Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[LoganAlpha30X33]

What better way to start a new Era in X-history than to have Warren come back as maybe the Avenging Angel and not all messed up. I'd love to see the whole soul connection between Warren and Betsy be brought up for starters and give those two another chance after she and Rachel split whenever that happens, or maybe be the reason without intending to be.

[Thievery]

DD is my favourite Marvel character (could you tell? :P). So I most definitely agree about his powerset.

It is. If you consider how/why he and Betsy broke up, it gives you an even better insight about it.

Connect that to his relationship with Charlotte and it makes even more sense.

I read Angel's decision to break up with Betsy to be a selfish and petty decision on his part. He got mad that Betsy forced him to turn back into Archangel to help win a fight against Nate Grey in the battle that led up to Age of X-Man. I know that being Archangel upsets Warren, but man the X-Men needed help badly. As far as we know Warren never even gave her a chance to make up.

Angel really comes across as having thrown away the chance at happiness that he wanted with Betsy over pure spite.

He cost himself his own dreams on that one.

He costs himself a shot with Charlotte as well by kicking her to the street. We aren't given an explanation for it. It really appears as though Archangel broke up with Charlotte because the writers wanted to hook Angel and Betsy Braddock up.

But knowing that Angel wants to have a wife always kind of makes me think whenever he acquires a new girlfriend.
Like look at Paige Guthrie. I'm not saying that Warren immediately wanted to put a ring on her finger, but Warren was certainly interested in her.

[Thievery]

I too have lost some heavy meat. I'll break the reply in two posts.


I agree. We haven't seen much of Warren with children and how he feels or acts around them (minus the fake scenario during DAS). There's an Unlimited story in which he sets up a place where (disabled?) children can fly, and he's shown to be happy in flying with them.

(Don't worry about the spoilers tag. I use them to respect you people, so in case any of you weren't interested to readd you could skip it)
The scenario was written in the 2000s, so something pre-Krakoa. The scenario (year 2000) was that the X-Men were subjected to some rays that reversed their gender and the canon author implied that the involved X-Men all would learn to live with their new (swapped) gender. Which I don't see believable.
If the Warren from this scenario had access to Krakoa's protocols, I'm SURE he'd ask to die and be resurrected with his original DNA (so male). Because as you pointed our, Warren (on top of wanting to have a family of his own) has never had issues with his body. And yes, I agree he would search for any tech that could reverse the change. But the scenario (which, I underline, is a canon story) specifies that the X-Men cannot find any way to reverse the change (no tech, no magic, no Jamie Braddock to play warp reality). So I was playing by the canon rules.
We have to return to X-Factor, but Warren was canon-ized as being heavily traumatized by hospitals and drugs. And the transitioning procedure is not easy walk. I see him not feeling like starting. I'm not much competent, so what I say might be wrong, but no surgical operation (as 2024's tech in our world) could ever give Warren completely his body back - he would still miss things, things would still be different. I don't see Warren facing his PTSD about hospitals and body manipulations just to have an "imitation" of his former body back.
I just use this silly story to latch up to Grinning Soul.

Hm, you could be right on Cam Hodge (but this would imply the X-Office is aware of Warren's past with Cam and give a thing about it, which... I'm not sure!).
I admit I never read him queer coded back then, and always thought people mixed up Cameron with the guy from Angel: Revelations (which, if I remember right, is said to be in love/attracted by Warren - might be wrong!).
Recently, though... yes, that line of his to Candy about "he left me for you" is very... hm.


THIS IS BRILLIANT!!! *capslock necessary* I so need to steal it for my AUs, Thievery, can I, can I?
I think we already spoke about this, not sure how you felt about Warren having access to Crimson Dawn's powers. But, it would be a good way to give Warren a link to Crimson Dawn and access to it. I admit now I'm thinking about a sequel to the Crimson Dawn story, in which unbalance threatens the Crimson Dawn reign (Gomurr is gone, vanished, whatever). So there could be some kind of inner succession battle, and Warren considered one of those who could raise to the throne and/or the new guy in charge to claim Warren - as Kuragari did with Psylocke in the miniseries.
With the Crimson Dawn so heavily linked to the whole bodyswap and "appropriation" of Asian-coded themes to whites (Betsy, Warren, Logan), I don't think the Crimson Dawn will ever be used again. Too bad.


