Oh My Stars and Garters! Hank McCoy, the Beast Appreciation 2024!

[Walking Wake]

I think that would make too many people angry. I would be happy if it was just Percy's run that was retconned/ignored.

I liked the idea of Krakoa at first. But you can understand why I became soured on the whole concept. I would have enjoyed a lot more if Hank had been partying and having fun with all the other X-Men, maybe finding himself and trying to be happier.

Yup, that's ultimately it really. Trying to catch up on all this Hank mess in tandem with catching up on Krakoa just as it's "ending" and seeing all the arguments for and against certain elements and whether stuff should stay or go really just boils down to "did enough of your faves get treated well during this era?" and that's true of every era. I can objectively see the good elements of Krakoa that has made it some folk's favorite era, I really can. Especially with how much it means to LGBTQ folk and others. And yes, a big point that hurts is that old Hank would've, could've and should've been a huge part of the positivity of this era as old Hank's character was ripe for the positives that the era brought out. But with what Percy did to instead accelerate Hank down a dark path to the point of an irredeemable monster jerk to the characters and readers, I can never, ever look positively at this era.

[Refrax5]

I agree with most of everything you said here. I hate retcons with a passion but this era is one I wouldn't mind one, mostly for some of the reasons you listed here.

Someone needs to come in with a story where the "real" X-Men come back and is upset with some of the things the current X-Men have done in there name and they try to stop them or something. Make the Current/Clone X-Men Bizzaro versions of the team. I'm full Clone Saga with this era of the team, I would not care at all with how bad it is.

I don't like wholly invalidating stories that people have invested money in by saying "oh, these characters weren't the real ones" because it feels like a bit of a cheat. It would be nice if they made it very explicit how these are not clones or even that Xavier or Sinister had tampered with their recreated selves to explain why everybody was so cult-like and pliant to Xavier's "mutant culture."

I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I personally don't want it to be wiped out of continuity, because I know a lot of people value those stories and I don't like to see people swindled out of their money or stories they love. But I wouldn't mind some things being explained a bit better and having some questions resolved because so much of this era felt very poorly thought-out.

[Thundershot]

I only check this thread once or twice a month because it’s so depressing what Hank has become, and BAM, I’m reminded why I hated Morrison’s run so damned much. Not just Hank, but… everything..

[Mungho]

I don't like wholly invalidating stories that people have invested money in by saying "oh, these characters weren't the real ones" because it feels like a bit of a cheat. It would be nice if they made it very explicit how these are not clones or even that Xavier or Sinister had tampered with their recreated selves to explain why everybody was so cult-like and pliant to Xavier's "mutant culture."

I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I personally don't want it to be wiped out of continuity, because I know a lot of people value those stories and I don't like to see people swindled out of their money or stories they love. But I wouldn't mind some things being explained a bit better and having some questions resolved because so much of this era felt very poorly thought-out.

They've got to explain away certain things someway, or else Hank is simply destroyed as a character. As it stands, the real Hank was killed by Logan and is, presumably, burning in hell, which is a horrible thought that came to my mind today that upset me.

The easiest way to explain the Hank of X-Force, is that he lost his soul prior to Krakoa. There's several events where this could have easily happened, and not the long before Krakoa either. The revived Hank is the real one, maybe his soul was floating around desperate to tell X-Force that the bad one wasn't him, but couldn't actually manifest to tell them. When he saw the clone body, he realized this was his chance and hopped into it.

And even then, the many relationships bad-Hank has damaged, I don't know how they'll fix that unless they go with:

Real-Hank: It was an evil, soulless husk of me, it wasn't the real me.

Everyone: Oh, okay. Welcome back Hank!

[KurtW95]

New Krakoa is absolute garbage and all remnants of is needs to be destroyed.

[DurararaFTW]

The science was explained, though. It's a digital copy of their memories that's placed in a clone body. They can and have used it to make multiple versions of characters, so they can't be the originals.

And yeah, that means the majority of the original X-Men characters are dead and replaced by clones. So is Cap. That's a part of why I bailed on the Hickman stuff. It came off as very clever and high concept, but none of it made much sense if you thought about it.

It isn't though. They have no shortage of digital copies of Rockslide's mind and no shortages of genetic material to make a clone body to put them into. They CANNOT make or recreate Rockslide as he was at any point before he died in Otherworld through the Resurrection protocols regardless of the sample or cerebro scan used. Whether that is the soul or not, there is continuity of something between the person that died and the person waking up from the Resurrection protocols beyond copies of this and that that you blithly choosing to ignore.

[Refrax5]

It isn't though. They have no shortage of digital copies of Rockslide's mind and no shortages of genetic material to make a clone body to put them into. They CANNOT make or recreate Rockslide as he was at any point before he died in Otherworld through the Resurrection protocols regardless of the sample or cerebro scan used. Whether that is the soul or not, there is continuity of something between the person that died and the person waking up from the Resurrection protocols beyond copies of this and that that you blithly choosing to ignore.

Im not ignoring that and I agree there's some merit to that being evidence of it being more than a simple clone. So was the other Laura created by a different process? I know there's two of them now. Is that somehow different than the weird mindless Wolverine doubles? Were those made differently? I checked out a while ago so I haven't read those issues.

