Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Thievery]

Leaving you with two fairly old but still good W/B fanarts I stumbled at while searching for the aforementioned RPG character.



by Orb78 on DeviantArt.

And

by Sergetowers on DeviantArt. I have bought the shirt with this (I picked blue as the cotton color) and I had the courage to wear it yet: it's too awesome to use it and risk ruin it!

That first one is incredible. The artist should be doing covers.
I know that this will upset some people, but now I for sure want to see some interaction with Warren/Kwannon. Couple preferably, but I'll accept friends.
It might remind some of how Scott hooked up with Maddie Pryor because she looked like Jean, but I think that the body swap, mixed genes, and possible personality swaps mitigate that a little.

Wear the second shirt with pride at least once to a comic shop or convention. You can put it in storage afterwards.

Warren and Betsy could still happen in the future Thievery, as for kids I had a daughter with wings that resembled her mother physically and a son that took after Warren physically and was a tp and tk. It wasn't about a bodyswap the two bodies were mixed together so neither body was entirely Kwannon and neither body was entirely Betsy either. I don't think that any important X-couple is ever truly over.

Wow! You have a daughter with wings and a kid with tp and tk! I demand pictures as proof of their existence .

Most major X-couples don't die, but this one did. Rachel/Betsy won't be undone no matter how bad the execution was.

EDIT:Sorry that I can't respond to every post at once, but I get messages saying that my posts are to long.

[Thievery]

You must've posted while I was writing my previous reply.


It's a Chris Claremont. I think that explains it.

Speaking of Charlotte. I agree. At least in the Lobo arch (right before Warren accepts Paige's flirting), Warren and Charlotte meet again and she is friendly and even worried so much that she wants for them to go on a date/restaurant so he can explain her how he's suddenly pink again. Too late, but at least they fixed it.
On Paige. You're right, Thievery. Bobby also keeps warning Warren about the age difference. Ironically, it's Mama Guthrie who eases Warren's fear by saying something akin of "you love her, you stay with her and make her happy" - in reply to his "I'm too old for her".

Speaking of the second breaking up. I always thought the reason Warren and Betsy were broken up unceremoniously post Age of X-Man was because of Blob - as in, they wanted to explore that pairing.
But I didn't knew, back then, that Krakoa was already in the working, and Dissassembled was akin to a filler episode. Now I'm fairly sure their pair was broken up because Hickman (Howard) wanted Betsy single (to then hook up with Rachel)

I will be honest. As badly as Warren treated Charlotte and as much as I wanted to see her get a better send off, I didn't care for her appearance in the Lobo story. I know that couples can forgive each other, but Archangel really kicked her to the curb. I wish that she had just not even brought their past relationship up. I know that the story required it, but I wish Charlotte had just kept things between herself and Warren strictly business. She deserved that much after how he treated her.

And yes, Bobby did keep warning Warren about Paige. In the end he sort of came to accept it. He referred to it as Warren "being into cheerleaders". In retrospect you can read that as Bobby coming to grips with being gay and still having feelings for Angel if you want, but Bobby never had problems with Archangel having girlfriends before. I just read Bobby as being something of a jerk.

Back to Paige for a bit. I didn't notice it before, but now that we are talking about families I think that it is worth pointing out that Warren picked Paige over Stacey-X. I liked Stacey better, but you can see how Angel would choose Paige instead.

I think it's pretty obvious that both Howard and Williams wanted Betsy/Rachel. The end result wasn't a very good story, but they tried hard to write it, and they tried for something different at least. In theory Betsy/Rachel should work, so I can see another writer giving them another try. Plus it is liked by some fans, even if it isn't well liked in this thread.

Sorry for having to split my posts into more than one instead of replying to everyone at once, but I keep getting messages that say my posts are to long.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I didn't mean that it would be undone like it never happened only that it won't last forever and doesn't mean that Warren and Betsy can never happen again. Other writers I don't see them suddenly wanting to write Betsy and Rachel as a couple...

[Grinning Soul]

Wow, I don't know what to say about the first break up with Psylocke that Hakka84 actually posted pictures of in this thread. I somehow completely skipped reading that post.

I do stuff like that all the time. In real life, with 3D objects right in front of my nose. So don’t worry, you get no judgement from me! :D

It's especially ironic because I was actually trying to remember which comic that scene comes from. I was searching for it to use as an example of Warren's want for a family. He doesn't always spell it out in words that way. It's there. Usually it's a little more vague.
In the issue where Warren and Jean are at Warren's place and are attacked by Hodge Warren references it to a degree. He tells Jean that Scott is stupid for not asking him to marry her, if I remember correctly. If I do remember the scene correctly he doesn't spell out in as many words that he wants to be married. It's very noticeable that it's Candy who shows up to attack Warren as part of the Phalanx in that issue.

Oh, no. He does spell it out.

From Uncanny X-Men #306: "If I was the guy you were in love with -- I'd have asked you to marry me the day we graduated Xavier's."



It’s one of the things I *love* about Warren. It’s that combination of being brave and impetuous.

Being eighteen and in love? Marry the girl! No problem. :D

Surely, by that scene alone, you could argue he wasn’t being literal, but if you consider the body of evidence, I’d argue he was. Plus, Jean seemed to have understood he meant it too.

