasons.

So imagine Warren comes to her to talk about that. He explains he needs to believe nurture is stronger than nature. That those kids could be good if given a better upbringing.

Then she tells him something like this: “Do you know what is the most frustrating part of all my deaths, Blondie?”
“You’re begging me to make a joke about Scott here, but I’m not in the mood.”
“Believe it or not, I’m never in the mood for those jokes. Thanks for not being Bobby.”
“What’s the most frustrating part?”
“Despite my perfect memory, I don’t retain all the information I learn while… well, not here. That means I don’t know much about the afterlife. But I know -- for certain -- that we don’t disappear completely. Our souls remain. So I like to think Gailyn and Joey are with Sara. And she is with our parents. Since I can’t bring back my whole family… do I have the right to separate them? Is it for me to choose?”
“But Jean… Eimin and Uriel have no one.”

And you cut the scene right there, with them sharing a sad and anguished look.

[NOTE: That’s considering Ichisumi is alive.]

So, on a second issue you can explore his inner thoughts and considerations of nature and nurture. You can connect that with his own experience and what I mention on the previous post about his feelings about mutant resurrection.

How much of twins’ psyche was actually scanned by cerebro? What if they were resurrected as babies, instead, and given the chance the grow up without all that trauma?

Obviously, there would be some practical considerations there (one of the reasons why I wouldn’t want the twins back), but I’m focusing on what Warren would and *should* be considering in-story.

So, on the third issue, maybe you show the rest of the conversation with Jean.

--
If Warren would decide not to push for their resurrection:

“So I like to think Gailyn and Joey are with Sara. And she is with our parents. Since I can’t bring back my whole family… do I have the right to separate them? Is it for me to choose?”
“But Jean… Eimin and Uriel have no one.”
“They have each other, Warren. Who knows? They might even be with your ancestors… They were Worthingtons, after all. Besides, wherever they are, they are rid of all the forces that corrupted them. Is it so impossible for you, Angel, to imagine they might be freer? Happier?”


If Warren would decide to push for their resurrection:

“So I like to think Gailyn and Joey are with Sara. And she is with our parents. Since I can’t bring back my whole family… do I have the right to separate them? Is it for me to choose?”
“But Jean… Eimin and Uriel have no one.”
“They have each other. They’ll have you, one day.”
“Will they? The protocols have changed everything, Jean. Will we be allowed to die? Or stay dead? Next time Krakoa is attacked -- if the situation is dire enough -- are you sure someone will not decide to bring us back against our will?”
“I… I don’t know.”
“When will we get to truly retire, Jean? The five of us? If not for our experience, for the symbols we represent? They might have our original uniforms ready for us.”
“I hope it’s a replica, though. Not the actual original uniform.”
“Not sure if you’d still fit?”
“You’re a brave man for asking that!”
They laugh.
Jean: “*Sigh*. Given my power and personal history, I need to believe in the best of people as much as I need to breathe. I need to believe we will be allowed to retire. But I also need to believe your children can be different if they’re given the chance. Especially if they get to be around your influence this time around. If you decide to do it, I’ll put my current weight behind your request with the Quiet Council.”

--

No matter the choice, there is so much the writers could have done. *Even* if they wouldn’t decide to bring back the twins. Warren’s decision not to try to bring them back could still be a source of internal conflict for him. Or maybe it could be a motivation to try to become more hopeful, despite everything.

The point is writers used to be able to balance those more intimate moments and tough decisions with the action.

While the action is imperative for the genre, those moments is what hook us for life.

Super powers are cool because we don’t have them, but those moments of human struggle, failure and triumph are what makes us relate to the stories.

Characters like Warren provide lots of opportunities for that.

How does it feel that, despite being born again/cloned, he still has the Archangel personality - how deep Apocalypse's tainting is rooted in him that even going through resurrection can't free him from that.

Was it even the Archangel personality? That would be another possible secondary plot. If Warren wouldn’t trust Charles, he’s still be best friends with the most powerful telepath in the island.