100% quoting this. Up to, sadly, the last line.
I think he fought with Sauron more than once, either in Hidden Years and/or the Ka-zar title or a title with Spider-Man in the Savage Land.

Do whatever you want to with the Crimson Dawn idea, Hakka84. I'm not going to use it. But you might want to make sure that no one else has already.

Cam Hodge always read as queer to me. I think a lot of Hodge's bitterness comes from the fact that Warren is hetero and doesn't return the feelings. Like I said, Given the ramped up prejudice towards gay people I can understand why Marvel may not want to go near that story again.

Now for Angel Revelations and the story there.

I reread the story a few times recently and am still not fond of it.
I haven't been posting about it because I know that Til is planning to read it and I don't want to spoil it.

So I'll just comment on the Andrew Palmer character and then leave the rest for when Til has read it and we can see what he thinks.

This story takes place in a Catholic boarding school for teenagers. It also has to be set in an AU.
Andrew definitely is in love with Warren. Warren however, is not in love with Andrew. Warren's girlfriend at the beginning of the story likes to rub this in Andrew's face. Warren is straight in this AU story. The story explains that Warren and Andrew's families are friends. Warren has basically been put in charge of looking out for Andrew and keeping him safe since Warren is a senior and Andrew is a fairly undersized sophomore who would have a hard time defending himself against bigger kids. The two of them are pretty good friends though.

Andrew is actually a pretty decent character. There is one spot in the comic that makes you wonder about the guy, though.
That's all that I will say for now.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Or the writers just wanted to break Warren and Betsy up and didn't write the split well, again, so in the future a new writer could easily just ignore it mostly.

[marhawkman]

Or the writers just wanted to break Warren and Betsy up and didn't write the split well, again, so in the future a new writer could easily just ignore it mostly.

I think Apoccy wouldn't hate the idea of Betsy giving Warren kids.

[Grinning Soul]

I agree we could've been given more, but given the medium and the themes of the title, what we got is already "enough". I dread to think how a Dark Angel Saga would've been written if it was written in the Krakoa era.

Unfortunately, comics nowadays are written differently indeed.

Back when DAS was released, things weren’t as bad as they are today, but the writer still had to hit the ground running.

So sure, I get that.

It just makes it harder to be invested and, for me, the story would’ve worked even better if he had taken his time to develop their relationship better.

As for DAS being written in the Krakoa era… Well, I better just say I share the sentiment. :)

Did I mention that my headcanon is that Warren is Jean's best (male) friend and Jean is Warren's best friend ever?
I wish we could see them again together.

I wish I could see them together again. I'm still a bit "upset" that it wasn't Warren who bought the space for the Treehouse (not to mention he hasn't run for X-men once).

Fingers crossed they'll get to meet in the next era. :)

I want to thank you both. These last days this thread has been a gem!

It’s been really nice. Thank you too. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I read Angel's decision to break up with Betsy to be a selfish and petty decision on his part. He got mad that Betsy forced him to turn back into Archangel to help win a fight against Nate Grey in the battle that led up to Age of X-Man. I know that being Archangel upsets Warren, but man the X-Men needed help badly. As far as we know Warren never even gave her a chance to make up.

Angel really comes across as having thrown away the chance at happiness that he wanted with Betsy over pure spite.

He cost himself his own dreams on that one.

I was talking about the time they broke up in the early 2000s, though. Hakka84 just posted it on the previous page (post #60).

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6698875

After seeing the way she was interacting with Neal, Warren didn’t think she was really committed, which is why he asked her about it on the scan Hakka84 posted.