It was always kind of apparent that Warren and Charlotte partly broke up because there wasn't enough room in the comic for her. When they first become a couple over in X-Factor there were only five members of that team at a time and it was easier to have a supporting cast. But the fact that the writers wanted to put Betsy with Warren also played a role. Charlotte deserved a better exit from the comic that she received though. She mostly just got Warren not returning her calls.

Exactly. When they moved back to the mansion, not only they removed Warren from New York, they increased the cast by a lot. Both Hank and Bobby also had non X-Men girlfriends. I can imagine it was hard to manage.

That being said, they could have given them a better break-up for sure. I’ll never argue against that.

In regards to Paige Guthrie I didn't mind it at first. It paired a rich man with a poor country girl to give the characters contrasting family backgrounds. I noticed that they came from different types of families. It also had the bonus effect of Warren running a big corporation while Paige was a character who disapproved of corporate malpractice.
It sticks out a little bit that in the She Lies With Angels story that Warren brings up the fact that he is a little bit concerned that Paige is a little bit younger than he is. The scene is with Paige's mom. At least I believe that is the story and characters. I don't own the comics anymore as they were some of the ones to go when I was moving houses.

I agree with the contrast being interesting. But, again, my problem was with the execution.

As for the age difference… With the sliding timescale, one of those days, Warren would have to be younger than Paige so the O5 don’t reach 30. :D

I don’t know what the X-Office imagine happens to heroes when they reach 30. It’s like they believe the human body, if super powered, disintegrates, or something. :D

Seriously, though, let’s look at it from the perspective of the time.

Personally, I saw the O5 already nearing 30 in the 90s. So there would be about 8-11 years of difference between Warren and Paige.

It’s not that crazy. The problem was not the difference, though. If she was in her 30s and he was in his 40s, it’d be totally fine.

But she was still a teen. So, for me, it was more like, “Come on, Warren. Do you want to be dating someone who still experiences teen angst?”

You can’t blame a 19 year-old for behaving like a 19 year-old, you know? And if they’re not behaving like one, you’re kinda forcing them to grow-up too fast.

Now matter how mature someone is for their age, a teen is never an actual adult. The “for their age” part tells you the whole story.

And that is what I didn’t like (regardless of how it was actually executed). It’s not the age difference per se, but the fact he was an adult who had gone through *a lot*. He shouldn’t be anywhere near a romantic relationship with someone so young.


---

I must say, I’m impressed by your being critical of Warren. It’s breath of fresh air to talk to a fan who recognizes the mistakes the character they love has made. It’s even more of a breath of fresh air that *no one* is attacking you for saying that or trying to make you stop because this is an appreciation thread.

Personally, I don’t see the ability to be critical as contradictory to being a fan or appreciating a character. Quite the contrary.

So really… This is more meaningful than I can express, but... THANK YOU!

[Grinning Soul]

Anyway, while looking for the dialogue that I posted above, I found this one. [EDITED: from Uncanny X-Men #297]



I can post the rest of the scene with Jean too, if you guys want.

There’s also this quality of goofing around and being supportive.

I really love the O5… :)


--
@Hakka84: thanks for sharing those pictures. They’re gorgeous. :)

[Sutekh]

Shoot, now I miss Ruby Summers and hate the Emma/Toney Stark pairing more than I used to.

There is a website that I once stumbled upon where a long running thread was created for fans to combine powers from existing characters into their children. It had art and everything. I wish that I remembered which site it was so that I could tell you as you seem as though you would like it. Maybe it was uncannyxmen.net. Can't recall for sure though. That thread is likely gone by now regardless of which site, though

I once noodled up a fanfic notion for a group of six young women with mutant powers that suggested their memories were fake and their 'real parents' were various X-folk. The coolest, IMO, was a girl called Wolfpack who had genes from Madrox and Rahne, and could turn into a pack of six wolves, sharing a single mind. (The fic was to be titled 'Sinister's Six' to drop the hint as to their real origin.) And then Rahne got the actual power to turn into multiple wolves and the whole 'mutant chimera' concept came around and I lost interest.

Anywho, back to Warren. I might have missed it, but have he and Bobby had any real discussion since Bobby's coming out? Warren's always been depicted and described as a hottie, and occasionally worn trunkless form-fitting / flattering outfits that seem more overtly sexy than what other male X-Men wear. It would seem in-character for him to generally be *aware* of when he's being 'checked out,' and he and Bobby spent years being good friends, fluttering around to teams like the Champions and Defenders together, so, 'always gay' Bobby should logically at least noticed Warren, and Warren probably have noticed his best friend 'checking him out' at some point. It seems like there's potential for something here. Maybe not drama, since they are both grown-ass men at this point, but at least some awkwardness?

It would certainly paint Warren in different lights if; A) he was a bit clueless and / or self-absorbed, wrapped up in dramatic life events of his own at the time to notice that Bobby was noticing him, maybe because 'of course he was, I'm just that sexy, even dudes are into me!', B) he noticed and felt that Bobby would figure out his own **** in his own time, got no time or psych experience or enough emotional maturity himself yet to try to talk Bobby through his own identity/awakening, C) he noticed and kinda liked it, cause he's got that sort of ego that *likes* to be 'checked out', even if it's by someone he's not interested in?

[Thievery]

I didn't mean that it would be undone like it never happened only that it won't last forever and doesn't mean that Warren and Betsy can never happen again. Other writers I don't see them suddenly wanting to write Betsy and Rachel as a couple...