[Refrax5]

They've got to explain away certain things someway, or else Hank is simply destroyed as a character. As it stands, the real Hank was killed by Logan and is, presumably, burning in hell, which is a horrible thought that came to my mind today that upset me.

The easiest way to explain the Hank of X-Force, is that he lost his soul prior to Krakoa. There's several events where this could have easily happened, and not the long before Krakoa either. The revived Hank is the real one, maybe his soul was floating around desperate to tell X-Force that the bad one wasn't him, but couldn't actually manifest to tell them. When he saw the clone body, he realized this was his chance and hopped into it.

And even then, the many relationships bad-Hank has damaged, I don't know how they'll fix that unless they go with:

Real-Hank: It was an evil, soulless husk of me, it wasn't the real me.

Everyone: Oh, okay. Welcome back Hank!

Yeah, I agree that something will have to be done to salvage Beast's character. Right now, I'm just happy that there's alternate versions of Beast (like the movie version and the animated version) that remained the guy I like.

[DragonsChi]

I don't like wholly invalidating stories that people have invested money in by saying "oh, these characters weren't the real ones" because it feels like a bit of a cheat. It would be nice if they made it very explicit how these are not clones or even that Xavier or Sinister had tampered with their recreated selves to explain why everybody was so cult-like and pliant to Xavier's "mutant culture."

I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I personally don't want it to be wiped out of continuity, because I know a lot of people value those stories and I don't like to see people swindled out of their money or stories they love. But I wouldn't mind some things being explained a bit better and having some questions resolved because so much of this era felt very poorly thought-out.

You know what…thank you for this. Your right it would the aftermath of just wiping stories some people were invested in has never turned out good long run.

I agree, this Era of the X-Men had so many villains that any one of them could have had a back door dealing with messing with the X-Men. Heck all of them could easily be written to have been working together. Fingers crossed that someone takes this Era by the reigns to change things around.

[DurararaFTW]

Im not ignoring that and I agree there's some merit to that being evidence of it being more than a simple clone. So was the other Laura created by a different process? I know there's two of them now. Is that somehow different than the weird mindless Wolverine doubles? Were those made differently? I checked out a while ago so I haven't read those issues.

You can make copies of living people, not of people that died in Otherworld. Evidently that thing, the soul or whatever you wanna call it can be shared but once it's changed, it's changed forever.

Also Laura is a clone to begin with.

[Refrax5]

You can make copies of living people, not of people that died in Otherworld. Evidently that thing, the soul or whatever you wanna call it can be shared but once it's changed, it's changed forever.

Also Laura is a clone to begin with.

Well, right, but she's still a living being with her own consciousness and presumably soul. Spider-Man's clones all have their own souls and aren't the same people.

The idea of two people simultaneously sharing a soul seems like flimsy conjecture rather than anything in the text, just like Wolverine and Nightcrawler saying they'd see each other in the Afterlife before dying on a mission at one point or Nightcrawler questioning if they are just replicas of the people they think they are. They never explain why someone dying in the otherworld would prevent them from being restored, as far as I know. People are just assuming it has something to do with the soul.

That's my point. It's inconsistent and poorly explained. If two people can exist simultaneously like that, they pretty much, by definition, cannot be the same person. It's more a copy machine for people than a resurrection process in that case.

And why are Wolverine's doubles drooling idiots?

None of it makes any sense.

[Refrax5]

You know what…thank you for this. Your right it would the aftermath of just wiping stories some people were invested in has never turned out good long run.

I agree, this Era of the X-Men had so many villains that any one of them could have had a back door dealing with messing with the X-Men. Heck all of them could easily be written to have been working together. Fingers crossed that someone takes this Era by the reigns to change things around.

Oh, I've had stories I've loved get retconned out of existence or had characters I loved turn out to be imposters and it always is super depressing so even if I dislike the Krakoa era personally, I don't want anyone to be robbed of a story or character that meant something to them or the money they spent to read about them.

[Ogrebear]

IMG_8794.jpg

Seems we do have a Heroic Beast going forward into the next era, which is good news, but how do we get there?

Edit: no glasses either. On a team with Juggy, Prof Magneto, and Cyclops!

Details: https://screenrant.com/new-x-men-com...y-exceptional/

[Walking Wake]

IMG_8794.jpg

Seems we do have a Heroic Beast going forward into the next era, which is good news, but how do we get there?

Edit: no glasses either. On a team with Juggy, Prof Magneto, and Cyclops!

Details: https://screenrant.com/new-x-men-com...y-exceptional/

Until there's some official word otherwise (or they just wait until X-Force 50), I'm still cautious as it's honestly hard to tell whether that's good Defenders Hank or still bad Hank. It's almost like gee, what a stupid idea for them to have had bad Hank be reborn right as X-Force was winding down! At least for the visual difference alone of different body shape and missing eye, bad Hank should've just stayed as he was till the conclusion. If this is bad Hank trying to "atone" for his sins after X-Force 50 kills good Hank then I actually really am done with the books because that approach will simply NEVER work. The fans will never forgive bad Hank no matter what. So fingers crossed that good Hank lives.

[Frontier]

Jed Mackay writing Beast and the '97 show featuring him prominently? Things are looking better .