Mr. & Mrs. X: The Gambit and Rogue Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

Nope. Owen and Priscilla never get a last name.

Rogue takes the last name "Raven" for her alias in X-Treme X-Men because it was Mystique's name. It's interesting that she doesn't take Darkholme.

Owen just up and disappeared at the end of that solo series, dumping Anna Marie on Aunt Carrie.

Personally I need resolution on this mess. LOL

Isn't she also Anna Marie Raven in X-Men Forever? I think the idea Claremont had is that Raven was Mystique's last name during her time as Eric Raven. There were some possible hints that Mystique was born male and could be considered trans. Eric Raven was her deadname and in her true form as a woman and blue, she would just use her surname as her new name. However, she also kept Raven as the family name for Rogue to take on.

[smokey78]

Remind me which issue that's from?



I want that entire story retconned into a hallucination. It was terrible.

I believe it was from Proactive Sports with Joe Montana on the cover? I used to have that issue. At one point I had every issue Romy was in except the Igor Korvey Xtreme Xmen ones when they were a couple w/ no powers. Even if they did sexy loving times like Rogue in a nightie, jump/wrap legs around Remy, and poetry reading, the illustration was so miss for me.
Well just about every issue, I recall asking here about that nighttime Romy page where Rogue walks past him, and had No idea where it was from, it was from a Spider Man issue!

[AppleJ]

Isn't she also Anna Marie Raven in X-Men Forever? I think the idea Claremont had is that Raven was Mystique's last name during her time as Eric Raven. There were some possible hints that Mystique was born male and could be considered trans. Eric Raven was her deadname and in her true form as a woman and blue, she would just use her surname as her new name. However, she also kept Raven as the family name for Rogue to take on.

You could very well be correct. It's been a zillion years since I tried to read X-Men Forever since I was mainly there for the Romy and that never really panned out in that book

[whitecrown]

You could very well be correct. It's been a zillion years since I tried to read X-Men Forever since I was mainly there for the Romy and that never really panned out in that book

Here in the opening page, he named her Anna Marie Raven. And Gambit I remember got a new last name with Picard. X-Men Forever was mostly focused on establishing Kitty and Remy as love interests and since young 'Ro was close to both of them, CC wanted to make this trio a family of their own. I know that was his original plan in the 90s, back when Remy was really Sinister and would try and corrupt the young X-Men in order to influence the next generation of leaders, hence why he targeted Kitty and 'Ro. Even then, I assumed CC would have done more with Rogue and Remy as a couple since he had no problem with them in X-Treme X-Men and other books.

[Nox Noctes]

I believe it was from Proactive Sports with Joe Montana on the cover? I used to have that issue. At one point I had every issue Romy was in except the Igor Korvey Xtreme Xmen ones when they were a couple w/ no powers. Even if they did sexy loving times like Rogue in a nightie, jump/wrap legs around Remy, and poetry reading, the illustration was so miss for me.
Well just about every issue, I recall asking here about that nighttime Romy page where Rogue walks past him, and had No idea where it was from, it was from a Spider Man issue!

Oh yeah. The art from X-treme went from pretty good (Larroca drew Gambit well, I thought) to unbearably bad. I also didn't like Rogue's look (i.e. the tattoos...and her outfit too, if I recall correctly) by Kordey. A real letdown since I really loved the Larroca issues.

[AppleJ]

Here in the opening page, he named her Anna Marie Raven. And Gambit I remember got a new last name with Picard. X-Men Forever was mostly focused on establishing Kitty and Remy as love interests and since young 'Ro was close to both of them, CC wanted to make this trio a family of their own. I know that was his original plan in the 90s, back when Remy was really Sinister and would try and corrupt the young X-Men in order to influence the next generation of leaders, hence why he targeted Kitty and 'Ro. Even then, I assumed CC would have done more with Rogue and Remy as a couple since he had no problem with them in X-Treme X-Men and other books.

Yeah ... I can't say I was at all into that plot. Strangely I probably wouldn't even be an X-Men fan if CC had stayed on and gotten his way. Gambit and Kitty felt very icky as a pairing to me and I really didn't like Gambit as Sinister's clone either. Rogue & Gambit and their complicated romance brought me to X-Men and kept me here. So I guess what I'm saying is thank the stars for Jim Lee interfering and Claremont not getting his way. It's funny, because he wrote them very well in X-Treme X-Men & The End as a couple.