Did I mention I really love their friendship? :)

On the bold: rumblings I made for a fanfiction (behind spoilers for those not interested)
spoilers:

I've been playing with either original or canon AUs. There's this one from X-Men: Millennial Visions. Times were different in the 2000s, canon says that the changed X-Men learn to live with their new body. Nowadays, we know that they would likely start the transitioning to return to their original gender. And, after some pondering, I understood that Warren wouldn't. He's been so scared and traumatized by medical procedures and manipulations to his body that I don't think he'd be able to psychologically face the transitioning procedure - from the drugs to the actual surgical side.

end of spoilers

I’m going to hide this in a spoil tag too, not to give away what’s in yours, but it’s not really a spoiler.

spoilers:

Since we’re talking about comic books, we’d have to consider different ways in which they could reverse their sexes back to their original. However, if the only option was what is available to us in the real world, I’d tend to agree with you. It would probably be way more traumatic for him than learning to live with his new body.

end of spoilers

Also. Any character, to have the chance to stand "solo", needs a rouge gallery.

I agree, but I’d argue you don’t need a rogue gallery from the get-go or no solo character would have made it, right?

Besides, you can use other villains who are already in the comics. The Kingpin was originally a Spidey baddie, but for decades he was known as DD’s main villain.

And Warren indeed has two.
First there's Cameron Hodge and his Right. With the way Cameron, for his first 10 years of existence (X-Factor + Genosha), was written as obsessed with Warren, it's odd that recent returns of Hodge didn't acknowledge this. Going back to X-Force, I don't remember if a shared past was even mentioned (the way writers used to use to inform new readers) or if Warren was epecially troubled upon seeing Cameron's name on X-Force's hit list. Or even if they faced each other (Cameron was dealt with during Messiah War, and by the New Mutants).
I seem to recall Cameron has recently (=Krakoa-era) returned. Again in the New Mutants. Warren never involved.
(Cameron is by now part of Karma's rogue galleries as well, if I recall right he's the reason why she lost her leg - still, Cameron was obsessed with ruining Warren, and a psychopath like him should never grow out of his obsession for their first victim.
And then Poccy. Poccy was created to be X-Factor's enemy, and later became Cable's very reason to fight.
But originally he was related to Warren. So Apocalypse should be co-shared between Cable and Warren. With the recent changes that were made to Apocalypse, I'm not much sure how Poccy can still fit as main villain to either Warren or Nathan, but you get what I mean.

Hickman ignored so much of Apocalypse’s lore that I’m not sure how they’d reverse him, but let’s say they could, that’s indeed two villains, which is great to start with.

One of the interesting things about solo books, though, is that they offer the perfect space to launch other characters. And not only villains.

In a comic with a big cast, you often don’t have space to create compelling characters from scratch (which is the case of many of those Krakoa books -- I resent the time they give those new villains).

But take DD’s book for instance. It launched Ben Urich, Elektra, Echo, Bullseye, The Purple Man, Mister Fear…

Warren’s could launch cool characters too. :)

[Thievery]

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't clear.

The comparison was more about power levels than fighting skills. DD is a character with an interesting powerset, but he's far from being a powerhouse. Batman is powerless (even if one could argue his intellect is akin to a super power, technically, it isn't one).

That's my point: the fact that those characters can be successful with their "lame" powersets (or lack of it), proves that power levels are not *that* important.

So to use that excuse to keep Warren out of the books? That's just BS.

And to connect that to my other point, I'd argue that, since superheros are supposed to be an action-oriented visual medium, the visual aspects of a character (which includes their power) are more important than their power level.



Exactly.

I'm not a fan of those characters and I'd prefer if they had never been created, but they have.

Personally, I wouldn't want them to appear again, but Warren's fathered them. They'll always be a part of his life. It'd be nice to have a couple of panels showing how he feels about it.

Again, there's so much a writer can create because that story has been written. How responsible does he feel? Does he hate that he became a father because of the influence of the Death Seed/Ascension? Does he feel it wasn't really his choice? That he wasn't really himself? Does this change the way he sees fatherhood? Does it make him afraid of it?

