Oh My Stars and Garters! Hank McCoy, the Beast Appreciation 2024!

[KurtW95]

Marvel would be smart to give Englehart a Beast series. As he loves the character (refers to him as his old pal) and wrote the character's first and longest kind of solo series with Amazing Adventures.

[Refrax5]

I feel like it was Morrison who really screwed up Beast's characterization. He screwed up characterization with a lot of people. Cyclops and Jean too. He made Scott a cheater and Jean kind of just a mean person. But I saw a recent interview, where he was talking about Hank. And he was talking about how he loves that the character is bipolar and lives between being very cheerful and very dark and disturbed. And I'm like, you don't understand the character at all. Not to swipe people with mental illness, but Hank was never like that at all until Morrison started writing him and he became a dumb cat or dog when Sanders was drawing him. But as I was saying, it was the turn of many of the characters from heroic figures with flaws aiming to live up to a great ideal to scummy people giving up on the ideal. Which evolved to embracing the opposite of the ideal.

Eh, everything Morrison wrote with Scott was baked into the character already (he was made a cheater in the 80s btw) and his brooding and repressed demons and trauma were always there. The uptight, disciplined, boy scout persona being a sort of defense mechanism to keep his darker emotion under control (also reflecting his struggle to keep his powers under control) is what makes Scott interesting.

Also, he'd just spent a long period of time with Apocalypse inside his mind and soul, showing him his own darker nature and it changed him. Morrison didn't even come up with that idea. In Eve of Destruction prior to Morrison, Logan comments on how Scott's changed since being possessed.

Honestly, as a longtime Cyclops fan, Scott's evolution from Morrison's run to being an embattled mutant leader to an outlaw revolutionary is some of the best character development Marvel has ever done with a character. Of course, Hickman threw all that away, but man, I loved Scott's development and it felt very natural and believable to me.

Beast becoming so miserable and unlikable over the years? That I always hated and never understood. I didn't dislike him under Morrison, but more the Utopia era and the Bendis era and so forth. I never understood if they were making him so awful on purpose or why they would do so. I used to love Beast so much.

It kind of ruins the whole already dubious "resurrection" protocols if there's two versions of him running around now.

[Refrax5]

I'm feeling pretty bummed now. What some posters said a few pages ago, that both of the Beasts active now are not the real ones, just clones, with the real one killed by Wolverine last year. So the real Beast is gone forever. I really hope the upcoming reboot is going to fix this, because I don't even feel like coming back here anymore.

Pretty much how I've always felt about the Krakoa "resurrection" stuff. If you've made a copy of the person's mind in Cerebro that exists simultaneously with the real person, then the resurrected mutant can't be the same person. It's basically a new body with a digital copy of an earlier version of their mind placed in it. Theoretically, you could make an army of Beasts or Wolverines or whoever. They're clones. They're essentially indistinguishable from the originals, but all of the original X-Men are dead and replaced by clones now, including Wolverine.

It's one of the things that turned me off about the Krakoa stuff. It was a lot of high concept stuff that made no sense when held up to any logical scrutiny. As a result, a ton of bad characterization and dead X-Men resulted.

But people liked the idea of a polyamorous mutant society and Apocalypse in a suit so they just ignored how nothing made any sense and Marvel killed off all the original X-Men.

It's a huge bummer and why I'm pretty much done reading the 616 X-Men barring some massive retcon.

[D.Z]

I think they wanted him to slowly match up with AOA Beast. Nothing that can't be undone.

[Refrax5]

I think they wanted him to slowly match up with AOA Beast. Nothing that can't be undone.

Well, like I said, the actual Beast has been dead for a while and these are just clones so I kinda doubt Marvel cares that much.

[MechaJeanix]

I'm feeling pretty bummed now. What some posters said a few pages ago, that both of the Beasts active now are not the real ones, just clones, with the real one killed by Wolverine last year. So the real Beast is gone forever. I really hope the upcoming reboot is going to fix this, because I don't even feel like coming back here anymore.

Beast died even before being killed by Wolverine. I don't recall the exact X-force issue but it was the one that Sage snapped his neck because he had been compromised. I think that was his first death and resurrection in the Hickman era. Someone will provide the X-force issue number.

These are the real characters though. Recall the early scene in X-force with Jean and Beast, resurrection is a science but it is also a belief system. Plus JDW says they are the real ones, and like others have pointed out even Captain America and others have been put through the resurrection process. Many of the popular characters have been through it - Scott, Jean, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Emma Frost, etc. Magneto had been through it earlier (recounted by a data page if I remember correctly - maybe in Inferno when the data page talks about him trying to destroy the Orchis Forge near the Sun).

I think Storm is among a handful of characters not to have died and been resurrected during the Krakoan age.

Right now there are just two Beasts like there were with Laura.