[whitecrown]

Yeah ... I can't say I was at all into that plot. Strangely I probably wouldn't even be an X-Men fan if CC had stayed on and gotten his way. Gambit and Kitty felt very icky as a pairing to me and I really didn't like Gambit as Sinister's clone either. Rogue & Gambit and their complicated romance brought me to X-Men and kept me here. So I guess what I'm saying is thank the stars for Jim Lee interfering and Claremont not getting his way. It's funny, because he wrote them very well in X-Treme X-Men & The End as a couple.

I know Gambit was supposed to reform even in his original plans and in some versions, Claremont has talked about how it's because Gambit fell in love with Rogue. So I don't know if he was saying that because he planned on Gambit ending up with Rogue after all or if it's because Claremont knew people wouldn't understand him referencing Gambit/Kitty as a couple since Rogue/Gambit were the established pairing.

I think outside of his original plans, he does care about Rogue/Gambit as a pairing because he wrote them so well and utilized them regularly. If he hadn't liked them together, he would have broken them up like he did with Angel and Psylocke.

[K7P5V]

At one point I had every issue Romy was in except the Igor Korvey Xtreme Xmen ones when they were a couple w/ no powers. Even if they did sexy loving times like Rogue in a nightie, jump/wrap legs around Remy, and poetry reading, the illustration was so miss for me.

Oh yeah. The art from X-treme went from pretty good (Larroca drew Gambit well, I thought) to unbearably bad. I also didn't like Rogue's look (i.e. the tattoos...and her outfit too, if I recall correctly) by Kordey. A real letdown since I really loved the Larroca issues.

I know, right?! I've heard some defend his work, though. When not being rushed & if given enough time, then he'd be phenomenal...

[From The Shadows]

Here in the opening page, he named her Anna Marie Raven. And Gambit I remember got a new last name with Picard. X-Men Forever was mostly focused on establishing Kitty and Remy as love interests and since young 'Ro was close to both of them, CC wanted to make this trio a family of their own. I know that was his original plan in the 90s, back when Remy was really Sinister and would try and corrupt the young X-Men in order to influence the next generation of leaders, hence why he targeted Kitty and 'Ro. Even then, I assumed CC would have done more with Rogue and Remy as a couple since he had no problem with them in X-Treme X-Men and other books.

I know many people hated Claremont's 'Forever' but I enjoyed a lot of it. I loved the power switch between Rogue and Nightcrawler. Not just because I found how they dealt with their new situations entertaining but it and gave Kurt and Anna some good bonding moments.

And there is this moment, albeit cheesy. The proud, loving mama is not going to be something we will see now I don't think. Even after X-Men Blue, though redeemed a bit, at least to the writers, I can't see Raven being this way.

LOL.



Anyway, back to Gambit/Rogue

[whitecrown]

I know many people hated Claremont's 'Forever' but I enjoyed a lot of it. I loved the power switch between Rogue and Nightcrawler. Not just because I found how they dealt with their new situations entertaining but it and gave Kurt and Anna some good bonding moments.

And there is this moment, albeit cheesy. The proud, loving mama is not going to be something we will see now I don't think. Even after X-Men Blue, though redeemed a bit, at least to the writers, I can't see Raven being this way.

LOL.



Anyway, back to Gambit/Rogue

I think it was disappointing for a lot of people because people either expected 90s nostalgia or Claremont using his actual plans he had intended but we either didn't get those plans or we got rather warped versions of them like a neutered Dark Wolverine Saga. Once you get past the expectations and see it more for alternate reality shenanigans, it's actually kinda fun. I remember Evil Storm/Perfect Storm was what confused me the most the first time around especially because her plot was such a slow burn.

The Rogue/Kurt/Mystique content was great although I wondered why he couldn't have done this in the main X-Books before he left. He'd been hinting at Kurt's origin since DOFP and UXM 204 was originally supposed to feature his origin, or more insight into his backstory anyway, before it get retooled for some reason. The Kurt/Rogue power swap was definitely odd though. I don't think I'd care much for that in the 616 universe but I don't mind it so much in an alternate reality and it was interesting to see how Rogue and Kurt both had insecurities about their initial powersets and the limitations imposed on them and now those were gone but they had new ones to deal with. Now Rogue could be touched but would someone want to touch her? I agree, Mystique's thought bubble isn't the most in character there but I think this was also coming after she was exposed for having a very fractured mind.