You get to Krakoa, then, right? He died and was resurrected right away. For someone who has been physically transformed so many times, did it have an effect on his psyche? Did it make him feel more at ease because in a way, his DNA was reset? Did it make him feel more worried because mutant resurrection was never well-understood and he has a past of being altered and losing himself in the process?

Obviously, when you're dealing with a team book, you can't expect that writers will go very deep into those issues right away.

But that's exactly why I said I believe in the hands of a good writer, he could have a solo mini or an ongoing. There's a *lot* of opportunity for inner dialogue with a character like Warren.

I really missed a lot in this thread while people were posting and have some catching up to do. I hope that I get all of my responses in the correct order.

EDIT: I really messed up and had a good chunk of my original post cut out and had to retype it.

I don't know much about either Daredevil or Batman, so it's a little hard for me to comment on them. But I think that Daredevil's powerset is pretty damn cool for a street hero. Batman doesn't have superpowers, but as far as I know he still has his utility belt and a bunch of handy gadgets and weapons that act as superpowers. If I understand Batman correctly he is also a world class detective. He's also written as being perfect at every thing. He is so perfect at everything that he could even beat Superman in a fight because he is such a great strategist. That's one heck of a superpower right there. I don't read DC, but if I did I would likely be a Batman fan over a Superman fan. But the idea that Batman could beat Superman in a fight is nuts to me. Batman is in fact an overpowered character.

I'm not just trying to contradict you so please don't take this as an insult. I actually agree with most of your points. It's just hard to use Batman as a comparison for any character.

One of Archangel's longest running themes is that he wants to be married and have children. During the 90's Blue/Gold era he even admits to being jealous of Scott and Jean's relationship and marriage. It happens around the time that Warren first begins to show interest in Betsy, if I remember correctly. The ending that Warren receives at the close of Dark Angel Saga shows Warren happily married with children.

Warren still wants to be a hero and an adventurer, but it is clearly also a goal of his to have a wife and be a father.

So having the Apocalypse Twins show up with Ichisumi would probably shake him up a little. Could lead to some good stories for him.

Lacking new material to comment, we're doomed to talk about the same things over and over again. But once in a while a new idea or topic or analysis might pop out of while talking about the same trite topic... so, why not?


On the bold: rumblings I made for a fanfiction (behind spoilers for those not interested)
spoilers:

I've been playing with either original or canon AUs. There's this one from X-Men: Millennial Visions. Times were different in the 2000s, canon says that the changed X-Men learn to live with their new body. Nowadays, we know that they would likely start the transitioning to return to their original gender. And, after some pondering, I understood that Warren wouldn't. He's been so scared and traumatized by medical procedures and manipulations to his body that I don't think he'd be able to psychologically face the transitioning procedure - from the drugs to the actual surgical side.

end of spoilers

Also. Any character, to have the chance to stand "solo", needs a rouge gallery. And Warren indeed has two.
First there's Cameron Hodge and his Right. With the way Cameron, for his first 10 years of existence (X-Factor + Genosha), was written as obsessed with Warren, it's odd that recent returns of Hodge didn't acknowledge this. Going back to X-Force, I don't remember if a shared past was even mentioned (the way writers used to use to inform new readers) or if Warren was epecially troubled upon seeing Cameron's name on X-Force's hit list. Or even if they faced each other (Cameron was dealt with during Messiah War, and by the New Mutants).
I seem to recall Cameron has recently (=Krakoa-era) returned. Again in the New Mutants. Warren never involved.
(Cameron is by now part of Karma's rogue galleries as well, if I recall right he's the reason why she lost her leg - still, Cameron was obsessed with ruining Warren, and a psychopath like him should never grow out of his obsession for their first victim.
And then Poccy. Poccy was created to be X-Factor's enemy, and later became Cable's very reason to fight.
But originally he was related to Warren. So Apocalypse should be co-shared between Cable and Warren. With the recent changes that were made to Apocalypse, I'm not much sure how Poccy can still fit as main villain to either Warren or Nathan, but you get what I mean.