I suppose seeing her behavior made him realize he wasn’t either (“(...) are you truly happy with what we've got?" -- I guess this means he wasn't happy himself).

That was why he preferred to be alone so he could look for what he really wanted for his life (a relationship like Scott and Jean's = marriage), even if getting it and losing it terrified him.

--

Now back to the more recent break-up…

Well, it certainly wasn’t well executed. It seemed someone decided it was time to break them up, but didn’t give it much thought.

I hate when writers do that.

Anyway, you get now why I’m afraid of Marvel handling delicate relationships such as the ones Warren would have with the twins and their mother?

He costs himself a shot with Charlotte as well by kicking her to the street. We aren't given an explanation for it. It really appears as though Archangel broke up with Charlotte because the writers wanted to hook Angel and Betsy Braddock up.

I’m sorry. I wasn’t clear again.

When it comes to Charlotte I was talking about why they became a couple in the first place.

The connection between Warren wanting a wife and kids, and Charlotte is not written explicitly in the X-Factor story, but I think it’s aligned with other aspects of his history.

Let me try to explain.

It’s shown in the story that absorbing her memories had a big effect on him. Even though those memories started to fade quickly, he was very impressed with her because of them (it wasn’t “merely” because she had saved him).

So I *wonder* if her memories of her family, her love for her late husband and kid played a role on his admiration for her. He finds out later she even lived with her mother-in-law. Definitely a family-oriented woman, right?

Could that be part of why he was attracted to her? Together with her courage and her empathy, of course.

[Obviously, Louise Simonson couldn’t have known what other writers would write later for Warren, but I think it’s curious that it fits well.]

That being said, I’d agree their break-up seemed to be motivated for wanting to write Warren and Betsy together.

It’s also easier to manage romantic relationships with a big cast if you have the main characters dating each other.

But yeah… another clumsy break-up. If you can call it that.

But knowing that Angel wants to have a wife always kind of makes me think whenever he acquires a new girlfriend.
Like look at Paige Guthrie. I'm not saying that Warren immediately wanted to put a ring on her finger, but Warren was certainly interested in her.

Another thing I wish had never happened, but... since it did, let me say this.

The girl seemed loving towards her family… Mmm… :P

I honestly think we could argue he’s attracted to women with whom he sees a chance of eventually forming a family together. (I’m not saying it’s the *only* thing that counts, but it seems to matter a lot to him).

Even Jean and (I guess) Candy fit the role, if you think about it.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

They only broke up those years ago because CC was going to start X-treme X-Men and only taking Betsy and Neal so he had to rush through their split. Otherwise they would have stayed together for more months or years.

[Sutekh]

I think Apoccy wouldn't hate the idea of Betsy giving Warren kids.

I always like the notion of finding ways in which mutant pairings can have powers synergize in their kids. Not like 'Scott and Jean have a kid, and it's a telepath / telekinetic like mom and gets bupkiss from dad.' More like 'Scott and Emma have a kid, and she turns to ruby crystal like mom *and* fires blasts like dad.'

Mixing Angel's wings with Kwannon's DNA (since he was dating her body, not Betsy's body) could lead to someone very much like DC's Dawnstar, with winged flight and a psychic tracking sense. Not necessarily a full-blown telepath, like Betsy, but more similar to whatever 'psychic sensitive' abilities Kwannon had pre-body-swap with Betsy.

Then again, maybe avoid the Dawnstar riff, and just make a child of Warren and Betsy able to create wings of psychic energy, allowing them to fly at superhuman speed, wrap themselves up in them as a defense, or lash out with them for powerful telekinetic blows, or make them ethereal and telepathic in nature so that they cloak the mind, allow astral 'flight' or can sweep through people like a psychic arrow attack from Moonstar or psychic knife attack from Psylocke. Maybe even make pink energy 'feather knives' that fly out from the psychic wings and inflict psychic damage on people at range?