You just have to roll with it lol

[DurararaFTW]

Beast died even before being killed by Wolverine. I don't recall the exact X-force issue but it was the one that Sage snapped his neck because he had been compromised. I think that was his first death and resurrection in the Hickman era. Someone will provide the X-force issue number.

These are the real characters though. Recall the early scene in X-force with Jean and Beast, resurrection is a science but it is also a belief system. Plus JDW says they are the real ones, and like others have pointed out even Captain America and others have been put through the resurrection process. Many of the popular characters have been through it - Scott, Jean, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Emma Frost, etc. Magneto had been through it earlier (recounted by a data page if I remember correctly - maybe in Inferno when the data page talks about him trying to destroy the Orchis Forge near the Sun).

I think Storm is among a handful of characters not to have died and been resurrected during the Krakoan age.

Right now there are just two Beasts like there were with Laura.

You just have to roll with it lol

But resurrection is meant to be more then just cloning. Mr Sinister can send one of his bodies to die in Otherworld, then download a brainscan into a clone body and that would be fine. There is no continiuty of existence so there so reason to care. Someone that died on Otherworld cannot be resurrected by the Five as they were irrespective of the brainscan or bloodsample for cloning that is used. Proteus and Hope's reality warping does more then just produce a functional clone body based on a person's DNA for the Cerebro scan to be downloaded into. An aspect of their being needs to be retrieved after they died that makes them more then the sum of their parts. The clones of Beast and Wolverine that show up in Percy's books made in Beast's walking zombie body base with the Cerebro Sword should scew closer to Mr Sinister's side of the spectrum then the Fives.

[Mungho]

Beast died even before being killed by Wolverine. I don't recall the exact X-force issue but it was the one that Sage snapped his neck because he had been compromised. I think that was his first death and resurrection in the Hickman era. Someone will provide the X-force issue number.

These are the real characters though. Recall the early scene in X-force with Jean and Beast, resurrection is a science but it is also a belief system. Plus JDW says they are the real ones, and like others have pointed out even Captain America and others have been put through the resurrection process. Many of the popular characters have been through it - Scott, Jean, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Emma Frost, etc. Magneto had been through it earlier (recounted by a data page if I remember correctly - maybe in Inferno when the data page talks about him trying to destroy the Orchis Forge near the Sun).

I think Storm is among a handful of characters not to have died and been resurrected during the Krakoan age.

Right now there are just two Beasts like there were with Laura.

You just have to roll with it lol

But neither of the current Beasts have been through the proper resurrection protocols. Bad-Beast in his on personal base, and the good-Beast that Sage made in the arctic base. Hope and Proteus do something that makes these the original with their soul. These Beasts haven't been through that.

But resurrection is meant to be more then just cloning. Mr Sinister can send one of his bodies to die in Otherworld, then download a brainscan into a clone body and that would be fine. There is no continiuty of existence so there so reason to care. Someone that died on Otherworld cannot be resurrected by the Five as they were irrespective of the brainscan or bloodsample for cloning that is used. Proteus and Hope's reality warping does more then just produce a functional clone body based on a person's DNA for the Cerebro scan to be downloaded into. An aspect of their being needs to be retrieved after they died that makes them more then the sum of their parts. The clones of Beast and Wolverine that show up in Percy's books made in Beast's walking zombie body base with the Cerebro Sword should scew closer to Mr Sinister's side of the spectrum then the Fives.

This is what I've realized and what has me dispirited. I'm hoping now for some sort of reset or retcon so that this never happened.

[D.Z]

Whoever has the proper soul is the real one. Both could just be clones though.

[Refrax5]

Beast died even before being killed by Wolverine. I don't recall the exact X-force issue but it was the one that Sage snapped his neck because he had been compromised. I think that was his first death and resurrection in the Hickman era. Someone will provide the X-force issue number.

These are the real characters though. Recall the early scene in X-force with Jean and Beast, resurrection is a science but it is also a belief system. Plus JDW says they are the real ones, and like others have pointed out even Captain America and others have been put through the resurrection process. Many of the popular characters have been through it - Scott, Jean, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Emma Frost, etc. Magneto had been through it earlier (recounted by a data page if I remember correctly - maybe in Inferno when the data page talks about him trying to destroy the Orchis Forge near the Sun).

I think Storm is among a handful of characters not to have died and been resurrected during the Krakoan age.

Right now there are just two Beasts like there were with Laura.

You just have to roll with it lol

The science was explained, though. It's a digital copy of their memories that's placed in a clone body. They can and have used it to make multiple versions of characters, so they can't be the originals.

And yeah, that means the majority of the original X-Men characters are dead and replaced by clones. So is Cap. That's a part of why I bailed on the Hickman stuff. It came off as very clever and high concept, but none of it made much sense if you thought about it.

[MechaJeanix]

The science was explained, though. It's a digital copy of their memories that's placed in a clone body. They can and have used it to make multiple versions of characters, so they can't be the originals.