Steve Foxe likes them and wants to write about Betsy/Rachel. I think that Orlando does also. So that's at least two people who want to write about them. It's not hard to guess that there are probably more.
You and I don't like Betsy/Rachel, but there are plenty of readers away from this thread that do.

I do stuff like that all the time. In real life, with 3D objects right in front of my nose. So don’t worry, you get no judgement from me!





Oh, no. He does spell it out.

From Uncanny X-Men #306: "If I was the guy you were in love with -- I'd have asked you to marry me the day we graduated Xavier's."



It’s one of the things I *love* about Warren. It’s that combination of being brave and impetuous.

Being eighteen and in love? Marry the girl! No problem.

Surely, by that scene alone, you could argue he wasn’t being literal, but if you consider the body of evidence, I’d argue he was. Plus, Jean seemed to have understood he meant it too.





Exactly. When they moved back to the mansion, not only they removed Warren from New York, they increased the cast by a lot. Both Hank and Bobby also had non X-Men girlfriends. I can imagine it was hard to manage.

That being said, they could have given them a better break-up for sure. I’ll never argue against that.





I agree with the contrast being interesting. But, again, my problem was with the execution.

As for the age difference… With the sliding timescale, one of those days, Warren would have to be younger than Paige so the O5 don’t reach 30.

I don’t know what the X-Office imagine happens to heroes when they reach 30. It’s like they believe the human body, if super powered, disintegrates, or something.

Seriously, though, let’s look at it from the perspective of the time.

Personally, I saw the O5 already nearing 30 in the 90s. So there would be about 8-11 years of difference between Warren and Paige.

It’s not that crazy. The problem was not the difference, though. If she was in her 30s and he was in his 40s, it’d be totally fine.

But she was still a teen. So, for me, it was more like, “Come on, Warren. Do you want to be dating someone who still experiences teen angst?”

You can’t blame a 19 year-old for behaving like a 19 year-old, you know? And if they’re not behaving like one, you’re kinda forcing them to grow-up too fast.

Now matter how mature someone is for their age, a teen is never an actual adult. The “for their age” part tells you the whole story.

And that is what I didn’t like (regardless of how it was actually executed). It’s not the age difference per se, but the fact he was an adult who had gone through *a lot*. He shouldn’t be anywhere near a romantic relationship with someone so young.


---

I must say, I’m impressed by your being critical of Warren. It’s breath of fresh air to talk to a fan who recognizes the mistakes the character they love has made. It’s even more of a breath of fresh air that *no one* is attacking you for saying that or trying to make you stop because this is an appreciation thread.

Personally, I don’t see the ability to be critical as contradictory to being a fan or appreciating a character. Quite the contrary.

So really… This is more meaningful than I can express, but... THANK YOU!

I forgot about some of the conversation between Warren/Jean in that issue. Jean has always been aware that Warren had been in love with her. She knew about it back in the 1960's issues. Warren just eventually moves on during the 90's because he realizes that he wouldn't even be Jean's second choice.

During the romance with Paige, Angel is meant to be 27 years old, Paige is meant to be 19. The age difference between a 27 year old and a 19 year old didn't bother me that much. I've seen it happen more than once in real life, and it's always worked in those instances. Obviously it's failed in others that I haven't seen.

This thread has always been good at critisising Angel.
Other week points that have been discussed are Warren's short temper.
One big flaw that used to be talked about was his lack of self-awareness. When he was younger he lacked the self-awareness to realize that he didn't always live up to the standards of a superhero that he set for others. After becoming a Horseman and being corrupted by Apocalypse he lacked the sel-awareness to see that he still had value as a person.
Angel's appreciation threads have died down during Krakoa because he doesn't do much these days. Most of the people who used to post in his threads don't stop by often these days. We used to have a member named Izanami who used to post frequently. She was really good at spotting Angel's flaws and coming up with story ideas for Angel. She and Hakka84 would have gotten along well, I think.

[Thievery]

I once noodled up a fanfic notion for a group of six young women with mutant powers that suggested their memories were fake and their 'real parents' were various X-folk. The coolest, IMO, was a girl called Wolfpack who had genes from Madrox and Rahne, and could turn into a pack of six wolves, sharing a single mind. (The fic was to be titled 'Sinister's Six' to drop the hint as to their real origin.) And then Rahne got the actual power to turn into multiple wolves and the whole 'mutant chimera' concept came around and I lost interest.

Anywho, back to Warren. I might have missed it, but have he and Bobby had any real discussion since Bobby's coming out? Warren's always been depicted and described as a hottie, and occasionally worn trunkless form-fitting / flattering outfits that seem more overtly sexy than what other male X-Men wear. It would seem in-character for him to generally be *aware* of when he's being 'checked out,' and he and Bobby spent years being good friends, fluttering around to teams like the Champions and Defenders together, so, 'always gay' Bobby should logically at least noticed Warren, and Warren probably have noticed his best friend 'checking him out' at some point. It seems like there's potential for something here. Maybe not drama, since they are both grown-ass men at this point, but at least some awkwardness?

It would certainly paint Warren in different lights if; A) he was a bit clueless and / or self-absorbed, wrapped up in dramatic life events of his own at the time to notice that Bobby was noticing him, maybe because 'of course he was, I'm just that sexy, even dudes are into me!', B) he noticed and felt that Bobby would figure out his own **** in his own time, got no time or psych experience or enough emotional maturity himself yet to try to talk Bobby through his own identity/awakening, C) he noticed and kinda liked it, cause he's got that sort of ego that *likes* to be 'checked out', even if it's by someone he's not interested in?