I might be biased because the whole Warren/Betsy and Larocca, but Crimson Dawn is a jewel that should be un-forgotten. It ended establishing that Warren gave up a portion of his life to save Betsy's soul. Might be my romantic side but this is a huge concept, that should lead to a soulbound or something important. Not brushed aside as the whole Crimson Dawn was.
(it can be explained that Jamie, upon bringing back Elizabeth, removed the CD link, but we still don't know why Betsy lost the CD. Still, Warren's sacrifice wasn't erased by Betsy loosing the CD link)

EDIT: I messed up when I first responded to this post. my entire answer to it ended up being cut off and I had to retype the entire thing.

I want to be careful how I respond to the text you put under spoilers and the Can Hodge issue.
I'm not a member of the gay or trans community, and I don't want to offend any of the forum members that post here who are.

I'm not going to place spoiler tags around my answer to your fanfic because I'm terrible at it. I hope that you don't mind.

If I'm reading things correctly you think that if Warren were to be resurrected by the protocalls as a woman he would be to scared psychologically to transition back, am I correct? I disagree. As I sated earlier in this post Warren wants to be a father and have a wife. I can't picture him as being so scared by past body alterations that he wouldn't do anything in his power to get his male body back and achieve his marriage goals. He would resort to any Marvel science or magic that he could to get his male form back. I even believe that he would be willing to use methods available in real life to become male again. I just don't think that he is so scared that he wouldn't try anything. His past expeariences would probably help him adjust to having to make the transition back to male form. Plus we just know that Warren loves his body.
About the only story that I see getting from Warren being trapped as a woman would be to show him being unhappy with the body that he is now trapped in.

As for Cam Hodge, I think that he isn't used around Warren anymore because of how queer coded Hodge was in the original story. I read the story as Hodge being in love with Angel and being jealous that Angel loved Candy Southern. Marvel may not want to deal with a story involving a gay man being so in love with a hetero man that he becomes a villain and kills the hetero man's girlfriend the way that Hodge killed Candy. The state of the Real Life environment may not allow it. Just a guess on my part. And who knows. Hodge may have become such a machine mentally that he just doesn't care about Angel anymore.

As for the Crimson Dawn I would do a story like this. The mutant resurrection abilities give mutants their souls back, meaning that Warren has regained all of his. I would do a story where the Crimson Dawn returns to try and gain part of Angel's soul back because it believes that it is his.

[Thievery]

As for the idea of Warren being given a chance to carry his own comic, I obviously would be for it.

He has a lot of story potential just from the villains that were already listed. Apocalypse, the Apocalypse Twins, Ichisumi, Cam Hodge, and the Crimson Dawn. You could even bring back his uncle Burt and Maximus Lobo, seeing as how they killed his parents. Sauron would also work well, seeing as they both have wings and fly.

For barrowing a villain from another character's gallery, I think that using Cardiac from Spider-Man would make some sense. Cardiac is kind of a terrorist who targets corrupt companies. Usually he targets corrupt pharmaceutical companies, but Warren does have a large business, corporation, and we so from the Lobo Tech story that corruption can seep in, and maybe Cardiac finds some and target's Worthinton Enterprises for it.
Morbius the Living Vampire also might fit.

A plus for Warren is that he does well in stories involving regular humans. Candy Southern and Charlotte Jones were both great supporting characters for Archangel. It wouldn't be hard to build a human supporting cast considering that he owns a major business company to start creating supporting characters with.
If Archangel did get his own comic, I think that I would focus on him being a street hero.

Now having said all of this I don't there is a snowballs chance in you know what that Archangel ever receives his own comic.

[Grinning Soul]

I really missed a lot in this thread while people were posting and have some catching up to do. I hope that I get all of my responses in the correct order.

EDIT: I really messed up and had a good chunk of my original post cut out and had to retype it.

I don't know much about either Daredevil or Batman, so it's a little hard for me to comment on them. But I think that Daredevil's powerset is pretty damn cool for a street hero.