And yeah, that means the majority of the original X-Men characters are dead and replaced by clones. So is Cap. That's a part of why I bailed on the Hickman stuff. It came off as very clever and high concept, but none of it made much sense if you thought about it.

Yes, I am aware. But if you recall Hickman used as inspiration that time Xavier was saved by putting his mind in a cloned body (which was by Claremont all those years ago. The "soul" of the mutant follows them basically. Hickman talked about that too in an interview at one time.

You just have to believe it because our mutants do. "What men believe is real, is real in it's consequences" to paraphrase W. I. Thomas.

Recall even the waiting room aka Wanda's doing. The mutant souls or whatever is backed up there - along with "who they are" (i.e. their memories/minds which is basically in real life what our "souls" are but that's another discussion).


Also, yeah I kind of forgot that Beast had his own resurrection process going on. He's so sly lol Hopefully all is resolved with his story very soon. When does the next issue come out again?

[Refrax5]

Yes, I am aware. But if you recall Hickman used as inspiration that time Xavier was saved by putting his mind in a cloned body (which was by Claremont all those years ago. The "soul" of the mutant follows them basically. Hickman talked about that too in an interview at one time.

You just have to believe it because our mutants do. "What men believe is real, is real in it's consequences" to paraphrase W. I. Thomas.

Recall even the waiting room aka Wanda's doing. The mutant souls or whatever is backed up there - along with "who they are" (i.e. their memories/minds which is basically in real life what our "souls" are but that's another discussion).


Also, yeah I kind of forgot that Beast had his own resurrection process going on. He's so sly lol Hopefully all is resolved with his story very soon. When does the next issue come out again?

What the characters believe isn't totally relevant and there was an issue where Nightcrawler questioned the exact thing I am. The clones WOULD think they're the originals because they'd have all of the memories of them up to a certain point. But the original person would have died and lost awareness forever. If I die, and you created a duplicate of me, I'll never know about it. I don't wake up in that other person's body or wake up at all, so whoever is alive with my memories isn't me. There's no continuation of my consciousness. Saying "well the memories make us who we are" isn't really accurate since we lose memories all the time. People act like there's no real difference between the original and the Clone because they have the same memories, but it's a big difference to the person that's dead and gone forever.

I can accept that whatever the resurrection process is somehow brings their soul or essence back, but it's poorly explained in the story and doesn't make sense when there's two Lauras running around.

I don't know if I personally believe in the existence of a soul in the real world, but it very much does exist in the Marvel Universe. And I don't think any of us can really define what would constitute a soul in real life and when I think of what we know about memory or people with brain damage or dementia, I don't think memories alone make a person who they are.

[Ogrebear]

I am thinking the hunt for Moria and her death before her powers kick in will reset the timeline and Orchis, the Island, resurrections, and Bad Beast will all be Bobby Ewing in the shower…. Retconed away back to the time the school still stood…

[DragonsChi]

What the characters believe isn't totally relevant and there was an issue where Nightcrawler questioned the exact thing I am. The clones WOULD think they're the originals because they'd have all of the memories of them up to a certain point. But the original person would have died and lost awareness forever. If I die, and you created a duplicate of me, I'll never know about it. I don't wake up in that other person's body or wake up at all, so whoever is alive with my memories isn't me. There's no continuation of my consciousness. Saying "well the memories make us who we are" isn't really accurate since we lose memories all the time. People act like there's no real difference between the original and the Clone because they have the same memories, but it's a big difference to the person that's dead and gone forever.

I can accept that whatever the resurrection process is somehow brings their soul or essence back, but it's poorly explained in the story and doesn't make sense when there's two Lauras running around.

I don't know if I personally believe in the existence of a soul in the real world, but it very much does exist in the Marvel Universe. And I don't think any of us can really define what would constitute a soul in real life and when I think of what we know about memory or people with brain damage or dementia, I don't think memories alone make a person who they are.

I agree with most of everything you said here. I hate retcons with a passion but this era is one I wouldn't mind one, mostly for some of the reasons you listed here.

Someone needs to come in with a story where the "real" X-Men come back and is upset with some of the things the current X-Men have done in there name and they try to stop them or something. Make the Current/Clone X-Men Bizzaro versions of the team. I'm full Clone Saga with this era of the team, I would not care at all with how bad it is.

[Mungho]

I am thinking the hunt for Moria and her death before her powers kick in will reset the timeline and Orchis, the Island, resurrections, and Bad Beast will all be Bobby Ewing in the shower…. Retconed away back to the time the school still stood…

I think that would make too many people angry. I would be happy if it was just Percy's run that was retconned/ignored.

I liked the idea of Krakoa at first. But you can understand why I became soured on the whole concept. I would have enjoyed a lot more if Hank had been partying and having fun with all the other X-Men, maybe finding himself and trying to be happier.