I have to run so I can only response once quickly before I bail.

I would assume that Warren just didn't notice that Bobby was gay. It doesn't say much good about Angel, but in fairness most of the others didn't either, including Northstar. The character that I would think would notice is Beast. Cannon wise they are supposed to be great friends. Jean and maybe Lady Mastermind are the only characters that I see any proof of possibly knowing.

Warren and Bobby have only talked about Bobby's sexuality once that I'm aware of. And they don't actually talk about it directly. It happens in Grace's monthly Iceman comic. Off panel Teen Angel from the past tells adult Warren that Bobby thinks that he is hot. In one issue Angel jokingly asks Iceman if being around him makes Bobby uncomfortable. Bobby jokingly tells Warren that he only likes him when he is blue. Otherwise it isn't even brought up. The two of them just sort of go about being friends.

If you want to see more of this it happens in Grace's monthly Iceman comic. I liked it, but I'm not a very big Iceman fan so my judgement may be faulty, as I've just never gotten the appeal of the character. I know of big Iceman fans who don't like the Iceman comic by Grace at all. So take any recommendation about Iceman stories fro me with some caution.

[Grinning Soul]

I forgot about some of the conversation between Warren/Jean in that issue. Jean has always been aware that Warren had been in love with her. She knew about it back in the 1960's issues. Warren just eventually moves on during the 90's because he realizes that he wouldn't even be Jean's second choice.

I think it’s fair to say he only started the relationship with Candy because back then he had already realized Jean was in love with Scott.

But in the 90s, I don’t think it was his belief that he would not be her second choice that was the actual reason he’s moved on. (A belief, by the way, he might have had, but I’d argue is erroneous exactly because of what she says in that same dialogue -- “And if you were the guy I was in love with, I would have said yes.”).

I think Warren *needed* to move on so there would be no internal conflict in his heart. So he could be 100% happy for both Jean and Scott.

If he wouldn’t move on, a part of him would always wish Scott and Jean would break-up (I suppose “wish” is a strong word, let’s say “be in the lookout”).

It was one thing to have this conflict while Scott and Jean were boyfriend and girlfriend. But it was another thing to keep this “hope” alive once they got married. Both of them were his best friends, and he wanted them to be happy together.

By the way, this is yet *another* thing I love about Warren. He carried that torch for Jean until the 90s, but he kept it to himself. He didn’t make her life a living hell, by constantly pestering her. He didn’t purposely distressed and confused her so she would break up with Scott.

That, for me, is *real* love.

[And it doesn’t even need to be romantic love, by the way.]

If you really love someone, you take their needs and feelings into consideration. You don’t harm them on purpose, *even* when you can profit from it.

--

Anyway, I posted those panels just to show that one could argue that it’s canon that even as a teenager, Warren already saw marriage as something he wanted for his life.

And that’s why I mentioned Jean and Candy in a previous post (because both were romantic interests of his teenage years).

During the romance with Paige, Angel is meant to be 27 years old, Paige is meant to be 19. The age difference between a 27 year old and a 19 year old didn't bother me that much. I've seen it happen more than once in real life, and it's always worked in those instances. Obviously it's failed in others that I haven't seen.

Yes, 8 years apart is within that range I thought they might be.

It’s really not the number that bothers me. It’s more about the difference between an adult and a teenager. If they were both adults, the difference could be 20 or 30 years and I’d be okay with it.

This thread has always been good at critisising Angel.
Other week points that have been discussed are Warren's short temper.

Right? I love him *because* he has a short temper. If I point it out it is not because I hate him.

Sure, sometimes I want to bitch-slap him for the stuff he does because of his short temper. But DD is my *favourite* Marvel character. Do you have any idea on how many times I’ve wanted to slap Matt Murdock? :D

My personality is so similar to Scott Summers’ that I experience real embarrassment reading him sometimes (that feeling of face-palming, shaking your head and thinking, "F***! I could have done the very same idiotic thing!”). You *bet* I often want to slap him too. And he’s another favourite of mine.

For me, wanting to slap a favorite character is almost like giving them a badge of honour! :D

I jest, but I guess you got the point. :D

One big flaw that used to be talked about was his lack of self-awareness. When he was younger he lacked the self-awareness to realize that he didn't always live up to the standards of a superhero that he set for others. After becoming a Horseman and being corrupted by Apocalypse he lacked the sel-awareness to see that he still had value as a person.

Yes. And it’s understandable that he would lack this self-awareness.

Again, pointing it out doesn’t mean you aren’t a fan.

One of the things that I love the most about the X-Factor is that often the characters are unfair to each other. Given what was going on in their lives, it feels real to me.

It doesn’t make them horrible people. It just makes them human. :)

Angel's appreciation threads have died down during Krakoa because he doesn't do much these days. Most of the people who used to post in his threads don't stop by often these days. We used to have a member named Izanami who used to post frequently. She was really good at spotting Angel's flaws and coming up with story ideas for Angel. She and Hakka84 would have gotten along well, I think.

Oh, what a shame she doesn’t post anymore.

I’m a woman too and, although most of my real-life friends are men, I’d like if more women were into Marvel comics.

Anyway, Thievery, you might not remember but I did post here around the time they were releasing X-Corp. We even exchanged some posts.