[Grinning Soul]

I always like the notion of finding ways in which mutant pairings can have powers synergize in their kids. Not like 'Scott and Jean have a kid, and it's a telepath / telekinetic like mom and gets bupkiss from dad.' More like 'Scott and Emma have a kid, and she turns to ruby crystal like mom *and* fires blasts like dad.'

Mixing Angel's wings with Kwannon's DNA (since he was dating her body, not Betsy's body) could lead to someone very much like DC's Dawnstar, with winged flight and a psychic tracking sense. Not necessarily a full-blown telepath, like Betsy, but more similar to whatever 'psychic sensitive' abilities Kwannon had pre-body-swap with Betsy.

Then again, maybe avoid the Dawnstar riff, and just make a child of Warren and Betsy able to create wings of psychic energy, allowing them to fly at superhuman speed, wrap themselves up in them as a defense, or lash out with them for powerful telekinetic blows, or make them ethereal and telepathic in nature so that they cloak the mind, allow astral 'flight' or can sweep through people like a psychic arrow attack from Moonstar or psychic knife attack from Psylocke. Maybe even make pink energy 'feather knives' that fly out from the psychic wings and inflict psychic damage on people at range?

Not to dismiss your idea, but it occurred to me that could also be a child of Pixie and Quentin Quire.

Now, imagine if both those couples had kids and those kids would have kids! :D

[Thievery]

I was talking about the time they broke up in the early 2000s, though. Hakka84 just posted it on the previous page (post #60).

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post6698875

After seeing the way she was interacting with Neal, Warren didn’t think she was really committed, which is why he asked her about it on the scan Hakka84 posted.

I suppose seeing her behavior made him realize he wasn’t either (“(...) are you truly happy with what we've got?" -- I guess this means he wasn't happy himself).

That was why he preferred to be alone so he could look for what he really wanted for his life (a relationship like Scott and Jean's = marriage), even if getting it and losing it terrified him.

--

Now back to the more recent break-up…

Well, it certainly wasn’t well executed. It seemed someone decided it was time to break them up, but didn’t give it much thought.

I hate when writers do that.

Anyway, you get now why I’m afraid of Marvel handling delicate relationships such as the ones Warren would have with the twins and their mother?





I’m sorry. I wasn’t clear again.

When it comes to Charlotte I was talking about why they became a couple in the first place.

The connection between Warren wanting a wife and kids, and Charlotte is not written explicitly in the X-Factor story, but I think it’s aligned with other aspects of his history.

Let me try to explain.

It’s shown in the story that absorbing her memories had a big effect on him. Even though those memories started to fade quickly, he was very impressed with her because of them (it wasn’t “merely” because she had saved him).

So I *wonder* if her memories of her family, her love for her late husband and kid played a role on his admiration for her. He finds out later she even lived with her mother-in-law. Definitely a family-oriented woman, right?

Could that be part of why he was attracted to her? Together with her courage and her empathy, of course.

[Obviously, Louise Simonson couldn’t have known what other writers would write later for Warren, but I think it’s curious that it fits well.]

That being said, I’d agree their break-up seemed to be motivated for wanting to write Warren and Betsy together.

It’s also easier to manage romantic relationships with a big cast if you have the main characters dating each other.

But yeah… another clumsy break-up. If you can call it that.





Another thing I wish had never happened, but... since it did, let me say this.

The girl seemed loving towards her family… Mmm… :P

I honestly think we could argue he’s attracted to women with whom he sees a chance of eventually forming a family together. (I’m not saying it’s the *only* thing that counts, but it seems to matter a lot to him).

Even Jean and (I guess) Candy fit the role, if you think about it.