I don't think there was even a single Rogue/Gambit moment, or not a significant one anyway. That was very hard to digest especially when Kitty took over Rogue's part.

[Hi-Fi]

Kordey had great panel composition and the characters were always doing something in the background. He's a really good storyteller and I shall not hear otherwise!

Actually, X-Treme X-Men's second half is much superior than the first to me (Intifada and Prisioner of Fire are my favorites arc from that entire run).

[DearMachine]

Kordey had great panel composition and the characters were always doing something in the background. He's a really good storyteller and I shall not hear otherwise!

Actually, X-Treme X-Men's second half is much superior than the first to me (Intifada and Prisioner of Fire are my favorites arc from that entire run).

I will always defend Kordey too. He carried the X-line on his back for a while. Whenever an artist was behind, they would give it to him, and he would get it out the door on time. It led to some less than amazing art, but I will always respect him for being a professional who got the job done.

[Nox Noctes]

I like very specific styles of art, and his didn't appeal to me. *shrugs* To each their own.

[Grunty]

I know many people hated Claremont's 'Forever' but I enjoyed a lot of it. I loved the power switch between Rogue and Nightcrawler. Not just because I found how they dealt with their new situations entertaining but it and gave Kurt and Anna some good bonding moments.

And there is this moment, albeit cheesy. The proud, loving mama is not going to be something we will see now I don't think. Even after X-Men Blue, though redeemed a bit, at least to the writers, I can't see Raven being this way.

*pics*

The big problem for X-men Forever was arguably that it's hyped up premise of "what if Claremont had not left in 1992" was basicly unachievable.

First.
They could never bring back the Claremont that he was back then or the wider world around him (including the chaos and mess going on at Marvel in the late 80's and early 90's).

So even if his ideas were supposedly all from back in 1992, he was 15+ years older and had gone through a decade of being bitter and disappointed with how the X-men had developed under other writers.
This even affected his role as editorial director during the late 90's where his still lingering attachment to the X-men made the situation created by Bob Harras even worse. Basicly everything was second guessed by Harras and then second guessed again by Claremont before it passed, even though he wasn't supposed to be involved anymore.
Which means even after his departure from writing, people were still reading X-men comics affected by him. Not to forget that by 2000 he was back and directly affecting the direction of the titles allready shaped by others.

Which makes it unsuprising that certain choices made in Forever where clearly affected by developments of the 90's and early 00's.

Second.
They gave him ONE title to simulate an environment that at the time was allready affected by multiple satelite titles, most not written by him, but involving characters and developments which he would have to respect or acknowledge sooner or later by force or necessity.

Even if he had stayed long enough until Jim Lee had departed for Image, there would have still been X-force, X-factor, Generation X, Excalibur and Wolverine to account for and their respective writers might have not liked him interfering in their works and longterm plans.

He declares he is going to kill Wolverine, but Larry Hama still has plans for him, so the editor says no and Wolverine lives.
He declares he wants Kitty, Kurt and Collosus back but Warren Ellis still has plans for them, the editor puts a veto in and the plan is gone. Kitty, Nightcrawler and Collosus can't be used for another 3 years. Forcing Claremeont to make other plans and maybe he suddently likes those more.
Etc.

Third.
Speaking of the editor. Regardless of who would have been in charge. They would have likely not allowed for his plans to either happen at all or only with serious modifications. As has been the case in all the previous years he worked for Marvel.

Yet Forever was based on the idea of what his ideas would have looked like unaltered, something that never happend even during his famous 16 year run.

Finaly.
The same idea of the writer having changed with the times applies to the readers aswell. They too have aged and saw the developments that happend without him or which he introduced on top of their changes and quite a few of them were actualy things they enjoyed.

So. Metaphorical speaking:
People got 1992 era ingridients, by a 2009 Claremeont, without the head of the kitchen interfering and served "raw".

So it's no suprise that it ultimately disappointed too many people, while those who liked that particular taste were a minority that could not sustain it.

[PeachFlavoredXanax]

The clip for tonight’s episode just dropped. spoilers:

Rogue is pissed, going ham on a military base.

end of spoilers