[Hakka84]

How alive is this topic, especially if we consider the subject is actually dead with no future return on sight! I'm delighted!

And that is what I didn’t like (regardless of how it was actually executed). It’s not the age difference per se, but the fact he was an adult who had gone through *a lot*. He shouldn’t be anywhere near a romantic relationship with someone so young.

I think this summarise what was wrong with the pair.
I don't hate it in itself. I wasn't much knowledgeable on Gen-X so it was easy to overlook that she was barely of age. And during their time together, Paige isn't portrayed as too much teen-acting. So on paper it worked. It was when you started to look more into it, that the pair made no sense. Not much because of Paige (Warren is hunky, she's young and has just come out of a relationship with Chamber - Warren is opposite to Chamber, has a more open nature, he's not much expansive but he's a different kind of reserved than Chamber, he seems to care about people, and he's mature - it makes sense that she would be drawn to him). But because of Warren: with hindsight Warren had no reason to be drawn to Paige. Literally none. Perhaps he needed someone gentle that seemed to care about him (he was mourning Betsy, I'd argue he wasn't in his "sane" mind) and Paige was reaching out. An example of "right moment, right place"?
As you pointed out, he's gone trough a lot, too much, to not want to stay with a "grown-up" woman.
Unless he was 40y and he was in his middle-life crisis. XD
Isn't it ironic that she's the only one from whom he drifted away/broke up with no drama?
(I know, it happened off panel, but in Way of X there was that nice hint from Paige who was worried about Warren, suggesting she still cares for him)

That Hank/Warren issue was fresh air indeed. I miss those comics. Not only power feats but human relations and people needing to vent or express their inner turmoil. And friends ready to listen to them and help them.

@Sutekh
As a Warren fan, I'd actually suggest the Iceman issues with him. It was a two-issue arch about the Champions. Iceman (20177) #6/#7.
It's hard to retroactively place Bobby's gayness into the canon and not go "were all of his friends idiotic to not notice?!"
I think Warren, especially teen/pre-X-Factor was so self-absorbed that he wouldn't question a man checking him out (he would be used to, guys checking him out either of jealousy or envy). Besides, I think Bobby would've learned fairly quick to place Warren under the "friend, not sex material" list. This if Bobby was aware of his true sexuality - I think he heavily suppressed it, so perhaps he did check out Warren once in a while but explained his interest in "jealous of Warren, he gets all the girls, look at how girls flock to him while nobody bothers with old Bobby Drake).
Still, there would be plenty of unexplored potential (the pair has a small niche in the slash/fanfiction world). I fear the potential would work only in nostaglia/First Class-set stories, though. The ship has sailed - they should've explored in the first years after the coming out. It's sad that they didn't - with the status of the present!O5 at the times (Scott "terrorist", Hank auto-exiled from the X-Men, Jean dead, Warren's status hazy at best) there wasn't much room for it though.

I think it’s fair to say he only started the relationship with Candy because back then he had already realized Jean was in love with Scott.

Warren bumped into Candy (Silver Age X-Men) the very day he decided he was time to move on from his crush on Jean.
He had a regression(?) during X-Factor, because of the circumstances that opened up for a "what if", but I'm not sure he would've had the guts to make a move even if Jean showed to not be in love with Scott anymore.
(or it might be my romantic side that doesn't want to admit Warren would ditch X-Factor!era Candy for Jean)
But there's no argue that his love for Jean was still there and - I'd dare say - will always be there. He will always love her, but know that Jean's heart belongs to someone else, and he's fine with their friendships.

Wear the second shirt with pride at least once to a comic shop or convention. You can put it in storage afterwards.

I don't go to shops or conventions anymore. My last convention in Milan was literally a lifetime ago, around 2012 I think. And the comic shop I used to buy from closed up ten years ago.

[Hakka84]

Sorry, double post.

I didn't mean that it would be undone like it never happened only that it won't last forever and doesn't mean that Warren and Betsy can never happen again. Other writers I don't see them suddenly wanting to write Betsy and Rachel as a couple...

Steve Foxe likes them and wants to write about Betsy/Rachel. I think that Orlando does also. So that's at least two people who want to write about them. It's not hard to guess that there are probably more.
You and I don't like Betsy/Rachel, but there are plenty of readers away from this thread that do.

If we were talking about any other male character paired with Betsy, I'd agree with you, LoganAlpha30X33. Warren/Betsy have been one of the major romantic couple of the X-Men. Major/long-lasting pairs (like Scott/Jean) eventually drift back together in comics.

But.

Breaking up Betsy and Rachel would be met with accusations of bi-erasure, or queer-erasure. Marvel now has their X-Men queer couple (which should have brought them queer readers and and fans who like wlw[WomenLoveWomen] stories), a token queer pair that doesn't touch "major characters" that they didn't have the courage to canon confirm as queer (see, Shadowcat and Ilyana). Marvel can pat themselves on the back because they're inclusive. They won't back down from that just to appease "nostalgic" fans of the Angel and Psylocke.
They erased the whole ninja!Psylocke portion of Betsy's life, Tini Howard basically took 80s Betsy and avoided most of the growth and drama Betsy had since the Siege Perilous, and Warren is too tied to ninja!Psylocke.
It pains me to admit it, but I don't see them ever bring the pair back. We're lucky that Rachel is a Multiverse unicum, else in any AU from now on we would get AU!Betsy with Askani.