DD is my favourite Marvel character (could you tell? :P). So I most definitely agree about his powerset. :)

Batman doesn't have superpowers, but as far as I know he still has his utility belt and a bunch of handy gadgets and weapons that act as superpowers. If I understand Batman correctly he is also a world class detective. He's also written as being perfect at every thing. He is so perfect at everything that he could even beat Superman in a fight because he is such a great strategist. That's one heck of a superpower right there. I don't read DC, but if I did I would likely be a Batman fan over a Superman fan. But the idea that Batman could beat Superman in a fight is nuts to me. Batman is in fact an overpowered character.

I'm not just trying to contradict you so please don't take this as an insult. I actually agree with most of your points. It's just hard to use Batman as a comparison for any character.

Don’t worry about my taking insult, please. I’m okay with people disagreeing with me. Especially if they’re being polite about it. :)

I even agree with the gist of what you’re saying, which is why I wrote that you could argue Batman’s intellect is a super power, even though, technically, it isn’t.

The point was simply that the power levels don’t matter much when it comes to what makes a character work.

If Batman isn’t a good example for you, then he isn’t. No problem. You can substitute him for The Punisher, for instance.

NOTE: I’m not a fan of neither Batman or the Punisher, but I’d be crazy to deny both characters have their fans.

One of Archangel's longest running themes is that he wants to be married and have children. During the 90's Blue/Gold era he even admits to being jealous of Scott and Jean's relationship and marriage. It happens around the time that Warren first begins to show interest in Betsy, if I remember correctly.

It is. If you consider how/why he and Betsy broke up, it gives you an even better insight about it.

Connect that to his relationship with Charlotte and it makes even more sense.

The ending that Warren receives at the close of Dark Angel Saga shows Warren happily married with children.

Although I *love* that scene (it made me literally cry), their romance during that story is also the part that feels the most forced and derivative to me.

I wish Remender had spent more time building it up.

Warren still wants to be a hero and an adventurer, but it is clearly also a goal of his to have a wife and be a father.

So having the Apocalypse Twins show up with Ichisumi would probably shake him up a little. Could lead to some good stories for him.

In the hands of a good writer, yes.

But I’d prefer to let those three characters rest in peace. In part is simply because I don’t like them. But it’s mostly because I can predict they’d be used in stupid ways that would make me dislike them even more. And what’s worse, hurt Warren’s character in the process (in a way that might be *very* difficult to redeem).

Let’s say I’d prefer to see it done in a fanfic than an official book. I do *not* trust Marvel.

So, I’d prefer to explore his desire for a family and a meaningful romantic relationship through other means.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah! I know he had to share with others during X-Cutioner's Song, but I'll always love the EPIC scene between Warren & Apoccy (XD)

Thanks for sharing, K7P5V. I *love* scenes like this. It's great to see it again. :)

[Hakka84]

I too have lost some heavy meat. I'll break the reply in two posts.

One of Archangel's longest running themes is that he wants to be married and have children. During the 90's Blue/Gold era he even admits to being jealous of Scott and Jean's relationship and marriage. It happens around the time that Warren first begins to show interest in Betsy, if I remember correctly. The ending that Warren receives at the close of Dark Angel Saga shows Warren happily married with children.
Warren still wants to be a hero and an adventurer, but it is clearly also a goal of his to have a wife and be a father.
So having the Apocalypse Twins show up with Ichisumi would probably shake him up a little. Could lead to some good stories for him.

I agree. We haven't seen much of Warren with children and how he feels or acts around them (minus the fake scenario during DAS). There's an Unlimited story in which he sets up a place where (disabled?) children can fly, and he's shown to be happy in flying with them.