Wow, I don't know what to say about the first break up with Psylocke that Hakka84 actually posted pictures of in this thread. I somehow completely skipped reading that post. It's especially ironic because I was actually trying to remember which comic that scene comes from. I was searching for it to use as an example of Warren's want for a family. He doesn't always spell it out in words that way. It's there. Usually it's a little more vague.
In the issue where Warren and Jean are at Warren's place and are attacked by Hodge Warren references it to a degree. He tells Jean that Scott is stupid for not asking him to marry her, if I remember correctly. If I do remember the scene correctly he doesn't spell out in as many words that he wants to be married. It's very noticeable that it's Candy who shows up to attack Warren as part of the Phalanx in that issue.

It was always kind of apparent that Warren and Charlotte partly broke up because there wasn't enough room in the comic for her. When they first become a couple over in X-Factor there were only five members of that team at a time and it was easier to have a supporting cast. But the fact that the writers wanted to put Betsy with Warren also played a role. Charlotte deserved a better exit from the comic that she received though. She mostly just got Warren not returning her calls.

In regards to Paige Guthrie I didn't mind it at first. It paired a rich man with a poor country girl to give the characters contrasting family backgrounds. I noticed that they came from different types of families. It also had the bonus effect of Warren running a big corporation while Paige was a character who disapproved of corporate malpractice.
It sticks out a little bit that in the She Lies With Angels story that Warren brings up the fact that he is a little bit concerned that Paige is a little bit younger than he is. The scene is with Paige's mom. At least I believe that is the story and characters. I don't own the comics anymore as they were some of the ones to go when I was moving houses.

[Thievery]

They only broke up those years ago because CC was going to start X-treme X-Men and only taking Betsy and Neal so he had to rush through their split. Otherwise they would have stayed together for more months or years.

We know. It was that second breakup before Age of X-Man was pretty much the end of the road for Betsy and Warren.

Sorry, Logan, we all know how much that ship meant to you. Maybe you will get lucky and a different ship that you are a fan of will pull through for you.

I always like the notion of finding ways in which mutant pairings can have powers synergize in their kids. Not like 'Scott and Jean have a kid, and it's a telepath / telekinetic like mom and gets bupkiss from dad.' More like 'Scott and Emma have a kid, and she turns to ruby crystal like mom *and* fires blasts like dad.'

Mixing Angel's wings with Kwannon's DNA (since he was dating her body, not Betsy's body) could lead to someone very much like DC's Dawnstar, with winged flight and a psychic tracking sense. Not necessarily a full-blown telepath, like Betsy, but more similar to whatever 'psychic sensitive' abilities Kwannon had pre-body-swap with Betsy.

Then again, maybe avoid the Dawnstar riff, and just make a child of Warren and Betsy able to create wings of psychic energy, allowing them to fly at superhuman speed, wrap themselves up in them as a defense, or lash out with them for powerful telekinetic blows, or make them ethereal and telepathic in nature so that they cloak the mind, allow astral 'flight' or can sweep through people like a psychic arrow attack from Moonstar or psychic knife attack from Psylocke. Maybe even make pink energy 'feather knives' that fly out from the psychic wings and inflict psychic damage on people at range?

Shoot, now I miss Ruby Summers and hate the Emma/Toney Stark pairing more than I used to.

There is a website that I once stumbled upon where a long running thread was created for fans to combine powers from existing characters into their children. It had art and everything. I wish that I remembered which site it was so that I could tell you as you seem as though you would like it. Maybe it was uncannyxmen.net. Can't recall for sure though. That thread is likely gone by now regardless of which site, though

[Hakka84]

On a rush, so I won't reply to everybody!

I always like the notion of finding ways in which mutant pairings can have powers synergize in their kids. Not like 'Scott and Jean have a kid, and it's a telepath / telekinetic like mom and gets bupkiss from dad.' More like 'Scott and Emma have a kid, and she turns to ruby crystal like mom *and* fires blasts like dad.'

Mixing Angel's wings with Kwannon's DNA (since he was dating her body, not Betsy's body) could lead to someone very much like DC's Dawnstar, with winged flight and a psychic tracking sense. Not necessarily a full-blown telepath, like Betsy, but more similar to whatever 'psychic sensitive' abilities Kwannon had pre-body-swap with Betsy.