I know that this will upset some people, but now I for sure want to see some interaction with Warren/Kwannon. Couple preferably, but I'll accept friends.
It might remind some of how Scott hooked up with Maddie Pryor because she looked like Jean, but I think that the body swap, mixed genes, and possible personality swaps mitigate that a little.

*shivers*
If I trusted the authors, and the authors had the chance to still write comics with heavy psychological content/analysis, I'd want it, actually. I do want to know how Kwannon feels about the long-lasting romance Betsy had while in her body. And how Warren feels about seeing the woman who he "physically" loved, but who isn't the person he actually loved because the spirit/soul belongs to another woman he doesn't know in the least.
Kwannon and Warren have nothing in common - I think the only one they might have in common is that they were both manipulated. Which was what drew Warren and Betsy, but they had the same background as well. Has Kwannon kept any memory of lingering feeling from when she was inside/merged with Betsy? Is she curious about Warren and what about him that drew Betsy? Does she keep her distance because she fears that she might be drawn to Warren as well and she doesn't want another Betsy's hand-me-down? Does she care about Warren in the least or he's a complete stranger to her?
She took Psylocke's name as a payback (and kept the costume), why wouldn't she want to steal Warren in a "I took everything from you as you took everything from me"? There's place for a series (well, there was, in the early Krakoa era) with Kwannon trying to seduce/take Warren. Warren confused by his own feelings and fought over by these two strong-willed women and not knowing what he wants from him (bonus point if he''s still conflicted because of Disassembled). What about Kwannon's moves on Warren would be caused by her need to get back at betsy and what about a lingering feeling she doesn't know it exists? So Kwannon would grow confused as well, unable to tell if she is actually drawn to Warren or not. And Betsy herself could analyse her feelings, and if the new Betsy has a place in her life for the Warren (with his Archangel drama).
Chances are actually limitless.

TH's Queen Elizabeth AU actually intrigued me (well, once I grieved on what I expected from that AU that TH promised and what we didn't get). I wonder how Kwannon and Warren came to romance and date, how they fared, how they worked so much as to marry. And why they divorced, if Warren's eye was drawn to Queen Elizabeth and he philandered, or if the couple broke on its own and Warren met Elizabeth after he was divorced. Or Kwannon and Warren as married couple had already issues and Elizabeth was the breaking point.


OT Edit: Not sure if it came out, but woman here as well.

[Grinning Soul]

I think this summarise what was wrong with the pair.
I don't hate it in itself. I wasn't much knowledgeable on Gen-X so it was easy to overlook that she was barely of age. And during their time together, Paige isn't portrayed as too much teen-acting. So on paper it worked.
It was when you started to look more into it, that the pair made no sense. Not much because of Paige (Warren is hunky, she's young and has just come out of a relationship with Chamber - Warren is opposite to Chamber, has a more open nature, he's not much expansive but he's a different kind of reserved than Chamber, he seems to care about people, and he's mature - it makes sense that she would be drawn to him).

Yeah. She was 19. It’s totally understandable she’d be into him.

Most girls of that age dream of dating actors, singers, athletes… Put one of those guys they dream about in front of them and they’ll be making their wedding plans.

And that’s why I wish it hadn’t happened. It’s not the age difference itself. It’s the difference in the stages of life. There’s a world in between a child and a teenager. And another between a teenager and an adult.

But because of Warren: with hindsight Warren had no reason to be drawn to Paige. Literally none. Perhaps he needed someone gentle that seemed to care about him (he was mourning Betsy, I'd argue he wasn't in his "sane" mind) and Paige was reaching out. An example of "right moment, right place"?

Yes. That’s pretty much how I see it too, but it’s more of a feeling. I don’t think there’s strong evidence to support it.

As you pointed out, he's gone trough a lot, too much, to not want to stay with a "grown-up" woman.
Unless he was 40y and he was in his middle-life crisis. XD
Isn't it ironic that she's the only one from whom he drifted away/broke up with no drama?
(I know, it happened off panel, but in Way of X there was that nice hint from Paige who was worried about Warren, suggesting she still cares for him)

In my headcanon, he still cares for her too. Not romantically, but a strong endearment and gratitude, you know?

That Hank/Warren issue was fresh air indeed. I miss those comics. Not only power feats but human relations and people needing to vent or express their inner turmoil. And friends ready to listen to them and help them.

Me too, my friend. Me too.

Warren bumped into Candy (Silver Age X-Men) the very day he decided he was time to move on from his crush on Jean.

Plenty of fish in the sea.” Or something to that effect, right?

Oh, our impulsive, impatient boy. :)

He had a regression(?) during X-Factor, because of the circumstances that opened up for a "what if", but I'm not sure he would've had the guts to make a move even if Jean showed to not be in love with Scott anymore.
(or it might be my romantic side that doesn't want to admit Warren would ditch X-Factor!era Candy for Jean)

You know? I’m torn here. I liked Candy so I’d have also preferred if he wouldn’t.

Also, like I mentioned, most of my friends are men and we don’t have many heterosexual female and male friendships that remain friendships in fiction. Part of me just wishes there was.

So, on one hand I wish that they’d never become a couple. On another hand, I love *both* of them so much, I feel selfish for wishing that, because I know they’d be good for each other.

For starters, they already love each other. It’s just a matter of sparking the romantic feelings on her and re-sparking (?) them on him. How hard can that be? They’re *both* scorching hot. Get that sexual part going, and the romance will follow (again, they already *love* each other).