(Don't worry about the spoilers tag. I use them to respect you people, so in case any of you weren't interested to readd you could skip it)
The scenario was written in the 2000s, so something pre-Krakoa. The scenario (year 2000) was that the X-Men were subjected to some rays that reversed their gender and the canon author implied that the involved X-Men all would learn to live with their new (swapped) gender. Which I don't see believable.
If the Warren from this scenario had access to Krakoa's protocols, I'm SURE he'd ask to die and be resurrected with his original DNA (so male). Because as you pointed our, Warren (on top of wanting to have a family of his own) has never had issues with his body. And yes, I agree he would search for any tech that could reverse the change. But the scenario (which, I underline, is a canon story) specifies that the X-Men cannot find any way to reverse the change (no tech, no magic, no Jamie Braddock to play warp reality). So I was playing by the canon rules.
We have to return to X-Factor, but Warren was canon-ized as being heavily traumatized by hospitals and drugs. And the transitioning procedure is not easy walk. I see him not feeling like starting. I'm not much competent, so what I say might be wrong, but no surgical operation (as 2024's tech in our world) could ever give Warren completely his body back - he would still miss things, things would still be different. I don't see Warren facing his PTSD about hospitals and body manipulations just to have an "imitation" of his former body back.
I just use this silly story to latch up to Grinning Soul.

Hm, you could be right on Cam Hodge (but this would imply the X-Office is aware of Warren's past with Cam and give a thing about it, which... I'm not sure!).
I admit I never read him queer coded back then, and always thought people mixed up Cameron with the guy from Angel: Revelations (which, if I remember right, is said to be in love/attracted by Warren - might be wrong!).
Recently, though... yes, that line of his to Candy about "he left me for you" is very... hm.

As for the Crimson Dawn I would do a story like this. The mutant resurrection abilities give mutants their souls back, meaning that Warren has regained all of his. I would do a story where the Crimson Dawn returns to try and gain part of Angel's soul back because it believes that it is his.

THIS IS BRILLIANT!!! *capslock necessary* I so need to steal it for my AUs, Thievery, can I, can I?
I think we already spoke about this, not sure how you felt about Warren having access to Crimson Dawn's powers. But, it would be a good way to give Warren a link to Crimson Dawn and access to it. I admit now I'm thinking about a sequel to the Crimson Dawn story, in which unbalance threatens the Crimson Dawn reign (Gomurr is gone, vanished, whatever). So there could be some kind of inner succession battle, and Warren considered one of those who could raise to the throne and/or the new guy in charge to claim Warren - as Kuragari did with Psylocke in the miniseries.
With the Crimson Dawn so heavily linked to the whole bodyswap and "appropriation" of Asian-coded themes to whites (Betsy, Warren, Logan), I don't think the Crimson Dawn will ever be used again. Too bad.

As for the idea of Warren being given a chance to carry his own comic
(...)
A plus for Warren is that he does well in stories involving regular humans. Candy Southern and Charlotte Jones were both great supporting characters for Archangel. It wouldn't be hard to build a human supporting cast considering that he owns a major business company to start creating supporting characters with.
If Archangel did get his own comic, I think that I would focus on him being a street hero.

Now having said all of this I don't there is a snowballs chance in you know what that Archangel ever receives his own comic.

100% quoting this. Up to, sadly, the last line.
I think he fought with Sauron more than once, either in Hidden Years and/or the Ka-zar title or a title with Spider-Man in the Savage Land.

[Hakka84]

It is. If you consider how/why he and Betsy broke up, it gives you an even better insight about it.

Although I *love* that scene (it made me literally cry), their romance during that story is also the part that feels the most forced and derivative to me.

I wish Remender had spent more time building it up.

I've re-read DAS a couple of days ago. What's interesting, more than the fake scenario, is this scene from Uncanny X-Force #19:

I agree we could've been given more, but given the medium and the themes of the title, what we got is already "enough". I dread to think how a Dark Angel Saga would've been written if it was written in the Krakoa era.

You idea of how the Twins could've been tackled in Krakoa era is very interesting indeed. I wish we could get a story like this. And I agree on trusting fanfictions over canon titles.

Did I mention I really love their friendship?

Did I mention that my headcanon is that Warren is Jean's best (male) friend and Jean is Warren's best friend ever?
I wish we could see them again together.


I want to thank you both. These last days this thread has been a gem!