Then again, maybe avoid the Dawnstar riff, and just make a child of Warren and Betsy able to create wings of psychic energy, allowing them to fly at superhuman speed, wrap themselves up in them as a defense, or lash out with them for powerful telekinetic blows, or make them ethereal and telepathic in nature so that they cloak the mind, allow astral 'flight' or can sweep through people like a psychic arrow attack from Moonstar or psychic knife attack from Psylocke. Maybe even make pink energy 'feather knives' that fly out from the psychic wings and inflict psychic damage on people at range?

I've often played scenarios in my mind on the "W/B children" thing and I always came out empty. These are good ideas.

Ten or more years ago there was an X-Men RPG that I think was famous on its own? Anyway, they gave Warren and Betsy a kid (a Warren IV obs) who was a telepath if I remember right, and got wings... I think made of telepathy/tk? They were pink and translucid like Betsy's knife. I don't recall the name of that character, or a fanart or two could be savaged from google. I think it was a neat idea.
Wings made of the same "focused totality etc" would look awesome, they wouldn't cut but scramble one's mind.
I admit I don't usually go over "same powers of parents". ^^" I needed to figure out/come up with two children Warren could have with Betsy (caucasian) to mirror the Apoccy Twins for [reason] and never managed - I thought about playing on Warren's secondary/forgotten powers (such as the ones he got during The Twelve or the blue light ones that timedisplaced was shown to get in a future, as seen by Magnus in X-Men Blue). But yeah, 0% creativity.
Given that mutant powers is a lottery, it would be cool if children of mutants got completely different/unrelated powers from their parents. Think about Nathan Summers getting earth manipulation of superspeed instead of tp/tk like clone-mommy. =)
In this the Maximoff worked - when they still were Magnus children, they both had powers that had nothing to do with Magnus.

Leaving you with two fairly old but still good W/B fanarts I stumbled at while searching for the aforementioned RPG character.



by Orb78 on DeviantArt.

And

by Sergetowers on DeviantArt. I have bought the shirt with this (I picked blue as the cotton color) and I had the courage to wear it yet: it's too awesome to use it and risk ruin it!

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Warren and Betsy could still happen in the future Thievery, as for kids I had a daughter with wings that resembled her mother physically and a son that took after Warren physically and was a tp and tk. It wasn't about a bodyswap the two bodies were mixed together so neither body was entirely Kwannon and neither body was entirely Betsy either. I don't think that any important X-couple is ever truly over.

[Hakka84]

You must've posted while I was writing my previous reply.

Wow, I don't know what to say about the first break up with Psylocke that Hakka84 actually posted pictures of in this thread. I somehow completely skipped reading that post. It's especially ironic because I was actually trying to remember which comic that scene comes from. I was searching for it to use as an example of Warren's want for a family. He doesn't always spell it out in words that way. It's there. Usually it's a little more vague.

It's a Chris Claremont. I think that explains it.

Speaking of Charlotte. I agree. At least in the Lobo arch (right before Warren accepts Paige's flirting), Warren and Charlotte meet again and she is friendly and even worried so much that she wants for them to go on a date/restaurant so he can explain her how he's suddenly pink again. Too late, but at least they fixed it.
On Paige. You're right, Thievery. Bobby also keeps warning Warren about the age difference. Ironically, it's Mama Guthrie who eases Warren's fear by saying something akin of "you love her, you stay with her and make her happy" - in reply to his "I'm too old for her".

Speaking of the second breaking up. I always thought the reason Warren and Betsy were broken up unceremoniously post Age of X-Man was because of Blob - as in, they wanted to explore that pairing.
But I didn't knew, back then, that Krakoa was already in the working, and Dissassembled was akin to a filler episode. Now I'm fairly sure their pair was broken up because Hickman (Howard) wanted Betsy single (to then hook up with Rachel)