But it takes more to be a couple, right?

I wrote once a fanfiction (they were not a couple there either) that happened after DAS. Jean comes back, AvX never happens, she restores Warren’s psyche from the erasure/rewrite of the Life Seed.

He asks her how she copes with the knowledge of what she’s done and she tells him she does that one day at a time.

He says he doesn’t know if he can do it. What he had done was worse than what she did, because even though neither of them were exactly themselves, she didn’t kill on purpose.

She asks something like, “What is worse? Unintended genocide that kills billions or intended one that kills thousands?”

I mean… You can’t have this kind of conversation with many people, can you? And not many people can truly understand what it’s like to be as heroic as it gets while having done what they did.

Another thing they have in common is that simply being an X-Men doesn’t seem to do for either of them. They started X-Factor together. She tried the UN stuff on X-Men: Red (the original one). He was involved in initiatives like Mutantes Sans Frontières, Wings Over the World and even the X-Corp.

Anyway, back to if Warren would have left Candy… It could go either way, but if we based ourselves on certain hints, I’d say he would.

During the DPS, Jean kisses Warren and Candy doesn’t bat an eye (neither does Scott), but she was really jealous during the X-Factor stuff.

Now, you and I know this kind of mismatch happens in comics because you have different writers, but in-story, those characters are supposed to be the same people, right?

So, we could argue Candy felt he was *really* spellbound for Jean again, probably because there was a significant chance she and Scott would break-up (since he was even married already) during the X-Factor period, but *not* during the DPS.

Another clue is the fact that even though he was in a relationship with Candy all those years, he was still carrying a torch for Jean.

And this is not written anywhere, but people seem to forget that Warren had also lost Jean. He really thought she was dead and he’d never see her again. That must have an effect too. The kind of feeling of, “I thought you were dead. I thought I’d never have a chance with you again. Now you’re back and I’ll be damned, but I’m not making the same mistake.”

I mean… it’s Warren…

But there's no argue that his love for Jean was still there and - I'd dare say - will always be there. He will always love her, but know that Jean's heart belongs to someone else, and he's fine with their friendships.

But here’s the thing. She *also* loves him. Deeply. It’s not romantic love on her part, but she’ll always love him too.

And I love their love. It’s pure, beautiful and comfy.

You know how ridiculous I was as a teenager. You can blackmail me not to reveal the most embarrassing parts to the world. You scream at me, I’ll give you some tough love. Then we’ll go fly,and goof around together. Then we’ll go back to the world and pretend to be our dignified selves. And which problem of the world are we tackling together today? Simply decide what must be done and go for it. Spend some millions trying. Get it wrong, insist until we get it right.

It’s precious. :)

OT Edit: Not sure if it came out, but woman here as well. :)

No, it didn’t (but I never assume anyway). But yay! :D

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Sorry, double post.



If we were talking about any other male character paired with Betsy, I'd agree with you, LoganAlpha30X33. Warren/Betsy have been one of the major romantic couple of the X-Men. Major/long-lasting pairs (like Scott/Jean) eventually drift back together in comics.

But.

Breaking up Betsy and Rachel would be met with accusations of bi-erasure, or queer-erasure. Marvel now has their X-Men queer couple (which should have brought them queer readers and and fans who like wlw[WomenLoveWomen] stories), a token queer pair that doesn't touch "major characters" that they didn't have the courage to canon confirm as queer (see, Shadowcat and Ilyana). Marvel can pat themselves on the back because they're inclusive. They won't back down from that just to appease "nostalgic" fans of the Angel and Psylocke.
They erased the whole ninja!Psylocke portion of Betsy's life, Tini Howard basically took 80s Betsy and avoided most of the growth and drama Betsy had since the Siege Perilous, and Warren is too tied to ninja!Psylocke.
It pains me to admit it, but I don't see them ever bring the pair back. We're lucky that Rachel is a Multiverse unicum, else in any AU from now on we would get AU!Betsy with Askani.


*shivers*
If I trusted the authors, and the authors had the chance to still write comics with heavy psychological content/analysis, I'd want it, actually. I do want to know how Kwannon feels about the long-lasting romance Betsy had while in her body. And how Warren feels about seeing the woman who he "physically" loved, but who isn't the person he actually loved because the spirit/soul belongs to another woman he doesn't know in the least.
Kwannon and Warren have nothing in common - I think the only one they might have in common is that they were both manipulated. Which was what drew Warren and Betsy, but they had the same background as well. Has Kwannon kept any memory of lingering feeling from when she was inside/merged with Betsy? Is she curious about Warren and what about him that drew Betsy? Does she keep her distance because she fears that she might be drawn to Warren as well and she doesn't want another Betsy's hand-me-down? Does she care about Warren in the least or he's a complete stranger to her?
She took Psylocke's name as a payback (and kept the costume), why wouldn't she want to steal Warren in a "I took everything from you as you took everything from me"? There's place for a series (well, there was, in the early Krakoa era) with Kwannon trying to seduce/take Warren. Warren confused by his own feelings and fought over by these two strong-willed women and not knowing what he wants from him (bonus point if he''s still conflicted because of Disassembled). What about Kwannon's moves on Warren would be caused by her need to get back at betsy and what about a lingering feeling she doesn't know it exists? So Kwannon would grow confused as well, unable to tell if she is actually drawn to Warren or not. And Betsy herself could analyse her feelings, and if the new Betsy has a place in her life for the Warren (with his Archangel drama).
Chances are actually limitless.

TH's Queen Elizabeth AU actually intrigued me (well, once I grieved on what I expected from that AU that TH promised and what we didn't get). I wonder how Kwannon and Warren came to romance and date, how they fared, how they worked so much as to marry. And why they divorced, if Warren's eye was drawn to Queen Elizabeth and he philandered, or if the couple broke on its own and Warren met Elizabeth after he was divorced. Or Kwannon and Warren as married couple had already issues and Elizabeth was the breaking point.


OT Edit: Not sure if it came out, but woman here as well.

I don't agree with your predictions at all, don't Mystique and Destiny count, and when Rictor and Shatterstar split the sky didn't fall so Betsy and Rachel will split up, the question is when.

[marhawkman]

I always like the notion of finding ways in which mutant pairings can have powers synergize in their kids. Not like 'Scott and Jean have a kid, and it's a telepath / telekinetic like mom and gets bupkiss from dad.' More like 'Scott and Emma have a kid, and she turns to ruby crystal like mom *and* fires blasts like dad.'

Mixing Angel's wings with Kwannon's DNA (since he was dating her body, not Betsy's body) could lead to someone very much like DC's Dawnstar, with winged flight and a psychic tracking sense. Not necessarily a full-blown telepath, like Betsy, but more similar to whatever 'psychic sensitive' abilities Kwannon had pre-body-swap with Betsy.

Then again, maybe avoid the Dawnstar riff, and just make a child of Warren and Betsy able to create wings of psychic energy, allowing them to fly at superhuman speed, wrap themselves up in them as a defense, or lash out with them for powerful telekinetic blows, or make them ethereal and telepathic in nature so that they cloak the mind, allow astral 'flight' or can sweep through people like a psychic arrow attack from Moonstar or psychic knife attack from Psylocke. Maybe even make pink energy 'feather knives' that fly out from the psychic wings and inflict psychic damage on people at range?

Well, if we use the idea that glowing Angel was a secondary mutation, having a kid with that mixed with psionic powers? Wooo boy, in that form Warren was able to give Wolverine a smack down. A kid who has that as the default power level? oh my.

[BobbysWorld]

I was doing a thread on twitter today about the fact that they never really went back to the precog ban as a plot point and as is, the entire era came and went without the QC ever having to deal with political fallout from the reveal that they disenfranchised an entire subset of mutants based on them having a power that was politically inconvenient for them as it could shake faith in Krakoa's viability and potential to survive threats set against it....that Irene and Raven never leveraged the fact that the founders conspired to keep Irene from resurrecting and similarly banned all other precogs access to resurrection and the same rights/resources other mutants enjoyed even while using 'Krakoa is for ALL mutants, even the villains' as a selling point to get mutants to join their new nation....ugh. Such a waste.

BUT my point and why I posted here is it got me thinking about the Apocalypse Twins, who I know at least Hakka liked and wanted back, and it made me weep for the missed potential to give Warren a really meaty storyline this era. Imagine if he was torn about the twins' existence and whether or not he even considered himself their father, given everything about how they came to be and the fact that he wasn't really himself at the time but still is nevertheless definitely their biological parent....but given that he definitely can identify with the feeling of being groomed or manipulated by a supervillain into becoming a version of yourself you never would have chosen to be on your own, and seeing this as his window into relating to them and feeling a sense of kinship with them....he starts to think about the possibility of using resurrection to bring them back as infants at least and give them the opportunity to grow up into whomever they might have become if Kang hadn't gotten his hands on them and groomed them into becoming the young adults we knew them as.

Anyway, imagine if he were to take his thoughts to his one-time mentor Professor Xavier, one of the only people who could even authorize this resurrection in the first place, to ask him his advice as to what he should do and if what he's thinking of here is even viable....and Xavier discouraged him from pursuing this and said while understandable, its probably best he move on and try not to consider himself responsible for the Twins and their ultimate fate.

BUT....consider then, if post-Inferno, once Destiny was resurrected and the precog ban was lifted as there was no longer a point to enforcing it on the rest as long as Irene was already back.....say Warren finds out that the precog ban ever actually existed in the first place, from one of his friends on the QC like Kurt, Ororo or even via someone like Shaw, Mystique or Sinister leaking that tidbit to Warren for their own reasons.....

And he reflects on Xavier pushing him to let his idea about resurrecting the Twins go....in light of the added context that Xavier was one of the ones enforcing no precogs on Krakoa....and the fact that Xavier and everyone else knew that as an adult, Warren's daughter Eimin....was a precog.

Like imagine the potential schism if Warren felt betrayed because he now questioned Xavier's motives when advising him not to try and resurrect the twins, one of whom had a precognition power.....and sides ended up drawn after he airs this publicly and some of his friends like Bobby are like hell no, this was messed up on so many levels, while others like Hank are like blah blah the security of the nation was at stake, sacrifices had to be made and they were villains and hardly ideal resurrection candidates in the first place....

Etc, etc. Point being, it'd give Warren a very reasonable - and sympathetic - motivation for pushing himself more into the Krakoan political sphere and trying to gain allies there and affect change because he's so upset by this betrayal of not just a lot of their values and what they claimed to stand for, but of him personally, after everything he's done for the dream and the X-Men and mutants in general for most of his life.